Pics of timing chain parts removed after 147k+ miles ...

[VgRt6]

I thought I'd post some pics of the timing chain parts I removed in the Timing Chain DIY that I posted.

Aside from the upper guide rail that was snapped in a bunch of pieces and was causing a loud rattling noise between 1000 and 1200 RPMs, the rest of the parts show extremely little wear considering they had been in use for almost 150k miles.

It looks like the newer style upper timing chain parts actually do wear significantly better than the older style parts. Now if only VW could manufacturer an upper guide rail that didn't fail so frequently ...

Here are the pics. Enjoy.

Gary

Edit: Before someone asks, oil changes were done every 10k miles using dino oil up to 100k and synthetic (Mobil 1) from then on.

Modified by VgRt6 at 9:58 PM 5-16-2004

[Evolution Marine]

VgRt6 - Thank you for the pictures. We all appreciate your effort in doing this. - Bob

[MigAce312]

You've gone to great lengths to document the sound, installation, and the condition of parts after 150K miles....that sir is bad@ss!!!! No more guesing games with chains. Just gotta sit down, read this, and listen to the sound clip

BTW...all these posts should definitely be placed up in the FAQ

[Risky GTI]

You are the man...

Now I know what makes all the noise in VRs.

[SleepyTT]

Another helpfull timing chain post on the Tex. Keep them coming

[Hindenburg]

You're a true help to me, thanks so much for your efforts!

[sand2snow]

How easy/difficult would it be just to replace the upper rail guide? Could I do it without separating the engine from tranny?

[VgRt6]

Quote, originally posted by sand2snow »

How easy/difficult would it be just to replace the upper rail guide? Could I do it without separating the engine from tranny?

It's significantly easier and less work than replacing all of the timing chain parts. It's still a fairly involved job though. BTW, you don't need to remove the tranny to replace the upper guide rail.

Check out this DIY for how to replace the rail once you get access to the valve cover and upper timing chain cover - http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1264409.

[sand2snow]

Thanks, you have some really helpful post. I should have looked at that post earlier. I have a early 99 VR6 that just turned 60k and I have timing chain noise. When cold it runs up to 2K, when warm it's not noticable. If I use 0w-40 it's better than previous 5w-30. I am going to assume my upper guide rail has snapped. You can see the engineering flaw b/c when that chain comes over the cam sprockets, it puts a lot of pressure on that guide which is too long and suspect to breaking.

[VgRt6]

I think the biggest flaw in the upper guide is the fact that the middle bolt is not located below the rail like the upper bolt and bottom guide pin are. Because the middle bolt attaches the side of the guide and does not support it from below, a good amount of torque is applied to the rail in the middle. I believe this is what causes it to break so frequently. Interstingly, the upper guide rail on the 24v VR6 is much beefier and is secured at ALL points from below! Too bad there is no fix in the works for the 12v guide.

I'm planning on replacing the upper guide every 50k miles as part of regular maintenance. Since I've done the job before, it shouldn't take too long to do. I also shouldn't have to worry about timing chain noise if I replace the part preemptively.

Gary

[rocket vr6]

I got the work done at 150K, now (7000 miles later) The noise is back. Could it just be the upper guide? AGAIN.

[VgRt6]

Quote, originally posted by rocket vr6 »

I got the work done at 150K, now (7000 miles later) The noise is back. Could it just be the upper guide? AGAIN.

Is that what was broken last time?

Honestly, IMO the upper guide is a failure waiting to happen. It's not a case of if, but when.

Gary

[sand2snow]

Where do you think you get the noise from. When the upper guide fails, do the chains rub on the guide pin or something else?

[VgRt6]

Quote, originally posted by sand2snow »

Where do you think you get the noise from. When the upper guide fails, do the chains rub on the guide pin or something else?

It depends on how badly the guide has failed. In my case, the guide was still intact enough that the chain was still riding on all plastic, as shown below.

The rattling noise in my car was due to the piece that broke off (yellow arrow in picture below). It was wedged in between the lower chain and the block near the intermediate sprocket.

Gary


Modified by VgRt6 at 10:07 PM 5-16-2004

[Sh0cker]

great job...
i even saved your post on my hdd in case something happens with server/host/'tex...lol

anyway...maybe you would find something alike in my case: everytime i pass 2000rpms engine make a strange sound. It doesnt effect the drive but im curious what it could be, its like a rattling, noticable but not loud.

[VgRt6]

Thanks.

Timing chain rattle seems to be most pronounced around 1000-1200 RPMs. I'm not sure if you'd hear it at 2000 RPMs. Maybe it's something else, like a loose heat shield or something.

Gary

[zero666cool]

great helpful info,

[f1forkvr6]

Gary, I finally replaced my chains/guides/rails/tensioners at 259k miles (it was finally time for a clutch ... 195k on this latest clutch ... PO replaced the clutch at 65k). My parts showed similar wear to yours (1997 B4 VR6 engine AAA 217 472 ... newer style single upper chain parts). My slight noise wasn't caused by any broken rail - just worn out upper and lower tensioners. Engine is now quieter than when I purchased it (at 91k miles), but was in no real danger of catastrophic failure. Just another data-point in the timing chain saga.

Have a great new year!

[VgRt6]

Damn. I was hoping you were never going to replace yours. You were our last hope!

Thanks for the info.

Gary

[JettaBoi_VR6]

I'm diggin this post up from the archive...My 2001 has the same noise as the sound clip in the DIY, I'm assuming it's just a broken upper guide? I have about 99K now. If the upper guide is getting replaced, is it likely that there is going to be enough room to remove the broken piece, or it is likely that the trans will need to be removed to get that out? I don't feel like spending the money to have this whole job done, as it seems that most poeple that do it themselves, feel like it didnt really need to be done judging by the wear on the parts. I'm only planning on keepin the car 'til about 150k, when i'll trade it up for a mk5 or a A4 2.0t. It would just be nice to get rid of the rattle, for my own comfort, and for when i trade it in/sell it.

One more question...has anyone tried anything like lucas to quiet the chain down (for when i trade it in)

TIA

[Blk95VR6]

Due to the tight clearances inside the chain area, you'll more than likely be able to get the pieces out, as it would take a complete pulverization of the guide piece(s) in order to not be able to get it out. I've never seen a chain break, and think that no amount of oil additive (Lucas, STP, etcetera) would quiet the noise down. I have been wrong, and maybe someone will chime in that has had luck in doing this...

Mike

[Angus McGee]

my 2000GLX VR6 does the same thing intermittently. I put some octane additive and some super unleaded in. That seemed to help. Thank goodness it doesn't sound like the sound clip in that other thread. My mechanic neighbor thought it might be noisy lifters..

I have an appointment at the dealer next week if it doesn't clear up by then.

Vgrt6, thanks for all your hard work putting this thread and the other one together. Very helpful.

I'm pretty new to Volkswagens. I traded my 86 GMC pickup in on a 2000 Jetta GLX VR6 a few months ago, and working on the truck was a heck of a lot easier.

Thanks again,

AMcG

[rabfan]

Thanks for the great thread!


Modified by rabfan at 3:44 PM 12-18-2006

[crapomaticvr6]

I know this post had been sort of dormant the last year but im about to get my chains done I have that horriable noise and ive had multiple shops say yep its your guides but I only have 78k on my car is that normal? I already have a new kit coming but just curious if thats a pretty common milage for these to start to fail on vrs

[708VR6]

mine had 71,493 miles when I did mine

[WOLFSBURG23]

hey my chains are making that same noise i actually sent you a clip of my car making that noise, i was wondering what are the chances that it would just be the upper guide rail? if so, that would be a easier fix than actually taking the motor and trans out and doing the chains, clutch, etc....

[vr6pilot]

My upper guide rail was broken into 3 pieces @ 108,000. might have been sooner but that's when I discovered it. Seems like a common issue.

[rmetanes1]

Hi,

Im new here

Im wondering if I dont mind the noise, if I can just live with it and no harm will be done to the car, or I DO have to replace the timimg parts.

[VRsuper6]

well, eventually the chain may wear through causing it to break, and when you break a timing chain or just loose tension and skip timing, you bend valves, then you have to pay out the ass for timing chains AND a new head

[kermani]

You DO have to replace them. Unless you want to skip timing and bend valves. Then you have a **** load of work to do.