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    Thread: C2Motorsports: C2 Fuel Kit vs. other fuel management options

    1. 03-04-2004 04:25 AM #1
      had some questions regarding the c2 kit vs other options such as the
      SDS
      TEC3
      SMT6
      unless you have input on the above 3, lets just say they are nearing or surpassing the $1000 mark, and as virtual if not complete standalones, require
      some heavy tuning and install - with or without a dyno, but of course with a wideband.
      ------------------------------------------------
      now for the c2 kit at ~$450(?)
      from http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1120345
      Jefnes/Collier - Custom chips, which are great according to the setup you have obviously. No need to run an FMU (from what I've heard), but you have to
      run 30lb injectors I've been told, for the basic chip that Jeff makes. 4" maf as well. Also, "smooth"...from what people have said here on the boards.
      so you got the drop in(?) eprom chip, larger injectors (optional), and larger 4" MAF (optional).
      1. how does a MAF (Mass Air Flow) sensor detect boost, assuming its the only sensor involved? basically, how does it work?
      afaik a MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure) is the preferred sensor, as it detects negative (vacuum) to positive (boost) pressure, usually using a linear scale
      of 0-5volts as output to the ecu.
      2. what is the resolution of the fuel/ignition tables in your chip vs stock (assuming vw uses a table format, and your chip has additional ones)?
      3. a.how does it handle closed loop (assuming o2 sensor readout to maintain stoich/14.7 AF)?
      b. how does it handle open loop (assuming ecu table lookup during WOT/full throttle and warm up)?
      c. mainly, how does it handle the transition between the two in part throttle, and the transition into and out of boost?
      4. a. how is one program able to account for different setups? im not familiar with all the sensors involved, but as far as the above two, it doesnt seem
      capable of providing enough tuning range (limited maps).
      b. i noticed mention of autotune. outside tuners seem to not use this much (even when available) and prefer the manual method. how is yours able to do
      this? does it interpolate neighboring cells?
      5. a. in the event of a ***** of a problem, ie hesitation, hiccups, off throttle bog, bucking into/out of boost, etc. how would one get this tuned out without
      bringing the vehicle to you personally to tune with a wideband? a long distance tune involving a million reburns doesnt seem efficient..
      b. how can autotune work without a wideband?
      c. what if we have a wideband, can we send you the logs, and if so, do you need a specific format and/or other sensor readouts as well?
      6. what if we have an eprom burner, can we tune ourselves?
      7. i know obd1 is in development, how is it going? how much of a transition is it from obd2? i know with other cars obd0 to obd1 is enormous and almost
      an entirely different project, as is obd2, so most ditch obd2 and just convert to obd1.
      8. thank you my good man. i hope i'm not asking you to divulge too many of your secrets. i feel these would help my understanding and trust in your
      system. don't know if you can tell, but im mainly from the honda camp and am somewhat involved in the development of homemade software to help us
      do-it-yourself'ers tune our obd-0 and obd-1 ecu's without having to buy a full fledged standalone system.

      EDIT: oops sorry i just found the standalone thread here http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...age=1 however this post is more towards avoiding the cost of a standalone and putting the time in to tune yourself.



      Modified by XDEep at 8:28 AM 3-4-2004

    2. Member speed51133!'s Avatar
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      03-04-2004 04:36 PM #2
      thats alot of questions to answer and not get a comission!

    3. 03-04-2004 05:02 PM #3
      Simply put, most numbers stay the same, its just the MAF signal that needs to be translated, due to the larger MAF housing.
      The larger housing allows more air to pass through it at a lesser voltage reading. This is due to MAF signal to high being a large problem with FI applications.
      The ECU needs to see these lower voltages for what they really are so those numbers need to be changed to reflect the new amount of air that the voltage represents.
      Same principle with the injectors, the larger injectors need to have their pulse width pulled back for a smooth idle, this change needs to be equivalent to the lesser voltage signal coming from the larger MAF.
      Although it is possible that the lesser voltage coming from the larger MAF may just even out the larger injectors, it is unlikely.
      The OBD system reference load for fuel maps, load =RPM and MAF
      Thats all I am answering...
      Oh and there's no avoiding stand alone for high horse power applications, there's simply putting it off.

    4. 03-04-2004 05:19 PM #4
      your comparing apples and bananas.

    5. Banner Advertiser Jefnes3's Avatar
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      03-04-2004 06:45 PM #5
      1. The sensor measures airflow. By installing it into a larger housing
      increases the range of rhe sensor. The larger inj. and MAF housing
      are NOT optional.
      2. We do not modify the shape/size of the fuel/ingnition tables.
      There is no need to.
      3. Closed/loop open loop: currently, you install the chip and go for
      ~15 minutes of driving to prform adaptation, then un-uplug the
      the front 02 sensor. The part throttle area is mapped to keep
      ~14.7 and then as you increase the load the mixture follows
      the maps and richens up properly. If you leave the o2 plugged in
      at part thottle and drive with boost it will pull the fuel back to
      ~14.7. (thats why I ask you to be unplugged)
      Obd1: We added new o2 sensor code to control when the o2 sensor is
      gets ignored. So unplugging will NOT be needed for obd1 cars.
      Obd2: We are in-process of code dissasembly and will add the o2 sensor control. (remember this is what I own)
      Emissions: plug the sensor back in. clear the codes. goto emissions.
      pass with no issues. (except if a visual of the turbo will fail you)
      4. the key is the fact that the MAF measures air FLOW, manifold
      pressure is of no direct concern. If you run a 3" exhaust, and your
      set-up flows better, the MAf 'reads' the increase in flow and you
      get the fuel you need. There are limitations to this, but unless
      your engine is VASTLY different it all works.
      Auto-tune: really no such thing. There is a long term fuel trim
      that is applied to the WHOLE fuel table and this is set when you
      perform adaptation. Once the part throttle/vac stuff is dialed
      into ~14.7 the rest of the table is correctly shifted.
      5. troubles? I work these out case by case.
      6.if you can tune it yourself what do you need me for?
      7. Obd2 : obd1 are run by 2 entirely different processors,
      and the chip size doubles from obd1 to 2....
      apples and oranges.
      8. Trade secrets: Just pull out your stock chip, and put it into a reader,
      read it into your computer and get going.
      There is no 'secret' to good tuning.
      14.7 a/f for vac., 13.0 for zero boost yadda, yadda
      too much timing makes you ping.
      WAY too much timing makes you go boom.
      Jeffrey Atwood
      UnitedMotorsport.net
      Email UnitedMotorsport


      Just because you copy our work, does not make you capable of what we are.

    6. Banner Advertiser Jefnes3's Avatar
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      03-04-2004 06:51 PM #6
      Quote, originally posted by mattstacks »
      Oh and there's no avoiding stand alone for high horse power applications, there's simply putting it off.


      I got a Motronic M5.9 standalone..... [IMG]http://*****************.com/smile/emthup.gif[/IMG]
      Works with all the stock sensors and passes emissions.
      Matt, is correct for BIG hp you need an individual tune.
      Jeffrey Atwood
      UnitedMotorsport.net
      Email UnitedMotorsport


      Just because you copy our work, does not make you capable of what we are.

    7. 03-04-2004 08:55 PM #7
      Quote, originally posted by mattstacks »
      Simply put, most numbers stay the same, its just the MAF signal that needs to be translated, due to the larger MAF housing.
      The larger housing allows more air to pass through it at a lesser voltage reading. This is due to MAF signal to high being a large problem with FI applications.
      The ECU needs to see these lower voltages for what they really are so those numbers need to be changed to reflect the new amount of air that the voltage represents.
      Same principle with the injectors, the larger injectors need to have their pulse width pulled back for a smooth idle, this change needs to be equivalent to the lesser voltage signal coming from the larger MAF.
      Although it is possible that the lesser voltage coming from the larger MAF may just even out the larger injectors, it is unlikely.
      The OBD system reference load for fuel maps, load =RPM and MAF
      Thats all I am answering...
      Oh and there's no avoiding stand alone for high horse power applications, there's simply putting it off.

      i.e. scaling. for my honda i built a little map hack that scales larger injectors but of course one potentiometer will scale the entire range. two will do half and half, a network will be, well an AFC basically. in addition to the hack i scaled the fuel/ignition maps down for boost, but still this is pretty crude.
      from this experience, it proved to be difficult to tune my own car, so you can imagine how it would be for others. this is why im asking how they are able to offer a 'universal' configuration, albeit for a different platform using a different sensor(s).

    8. 03-04-2004 09:23 PM #8
      thanks jeffrey, that explains a lot. a few followups if you dont mind-
      1. whats the range of the stock MAF anyways? and of the larger one?
      so i take it the signal is somewhat increasingly linear, as is the airflow as boost increases?
      2. no table editing, eh? lucky guys. we have had to resort to rewriting an entirely new rom with expanded/separate maps.
      3. closed/open loop- sounds reasonable. luck guys. i know we have a little RAM and somewhat of a learning, but probably not advanced as you guys. if anything just for idle purposes. ill have to ask my buddies about that..
      5. any examples of problems people have had, and how you tuned it out?
      6. i suck at coding lol. im still working on theory.. and my first c++ exam is next week so i take it you've already disassembled most of it?
      Quote »
      8. Trade secrets: Just pull out your stock chip, and put it into a reader,
      read it into your computer and get going.

      ^understatement of the century folks. haha thanks again, and i know there are lots of lurkers- er, people- anxiously waiting your progress, they just dont know what to ask. [IMG]http://*****************.com/smile/emthup.gif[/IMG]


      Modified by XDEep at 1:25 AM 3-5-2004

    9. Banner Advertiser Jefnes3's Avatar
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      03-04-2004 10:20 PM #9
      1. Stock MAF is good to around 220whp. My MAF Housing should be
      good to ~400whp.
      2. Simple the maps are 'scaleable' in software.
      Always 16 x 16, but the 'limits' can be adjusted.
      Obd1 Hondas are programable, but Bosch Motronic is better....
      (I tune Hondata an AEM EMS as well)
      5. The only problem I 'really' found was when a silicone reducer
      was installed infrom fo the MAF to accomodate a smaller air
      filter. The reducer fubar'd the MAF signal.
      6. I don't write very much code, it all in just 'reading' what
      the ecu is doing. We have obd1 dis-assembled in parts.....
      (help from Jacob Harris)
      If you (anyone) has done any embedded sytems work
      this stuff is not too bad.... remember its ~5-10yrs old.
      Jeffrey Atwood
      UnitedMotorsport.net
      Email UnitedMotorsport


      Just because you copy our work, does not make you capable of what we are.

    10. 03-05-2004 02:16 PM #10
      you tune hondata? nice! i went to one of their dealer seminars but alas i cant afford it in addition to the tuning costs. instead im gonna be using the pgmfi.org rom and editing using turboedit. now i just need to find someone who will let me dynotune with 'homemade' software heh.
      anywho, i dont think you mentioned anything about ignition?

    11. Banner Advertiser Jefnes3's Avatar
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      03-05-2004 02:22 PM #11
      I've been tuning Hondata since V2.5,
      WAY before the s200/s100 stuff came out.
      You don't need a dyno until you get to big power...
      say ~300whp+. And you still need to do part throttle, and REAL
      LIFE is the best way to tune.
      You never asked about ignition stuff. (I believe)

      Jeffrey Atwood
      UnitedMotorsport.net
      Email UnitedMotorsport


      Just because you copy our work, does not make you capable of what we are.

    12. 03-05-2004 02:38 PM #12
      Quote, originally posted by Jefnes3 »
      I've been tuning Hondata since V2.5,
      WAY before the s200/s100 stuff came out.
      You don't need a dyno until you get to big power...
      say ~300whp+. And you still need to do part throttle, and REAL
      LIFE is the best way to tune.
      You never asked about ignition stuff. (I believe)

      Jeffrey Atwood

      ya i just want to get the AF squared away, and actually dynotune for power when im finalized, which will probably be never.
      have you been able to get that mysterious hesitation out of peoples setups? i know theyve addressed the problem but havent come to a definitive conclusion, other than 'the right tuner'.
      gee i wish i could find a writeup on tuning techniques when the time comes. *hint hint
      so back to the c2 kit, whats going on with the timing, is it being pulled back? per pound of boost or just fixed across the board? msd boost timing master (ugh)? i know vw's are distributorless so you cant just physically pull it back..

    13. Banner Advertiser Jefnes3's Avatar
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      03-05-2004 10:02 PM #13
      mysterious hesitation? Not sure waht you are refering to.
      Timing: I do bring back the timing some, I can dial in whatever timing
      is needed. I log knock sensor response and adjust timing accordingly.
      I have the same amount of control on VW's as Hondata in an Obd1 Honda.
      Jeffrey Atwood


      Modified by Jefnes3 at 2:55 PM 3-6-2004
      UnitedMotorsport.net
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      Just because you copy our work, does not make you capable of what we are.

    14. n00b
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      07-10-2016 11:27 PM #14
      [Q
      Robert G here. Hey I have built 5 turbo whips with c2 software and you can not beat it for low cost big horse power and driveability. Just plug and play is a beautiful thing.
      the timing is stock almost it is advanced huge like 30 deg btdc with there racing chip choice , but advances a lot at top of gear high rpms when the fuel runs lean automatically to avoid lean engine burn. If this happens and your engine flattens out you need bigger injectors ( more Fuel) at wot. I mean full throttle.
      The mass air flow housing whould be 3 inches but is too hard to resize for bigger injectors . I have come up with a new solution I love, It is called a maf enhancer. Search it and build one or buy one . It will wire up to your maf wires and lower the voltage manually to tune the ecu signal to a idle base for any injectors . Sweet . I am running 650 cc injectors on my build. This will work on any 0bd ecu boosted or not.
      Right now I am tuning my c2 chip to fly up to 7200 rpm with out leveling out bad like it was. I will let you know if the extra fuel will do this, but I am 90% sure it will have much more horse power. By the way I am having trouble keeping the car on the road when test hitting it , it is fun and fast. I have 350 horse power with42 lb injectors, now I will have much more.
      This maf enhancer should really help the vw motor heads out there. Gotta go. Questions just ask me I will help you ,there is very little I and my son do not know about a vw turbo build.


      shop Life
      UOTE=XDEep;12408139]
      Quote, originally posted by Jefnes3 »
      I've been tuning Hondata since V2.5,
      WAY before the s200/s100 stuff came out.
      You don't need a dyno until you get to big power...
      say ~300whp+. And you still need to do part throttle, and REAL
      LIFE is the best way to tune.
      You never asked about ignition stuff. (I believe)


      Robert G here. Hey I have built 5 turbo whips with c2 software and you can not beat it for low cost big horse power and driveability. Just plug and play is a beautiful thing.
      the timing is stock almost it is advanced huge like 30 deg btdc with there racing chip choice , but advances a lot at top of gear high rpms when the fuel runs lean automatically to avoid lean engine burn. If this happens and your engine flattens out you need bigger injectors ( more Fuel) at wot. I mean full throttle.
      The mass air flow housing whould be 3 inches but is too hard to resize for bigger injectors . I have come up with a new solution I love, It is called a maf enhancer. Search it and build one or buy one . It will wire up to your maf wires and lower the voltage manually to tune the ecu signal to a idle base for any injectors . Sweet . I am running 650 cc injectors on my build. This will work on any 0bd ecu boosted or not.
      Right now I am tuning my c2 chip to fly up to 7200 rpm with out leveling out bad like it was. I will let you know if the extra fuel will do this, but I am 90% sure it will have much more horse power. By the way I am having trouble keeping the car on the road when test hitting it , it is fun and fast. I have 350 horse power with42 lb injectors, now I will have much more.
      This maf enhancer should really help the vw motor heads out there. Gotta go. Questions just ask me I will help you ,there is very little I and my son do not know about a vw turbo build.


      shop Life

      Jeffrey Atwood

      ya i just want to get the AF squared away, and actually dynotune for power when im finalized, which will probably be never.
      have you been able to get that mysterious hesitation out of peoples setups? i know theyve addressed the problem but havent come to a definitive conclusion, other than 'the right tuner'.
      gee i wish i could find a writeup on tuning techniques when the time comes. *hint hint
      so back to the c2 kit, whats going on with the timing, is it being pulled back? per pound of boost or just fixed across the board? msd boost timing master (ugh)? i know vw's are distributorless so you cant just physically pull it back..[/QUOTE]

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