Heads-up: VW "Lifetime" auto transmission fluid (baloney!!!)

[tjm]

ok....here we go. glad i stumbled upon this thread.

I have a 99 1/2 vw golf 2.0 with an automatic....i have 140k on the car. the first engine died at 125k. I couldn't afford to swap in a real motor, so i had a low mileage (3k) 2.0 installed by a replacement shop. when it came to the transmission, the shop told me that i shouldn't have to replace the tranny, but if it was shifting rough (which it was) I should just have it serviced, which meant new filter and fluid. i agreed.

when it came time to service the trans, the engine replacement shop sent it to VW, they said they used a "vacuum system" to service it, which I now understand could be the ole "power flush" method....shifted fine when i got it back....20k miles later i have a groaning transmission that still shifts fine, but is a little wet under the pan. I want to do something about this.

I decided I was going to service the transmission myself. I went to the dealer to get a replacement fill plug, some fluid and a filter.....the only thing they stock is the fluid.....figures......I have a haynes manual and a VAG-Com trial setup at this point. I would love to get a bentley manual, but i'm too busy spending money on other issues with this car (besides the transmission) to afford the bentley stuff at this time.

can anyone give me clear direction on how to diagnose and service the transmission on my car? i assume I may be losing fluid because of the "groaning noise", either that or the dealer didn't fill it correctly in the first place.

[Cadenza_7o]

DaFabolous2.0 -

You may want to consider doing a second drain & refill since 1/2 of the old ATF was stuck in the torque converter. Make sure you check that the fluid level is correct. Slipping and harsh shifting are usually signs of low fluid and/or fluid contamination, which can screw up the normal operation of the valvebody.

As for the the final drive lube, Bentley doesn't indicate any special tool to remove the speedo drive-gear. You should be able to tell by taking a close look.

[Cadenza_7o]

tjm -

Power flushing a high mileage auto tranny like yours can bring negative results, especially if they didn't drop/clean the pan & replace the filter. The pressure can dislodge shavings, friction materials and contaminants from the pan as well as the torque converter, and circulate them into the gears and valvebody and clogs the filter. Many trannies have failed after a power flush.

Parts: Scroll back and download the pdf file by Drivbiwire. His report & photos are pretty clear. Has all the tools and parts list too. If there's leakage at around the pan, the rubber gasket is too dry. You need a new one. ECS Tuning has a kit (see photos). Haynes may be sufficient but Bentley is not expensive. I got mine on Ebay at half the price.

Groaning... Hard to say. Low fluid or contaminated fluid can cause noises and rough shifting. When you replace the filter and refill new ATF, make sure you have the correct amount.

[tjm]

thanks for the info...guess i missed the pdf link above, but i found it.

btw...my tranny shifts fine, i just get a groaning noise much like you'd get from a power steering pump....I am used to working on older cars without rack and pinion, and when the fluid is low on those they groan....closest thing i can think of that illustrates the sound i'm hearing....once the car warms up it usually quiets down a bit, but is still present....maybe it's not my tranny and it's the pump or the rack...I'll get into it and find out.

I'm going to service the tranny per the pdf whether it's the cause of the groaning or not, just because mine has high miles and i know the dealer just power flushed it, which makes absolutely no sense to me....i bought a late model car to avoid this crap, but vw service sucks so much that i have no choice but to take matters into my own hands. this is not a hobby for me, i'm doing this out of necessity.

thanks for the info! ....guess i'll hunt down a bentley cd rom too...i am assuming that e-bay might be the best source from a cost standpoint?

[baomo]

Just an update. I changed my fluid/filter, havent driven very much but it seems to shift alot smoother. I took pictures of the change, my friend borrowed my camera but when I get it back I'll post them.
I can't believe how dirty the fluid was. Well you'll see.
Oh yea I have the Hayes for a MKIII, its good for some jobs like brakes but the chapter on automatic transmission is like 2 pages and basically says to service at the dealer.
I don't think I mentioned before my trans is a CLK. I was looking through my glove box and I came across the Maintenance book that was hiding behind the owners manual and took a look at it. It said to change the automatic transmission fluid every 40,000 . I called VWoA and spoke with someone there and they said that the fluid is lifetime but agreed that the life-span is the duration of the warranty beyond that is the owners problem and 40,000 was for a non-sealed trans. I remember calling the dealer around 60,000 and being convinced that this was a lifetime deal. I knew it wasn't right but what can you do, wish I had found vwvortex or Cadenza_7o back then.
Yea I think I'm going to change it again maybe in 8000 to 10000 miles, since I only diluted the old fluid with what was in torque converter.

[DaFabolous2.0]

i also have a CLK tranny and some books that i've been doing some research about the tranny service, it states, have the dealer or s quailified technican do the job

i see all the DIY's and they get great results

[DaFabolous2.0]

Quote, originally posted by Cadenza_7o »

DaFabolous2.0 - You may want to consider doing a second drain & refill since 1/2 of the old ATF was stuck in the torque converter. Make sure you check that the fluid level is correct. Slipping and harsh shifting are usually signs of low fluid and/or fluid contamination, which can screw up the normal operation of the valvebody. As for the the final drive lube, Bentley doesn't indicate any special tool to remove the speedo drive-gear. You should be able to tell by taking a close look.

its too late...i was asking cause im gonna do a tranny service for someone and i just wanted to be sure

my tranny got fried, so its gonna get rebuilt, i tried another fluid change, but it didnt work out great

[Cadenza_7o]

DaFabolous2.0 - Sorry to hear about your tranny.

tjm - I would repeat the process just to get more of the bad stuff out. It may or may not solve the "groaning" but low and dirty fluid can cause noises. BTW, I got the paper copy of the Bentley manual for 1/2 price on Ebay. CD is good too but I often do work on many things at once so flipping the pages with dirty fingers is better than smudging my laptop.

FrankBeauregarde - I'd like to see the photos you took. Good to hear you noticed an improvement. Another drain-n-fill should help even further. I'm planning to do one as well in 10k, which brings my fluid ratio to 75% new, 25% old. If I had known that an ATF & filter change was possible at the time of purchase, I would have done a break-in fluid change at 5k. 40k/2yr is a good maintenance interval.

VW's claim of a "sealed tranny" is B.S. Of course, we know that now. Technically, there's no dipstick but it's NOT sealed. Like all trannies, there's a vent to allow hot gas/vapor to escape when it's hot. Without one the pressure can easily blow the rubber seals at high temps. And of course, there's always a way of draining and filling the pan. This "100k miles w/o tune-up" seems to be the industry marketing standard.

I was browsing the Touareg Forum and read a few posts regarding the "low" maintenance schedule. People seems to swallow the "sealed & lifetime" ATF like fine Swiss chocolate. The drivetrain on this vehicle is complex and VERY expensive... I've heard close to $9-$10k to replace. These guys are awaiting a RUDE AWAKENING!!! VW bless them!


Modified by Cadenza_7o at 10:54 AM 11-5-2003

[Cadenza_7o]

sjoback did a "drain & refill" for his 09A 5-sp Tiptronic.

Here's his report and photos: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1093467

[DaFabolous2.0]

i was wondering today, about the torque converter, the old fluid being there...i heard that once you have the pan remove, you can have the car running for like 1 minute so that all the fluid in the converter will come out of the valve body, and im wondering if it is safe at all doing

like i said earlier in one of my posts, im doing a tranny job coming up soon at tech school and i told my teacher about this, showing all the posts and the lies that vw is saying and wants to do his fast and i dont want to mess up, i wanna be clear in some areas so that im sure or else i get a bad grade , so far i got an A, only A in the class

[DaFabolous2.0]

BTW...

i still have the old tranny fluid in my garage (in a container of course) and i took pics of it this morning...

you guys are gonna get a kick out of the pics once you see them, but i gotta find the camera , im gonna post them up tomorrow

[Cadenza_7o]

Quote »

i was wondering today, about the torque converter, the old fluid being there...i heard that once you have the pan remove, you can have the car running for like 1 minute so that all the fluid in the converter will come out of the valve body, and im wondering if it is safe at all doing

That's sound risky! I'm not an expert so I have to defer this question to a "VW-trained tech"... hehe...

Quote »

like i said earlier in one of my posts, im doing a tranny job coming up soon at tech school and i told my teacher about this, showing all the posts and the lies that vw is saying and wants to do his fast and i dont want to mess up, i wanna be clear in some areas so that im sure or else i get a bad grade, so far i got an A, only A in the class

It would be cool to have his opinion on the industry's current standard of "low" or "zero" maintenance on transmissions. Hey, are you going to tear down the tranny yourself? Good luck with that A!

Quote »

i still have the old tranny fluid in my garage (in a container of course) and i took pics of it this morning... you guys are gonna get a kick out of the pics once you see them, but i gotta find the camera, im gonna post them up tomorrow

do post them... and state the miles the oil had. Thanks!

[Nason]

On some authority from a VW technical trainer "Lifetime means 100k miles..."

BTW, not my teacher, but my co-worker.


Modified by Nason at 10:54 AM 11-10-2003

[baomo]

I would have to agree that running the torque converter dry is a bad idea. Ask your teacher what they think of it.
I am going to change again in 8000 to 10000 since I have neglected it for so long. My change was at 102k.
Maybe I'll do it sooner I'm planing a long trip VA -> AZ. Are you going to rebuild yours I've seen some rebuild kits for like $600, Oh well good luck.

[Holden McRoin]

I had similar troubles at 80K and also tried to correct this by having one drain and fill, and then another with a filter and gasket change. About 2 months later the stealership said the tranny had to be replaced with---a VW factory REBUILD with no warranty! A rip-off beyond belief.
In the course of this trial, I've been told everything in the above thread and I can only say what I KNOW to be true:
Most transmission shops will NOT touch a VW for either replacement or service.
TransTech fluid replacement machines do not fit on VW trannys without special fittings.
Only about 2 quarts of ATF drain out from dropping the pan.
VW OEM ATF is a rip-off since it isn't a true synthethic.
VW dealers do not fix trannys unless it to replace an electronic component, they simply replace the entire tranny!

[DaFabolous2.0]

i cant rebuild the tranny at tech cause we dont have the "special tools" that vw requires to take the tranny apart and so forth and plus we were debating about the rebuild in class and he says that we shouldnt take a risk of doing it cause hes not familar of vw trannies

as of now,i dont have time for the rebuild at the school, im rebuilding a chevy 350 with this kid (who owns the motor) putting vortec heads, edelbrock manifolds, holley carbs and so forth, we got it running, but we adjust the timing and fix the start up problem

the pics will be posted shortly, i gotta reinstall the program for the camera again


Modified by DaFabolous2.0 at 6:36 AM 11-7-2003

[DaFabolous2.0]

from what i been told by a "trained tech" was to run it for 10 second intervals, for at least 3 times and it wouldnt kill the converter

which its impossible to believe

[DaFabolous2.0]

and here are the pics

the exact mileage on the fluid is 88283 miles

when i did the fluid change (which i dont have pics of) i remember when i drained all the fluid out of the pan, there was at least a 1/4 inch of crap stuck on the pan, and i was surprised that the tranny was driving on that fluid for that long! but anyways, filled it up to where it has to be filled and drove fine, but still was slipping until a month ago it fried on the way home (the miles on the new fluid is 2669 miles, total miles on the car is 90952)

here are the pics:

on this pic, you can see the passage hole that fluid goes to the filter, i know the pic sucks, but i tried to make it better to see the crap inside of the filter

on this pic, its the other side of the filter, see how its all black and also the filter inside, how its all disgustingly dirty

and on this pic, this is the tranny fluid, 88283 miles out of it, its all black and on the bottom of the pan, as you can see on the pic, those little bubbles are actually metal shavings or chunks i should say from the tranny, and so basically it just crapped itself out

the victim of the "lifetime" tranny fluid

i dont have pics of the tranny fluid thats inside of the tranny now cause in a few hours i gotta clean my car out cause the tow truck is on its way to take it to the trans shop, but i can tell you, from sticking my finger inside the tubing, its black already...all i have to say to all you vw owners, get your tranny serviced at 30k miles, you guys dont want to take the risk of vw brainwashing your heads of this lifetime stuff, theres no such thing for anything, just believe in preventable maintience (however you spell that)



Modified by DaFabolous2.0 at 12:35 PM 11-7-2003

[baomo]

DaFabolous2.0 -
My fluid and filter look pretty much the same, I'll post my pics tomorrow or sun.
So was this change after it bombed out of gear or was it just slipping? I'm wondering if I should change mine again before I leave on 2600 mile trip or wait till after?
My car has been great I'm the original owner from 14 miles to now 102k I've never had any problems with my Golf aside from a wheel bearing going out and basic maintenance. But I'm sure the next one I get will be manual. I'd really hate to see this one go.

[DaFabolous2.0]

well if you would like just to be cautious, do it if you feel you need to...

my tranny started to slip with the original fluid, then it wouldnt go into gear...when i changed the fluid, it moved, but made a weird groaning noise and wouldnt move faster than 10 mph and it will rev freely but stays around 10 mph, but then it will "go" into gear, what im guessing is that for some reason, the clutches get stuck until it just catches the gears, it just got worse and worse, the last day i drove it, also the day the tranny died, it will just lose the gear, shut off the car, start it up again and leave it on first gear, if you were to upshift, then it will slip out of whack and wont engage into second gear, even before that problem, if i were to be driving in third gear, then downshifts to 2nd, it will lock up the wheels then goes to second gear, its like neutral bombing into the gear by itself


Modified by DaFabolous2.0 at 8:27 AM 11-7-2003

[Cadenza_7o]

DaFabolous2.0 -

Thanks for the pics. From your description, it sounds like your wet clutches had very little friction material left. Wet clutches works like a dry clutch plate, but there're more of them in an auto. These wet clutches, when worn down enough, slipping occurs and gear changes or engagement become rough and erratic. With that much friction material (1/4") deposited in the oil pan, the filter was most likely clogged and starved both the gears and valve-body of lubrication, and eventually led to overheating.

With my ATF & filter change, friction material coated the filter housing and the bottom of the oil pan. The thickest part was on the magnet strip - about 2mm.


Modified by Cadenza_7o at 1:47 AM 11-9-2003

[DaFabolous2.0]

bump

[Cadenza_7o]

Quote, originally posted by Nason »

On some authority from a VW technical trainer "Lifetime means 100k miles..."

Conveniently, 100k miles was where the "old" Powertrain Warranty cuts off. I wonder what they say now that the new warranty is 60k.

[DaFabolous2.0]

Quote, originally posted by Cadenza_7o »

Conveniently, 100k miles was where the "old" Powertrain Warranty cuts off. I wonder what they say now that the new warranty is 60k.

i thought it was 50k

[sjoback]

Quote, originally posted by DaFabolous2.0 »

i thought it was 50k

50k bumper to bumper, 60k for powertrain on current cars 02+ (not sure on earlier). thanks for sharing your pics and info

[DaFabolous2.0]

Quote, originally posted by Cadenza_7o »

DaFabolous2.0 - Thanks for the pics. From your description, it sounds like your wet clutches have very little friction material left. Wet clutches works like a dry clutch plate, but there're more of them in an auto. These wet clutches, when worn down enough, slipping occurs and gear changes or engagement become rough and erratic. With that much friction material (1/4") deposited in the oil pan, the filter was most likely clogged and starved both the gears and valve-body of lubrication, and eventually lead to overheating. With my ATF & filter change, friction material coated the filter housing and the bottom of the oil pan. The thickest part was on the magnet strip - about 2mm. Modified by Cadenza_7o at 2:00 PM 11-7-2003

YES!!! thats what exactly happened this one night i was driving around and my trans went out of whack and overheated (wondering that not only i fried my clutches, also that i fried my whole tranny?) exactly how you described it, then it went into "limp home" mode and surprisingly made it back, then the next day it just stop working...

im wondering, my reverse makes that feeling that it engaged to the gear, but then it doesnt move anywhere, so im guessing that my clutches were history...


Modified by DaFabolous2.0 at 5:50 PM 11-8-2003

[DaFabolous2.0]

Quote, originally posted by sjoback »

thanks for sharing your pics and info

no prob, glad to help

[DaFabolous2.0]

btw,

does anyone have links for changing the fluids on the manual tranny, i.e. 02A/020 tranny

[DaFabolous2.0]

one and one more thing i keep forgeting to tell you guys

i think you guys will be surprised from this...

i know a dealer that sells a dipstick kit for the 01M tranny and i even asked the parts manager about this, i forgot how much the kit was, but once i found out, ill let everyone know

[Cadenza_7o]

Quote, originally posted by DaFabolous2.0 »

i think you guys will be surprised from this... i know a dealer that sells a dipstick kit for the 01M tranny and i even asked the parts manager about this, i forgot how much the kit was, but once i found out, ill let everyone know

You're not pulling our chains, are you?

If it exists, please get the part number.

TIA

[DaFabolous2.0]

no dude, i dont like to joke around like serious issues like this one...

my teacher told me about it cause he called the dealer and wondered if they sell a kit, and the guy said they do

im gonna ask him again tomorrow to be sure of this

[Holden McRoin]

All I want to know is---how long is this dipstick from the plug to the end, and how high up is FULL? I'll make one out of a coffee stirrer!

[DaFabolous2.0]

Quote, originally posted by Cadenza_7o »

It would be cool to have his opinion on the industry's current standard of "low" or "zero" maintenance on transmissions. Hey, are you going to tear down the tranny yourself? Good luck with that A!

i asked my teacher today about the "low-zero" maintenance thingy about cars today, and he said that the reason car manufactures say that is because they can get people to sell their cars faster, also he mentioned that if you follow your "preventive maintenance" schedules (example: oil changes, timing belt changes, etc) your car will last to its fullest, since car compaines lie about low maintenance or lifetime parts, the cars will start to have minor problems, then become major and wont last you that long, thats why people bad mouth about their car not working well is because compaines lie to us comsumers

i also asked him about the dipstick for the 01M, if he's for sure that they do have a kit, hes gonna find out sometime this week...i hope the parts manager didnt mixed up the 096 for the 01M, then i be really scared to get parts from him again

[Cadenza_7o]

Quote, originally posted by DaFabolous2.0 »

i asked my teacher today about the "low-zero" maintenance thingy about cars today, and he said that the reason car manufactures say that is because they can get people to sell their cars faster...

Get a load of this: some Mercedes models NO LONGER have dipsticks for engine oil... http://theoildrop.server101.co...04272

Quote »

i also asked him about the dipstick for the 01M, if he's for sure that they do have a kit, hes gonna find out sometime this week...

Any word on this yet??

[DaFabolous2.0]

Cadenza_7o:

i called the dealer myself today (the same dealer that told my teacher that they had a dipstick for the 01M) and asked them if they had the kit for the 01M, they said yea, so i asked him for the part number and the first 3 digits he told me were "096" and i stopped him and asked him if it was for the 096, and then he goes, oops, i read it wrong im sorry, we dont have a kit for it

vw dealers , dont know what they are looking at