DIY - Replacing timing chains, tensioners and guides on a 12v VR6

[FOURVWS]

Thanks Gary for the great post on timing chain installing. I've got a question on this. I am replacing the upper guide railks on my 97 GTI VR6. From the Bently Manual on this car it shows the pointer on the intermediate shaft inner sprocket pointing up when the crank sprocket
pointer (ground tooth) is lined up with the rear crank bearing joint. Your picture shows it pointed down. Is this a difference between the MK3 and MK4 engines? Also On my MK3, I can't get all the TDC marks to line up. I.E. If I line up the front crank pulley with the timing mark, the intermediate sprocket pointer and the crank sprocket ground tooth will be off slightly, about 1/8" from where they need to be. Do I need tp correct this?

[masonr]

is this the same for the mk3 vr6 models? I am misfiring in cylinder 3 but the motor is now makes some bad rattling noises. Thanks

[vr6pilot]

My timing was off badly. Car ran like poo. Turns out the chain skipped a tooth or toothes on the cam sprockets. I used the bentley and (moreso) this writeup for specifics on setting the timing and knowing what I could and could not get to.

Most valuable thing in here is: turn the engine over twice to see if all is lined up before you freak out about too much slack in the chain along the front side.

Awesome post and thankx!!!!!

[superhack]

Hey Gary,

I decided it was time for me to change my timing chains a while back when my cam position sensor was showing up with errors, but while I was waiting for the parts to come in the mail the car died.

So I took hauled my car up to my friends shop and started to change the timing chain and when I got in there I had a few more problems than I really expected... As in parts completely missing.

The upper guide was almost completely gone, all but the part that attaches at the top.

The lower guide was completely destroyed and the lower tensioner was broken apart so much that the piston was on the chain.

I found most of the parts, but I guess that some of it probably ended up getting ground up into the oil.

Then while I had the valve cover off I noticed that one of the lobes on the longer cam was kind of flattened out and the lifter had some holes in it...

So after I found that, it was time to rebuild the engine... Once I finally got the head off I realized that three of the intake valves were bent, 1, 3, and 5.

It was a lot of work and unfortunately I don't have the organization or patience that you have to do a diy on how to rebuild the engine, but I must say thanks for all of the different write-ups you have done. They have all helped me to find where things go and how to get everything off and back on again.

This timing chain replacement is very important to do when you hear that noise, or else it will cost you a couple thousand dollars in the long run. Just thought it a good idea to let you know the effects of putting it off for a while.

Thanks a lot to you and Mike(FaelinGL) for your awesome write-ups.

-Brad


Modified by superhack at 3:34 PM 8-25-2008

[GermanRob]

bumpy for awesome write up... saved the day for me!

[mightymidget]

Quote, originally posted by superhack »

So I took hauled my car up to my friends shop and started to change the timing chain and when I got in there I had a few more problems than I really expected... As in parts completely missing.

That has got to be the worst condition guides i've ever seen. Do you think most of this happend when it had the final major failure? It's hard to believe that this ran with a lower tensioner and upper guide that has failed in such a way... If it did, what did it sound like??

[silentdub]

Quote, originally posted by mightymidget »

That has got to be the worst condition guides i've ever seen. Do you think most of this happend when it had the final major failure? It's hard to believe that this ran with a lower tensioner and upper guide that has failed in such a way... If it did, what did it sound like??

I am wondering what mine looks like. I just turned 190K, all OEM.

I know I am on borrowed time at this point.

[SlammedGolfIII]

Quote, originally posted by superhack »

Hey Gary, So after I found that, it was time to rebuild the engine... Once I finally got the head off I realized that three of the intake valves were bent, 1, 3, and 5. Modified by superhack at 3:34 PM 8-25-2008

Holy gangster lean!!!!

[Mk1 fa'days]

very informative

[broken record]

definitely watching this!

[VgRt6]

The pictures of the trashed TC parts on that VR are amazing!

[xanthus12v]

thanks for the write up.
very helpful.

[bergenvr6]

Quote, originally posted by mightymidget »

That has got to be the worst condition guides i've ever seen. Do you think most of this happend when it had the final major failure? It's hard to believe that this ran with a lower tensioner and upper guide that has failed in such a way... If it did, what did it sound like??

seriously, what did it sound like?

i think i have to do my chains as well haven't opened it up to see if it's the upper or lower, but i'm at 126k ...

definitely don't want to bend any valves

[rigger]

Yet another satisfied customer.

I just replaced the Upper Timing Chain guide and tensioner bolt.
The guide was broken and the extra slack (probably) caused the upper chain to skip a tooth.

The mis-timed cams threw a VAG-COM code:
17748 - Camshaft Position Sensor (G40) / Engine Speed Sensor (G28): Incor. Correlation
P1340 -- 35-00 - -

I didn't pull the trans or anything, just the upper chain cover. I had to pull the front cam gear to get the guide in, but other than that, it was as the DIY explains.

It is worth noting that even VW dealerships don't know their parts sometimes.

MK4 single chain guide part number for the AFP engine is as the DIY says:
* 071 109 513 - upper timing chain guide rail AFP engine.

But the VW dealership sold me a 021 part, which is for MK3 dual chain AAA engine.
* 021 109 513 - upper timing chain guide rail AAA engine

Caused me a delay in finishing....

Some eye candy:




Modified by rigger at 3:26 PM 12-30-2008

[VRsuper6]

uhhh, theres pieces missing brosef... drop your pan and get them out asap

[rigger]

Won't they just sit in there or will they gum up the oil pump??

[VRsuper6]

what about clogging your oil pump??? thats what im thinking...

[meeow_mixxx]

Can somebody tell me how to remove the upper tensioner rail (closest to firewall) without removing the lower chain cover? I cant figure out how to slide it off the guide pin without it hitting the lower cover......

[VRsuper6]

you cant, it slides onto a dowel, you have to take the lower cover off to remove it...

24. With the upper chain removed, the upper tensioner rail should fall down through the hole in the exposed headgasket, as indicated by the red arrow in the picture below. The tensioner rail pivots on a pin, which is indicated by the yellow arrow in the picture below.

25. To remove the upper tensioner rail, simply slide it off of the pivot pin, as indicated by the yellow arrows in the picture below. You do not need to remove the pivot pin.

Modified by VRsuper6 at 2:32 PM 12-30-2008

[meeow_mixxx]

[QUOTE=VRsuper6]you cant, it slides onto a dowel, you have to take the lower cover off to remove it...

Which means that the transmission has to be dropped, correct? i'm leaning toward yet another corrado part out right about now

[VgRt6]

Quote, originally posted by VRsuper6 »

what about clogging your oil pump??? thats what im thinking...

There's a screen to keep that from happening.

[Ryan Sickles]

Quote, originally posted by rigger »

Won't they just sit in there or will they gum up the oil pump??

Try draining your oil and screen it to see what turns up. Depending how far the engine was run, majority of those pieces may or may not show up.

[mk4vr6 $ pit]

amazing. nuff said

[rigger]

That's what I thought. I'll drop the oil pan in the spring/summer when it's not -15degC (5degF) here in Toronto just for kicks... Until then, the car seems to be running as smoothly as it should.

[taroy1]

Quote, originally posted by meeow_mixxx »

Can somebody tell me how to remove the upper tensioner rail ... without removing the lower chain cover?

I am up the same creek in a chicken wire canoe. I am not too excited about the idea of attempting to drop the transmission in my modest little garage and limited experience. But, it appears that I have no other option. I just need some encouragment and some suggestions on how to do it without a car lift or a transmission jack.

I have 120K on the old style VR6 in my '94 Jetta GLX. While taking on the task to replacing my valve seals, I made a sad discovery. As is described on page 1 of this DIY, I found that my old style upper tensioner rail is worn through the phenolic that was riveted to the metal backing plate. Most of the phenolic is gone on the trailing edge as are the two rivets. Who knows how long it has been that way. Do I have to worry about what happened to the bits of phenolic or the rivets? Here's what it looks like.

The upper guide rail also shows signs of wear but is not cracked.

That one I can replace no problem. I can't see the condition of the lower tensioner or guide rail.

So, who has some good suggestions on how to creatively pull the transmission without a car lift or a transmission jack?

-T

[VgRt6]

Check out the transmission removal DIY by FaelinGL. It does a great job of explaining how to get it out without a lift or transmission jack.

[KoppyVr6]

im scared for this step..

[rigger]

If anyone is interested, I believe that DSM makes the parts for the timing chain tensoners. The plastic is called "Stanyl"

There's an interesting PDF available at:
http://www.dsm.com/le/en_US/st...s.htm
http://www.dsm.com/le/static/s...s.pdf

(there is a picture of a W10 engine on the 5th page using the parts from DSM)




Modified by rigger at 10:07 PM 1-12-2009

[CorradoMagic]

remove the pan to clean out any debris. The plastic can break down & clog the pumpp screen. The larger pieces can cause oil starvation & damage over a long period of time

[need_a_VR6]

Quote, originally posted by VgRt6 »

Check out the transmission removal DIY by FaelinGL. It does a great job of explaining how to get it out without a lift or transmission jack.

Just know that it's way easier in a Mk4 then a Mk3 it's nice not to have that motor mount cup on the subframe in the way. I was very excited when a trans almost fell out onto my head today. Oh and $#()*@# that power steering line.

[VgRt6]

Did you remove the axle flanges from the diff? I've only done it with them in and it was a PITA. And yes, that power steering line SUCKS!

[need_a_VR6]

Nope I leave them in unless the trans gets rebuilt. I hate smelling/covering myself in gear oil. It is MUCH easier with them (at least the pass side) out though! One other nice Mk4 feature is the cv to trans flange bolts are easier to get to and remove. I can probably do an axle in 10mins.

[wav3form]

It may have been said already but is it wise to change just the upper guide rail and nothing else? That I can do on my own. My '01 only has 74k miles and I haven't heard any noise but I get paranoid about these parts wearing and letting go. Is it worth the time to do that or should I just have the entire job done to get it over with?

[VRnasty08]

thanks for the write up im doing this asap.well once i get income tax money.along with accessory belt.70C thermostat and other things

[taroy1]

Quote, originally posted by taroy1 »

I am up the same creek in a chicken wire canoe. ... So, who has some good suggestions on how to creatively pull the transmission without a car lift or a transmission jack?

Success! New timing chain, guides, and tensioners are in along with a clutch kit while the transmission was out. Getting the tranny out was interesting for this first-timer. I ended up using an engine support bar from Harbor Freight that straddled the engine compartment. It held the engine up to take weight off the mounts. The trick with the transmission was to use strong ratcheting tiedown straps slung over the engine support bar to gently lower and raise it. Took some creative maneuvering but now I have a new merit badge.

Not a week after finally getting the car back on the road and running great, my heater core gave up the ghost yesterday. It looked like a Holywood smoke machine from the vents. Looks like my next big project has been identified.