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    Thread: The Megasquirt from CIS-E and Motronic Official Post!

    1. Member GTIMan82's Avatar
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      05-06-2004 06:01 PM #1
      Overview Megasquirt is an aftermarket engine management system that can control fuel only (MS) or spark too (MSnS). It is a build it yourself or buy it pre-built system that can utilize most existing factory wiring and sensors, but a VW wiring harness is usually reason alone to rewire. Looking at the big picture it sounds hard, but focusing on each piece of the system one at a time makes it a fairly easy project. This post as well as others can help you with any problems.

      Please Everyone chime in with your 2 cents from your own personal experience! This main page is composed of posts and links from several contributors in the VW community.

      Use information and megasquirt settings, ve tables, and ignition tables found in this and any post at your own risk!
      The Links:
      MegaSquirt FAQ- FIRST Thing to read
      Second thing to read, formal introduction, purchasing instructions, pre-assembled kit options, it will get you started

      Yahoo Megasquirt Group- Here is a forum dedicated to a anything megasquirt
      Yahoo VWMegasquirt Group- A anything VW megasquirt forum/
      Official Megasquirt Post in the Forced Induction Forum- Lots of information and a good post to read through check it out!

      Link to Megasquirt Ignition post that should eventually have all ignition info for Hall Sensor Ignition Systems!

      Timbo2132's VW technotes site very nice resource!! and great wiring diagram

      Martyn_16V sweet post and writeup Definit Read


      Captain16vGTI's MK I Install Post Good pictures and proof MS can be done cheap

      OttawaG60's clean and simple how to make an all fuel MS 2.2 system become MSnS

      SCOTT@USRT - has good deals on fuel injectors and other stuff. View his home page link

      Many of your standalone parts needs can be met here! Good deals on Wideband O2, Air Intake Temp, and other sensors/wiring goodies

      Successful Installations
      Anyone can do this project, for real. ’s for all who have got there cars up and running with it If you want your name up here, ill put it up here. Thats how it works.

      NJRrado
      Engine: 9a 83.5mm JE Pistons, Scat Rods, Stock Head, Turbo
      MS ver: MSnS -e
      Ignition: Stock distributor wired using MidnightGLI's diagram

      GTIMan82 (CrackerX)
      87 GTI
      Engine: Stock 9a, Stock 9a Head, AEM UEGO Wideband setup
      MS ver: MS 2.2
      Ignition: Stock CIS-E knock box ignition

      parasight
      Engine: 2.0 16v
      MS ver: MS -extra
      Ignition: Points with Vacuum advance (On way to MSnS)

      s2je77
      92 16V Golf
      Engine: 9a, N/A
      MS ver: MS 3.0

      martyn_16v
      Engine: 9A with KR head and 'euro' KR cams, 50mm 'euro' manifold, 'euro' everything. 4- brach exhaust header with Techedge 2A0 wideband. Soon to have GSXR1000 itb's
      MS: v2.2 board with MS'n'S-Extra 024s9
      Ignition : Stock distributor using MidnightGLI's diagram. Soon to be EDIS
      Other cool bits: Shift Lights

      Captain16vGTI
      84 Rabbit GTI
      Engine: Stock 1.8 16v (PL)
      MS ver: V3.0 With 024s13 code
      Ignition: Stock CIS-E Knock Setup.

      Cdn20valve
      1993 MKI Cabriolet
      Engine: 2.0 16v (9a)
      MSnSE ver: V2.2 029q2 code
      Ign: Stock distributor wired with LED17 spark out as per OttawaG60
      Inputs: LC1 Wideband, GM IAT, GM CLT, Passat 16v auto TB
      Outputs: Knock Sensor (KnocksenseMS), PWM Idle control (DIGI II ISV)

      mjleamy
      1991 Jetta GLI 16V
      Engine: 2.0L 16v, i.e. the 9A
      MS: v2.2 board with MSnS-Extra 029q2 from Patatron
      Ign: MSnS-E using 16v distributor and a digi Bosch ignition module
      injectors: Digi2 18.7 lb/hr

      chadr
      1990 Jetta GLI 16V
      Engine: 2.0L, TT Street Cams, TT exhaust
      MS: V3 board with MSnS-Extra high res code ver 0.08f
      Ign: MSnS-E using 16v distributor and MS V3 board ignition module
      injectors: 42 lb/hr
      Link on msruns.com

      Programs or Tools
      There are several computer programs needed to interact with the megasquirt unit, and they can be found under the files section in the Yahoo groups forum link above. They are fairly straight forward in use, except the tuning program. The manual is a must read.

      List of hardware needed from stock CIS-E to Megasquirt:
      -TPS : I recommend a TPS from an automatic passat. The TPS is used for fuel enrichement reactions to throttle inputs. MSII and MSnS -extra code allow for no TPS to be used. Instead the rate of change of the MAP sensor signal is used to calculate fuel enrichements.
      -Fuel Rail
      -Electronic fuel injectors and harness. See injector choices below.
      -DIGI-II fuel injector holders. They will thread right into the 16V manifold
      -Adjustable fuel pressure regulator
      -High pressure fuel injection hose and fuel injection clamps. (Autozone, Advance)
      -Big Bore Intake with cone air filter. You dont have to have the big bore intake, but its easier to find a cone filter to fit that instead of the stock intake pipe.
      -Intake air temp sensor. You can plumb this in the manifold behind the throttle body with a tap set, or silicone it into an intake pipe. Intake pipe is recommended.
      -Wideband O2 sensor w/ gauge. (recommended) The wideband will seriously help you adjust things to damn near perfect and make it that much more of an enjoyable experience. A perfectly tuned 16V on megasquirt is just awesome!

      Sensor choices-Coolant, Air Temp, and TPS:
      When following the megamanual in regards to putting the main control unit together and picking the control bias resistor for the sensor inputs... I chose to use the standard 2.2K resistors and use the EasyTherm program to modify the megasquirt control unit for proper sensor interpretation. Basically EasyTherm tells megasquirt how to interpret your choice of sensor.

      The stock 16V coolant temp sensor, and a stock Digi II?? (I think) air temp sensor work great. The Bentley manual has graphical read outs for both sensors. The resistance is on one axis, and temperature on another. Using the EasyTherm program, one can easily grab points from the graph and stick them into the program.

      The stock automatic 16V passat throttle body, and throttle cable holder (they are different from stock!) bolt right up to a factory 16V manifold and work fine. The automatic already has a TPS on it, so just grab the three pin harness and follow the instructions on how to figure out which wire is which located Here-click sensors and wiring on the leftl. Newer versions of MS such as MSII and MSnS -extra do not require a TPS. They use the MAPdot to figure accel and decel enrichments.

      There is only one vacuum port left on the intake manifold after the automatic throttle body install, but you can run up to an auto parts store and pick up a variety pack of vacuum T fittings or make your own vacuum distribution block. Also, there is no idle screw so you have to adjust the resting position of the throttle. When you do this, you have to recalibrate the TPS sensor using MegaTune. (takes like 2 seconds)


      Ignition

      Motronic users need to hook up MSnS -extra

      If you are running CIS-E, you can use your stock ignition! Simply leave the factory ignition/computers connected and when you are ready to start the car just turn her over

      Tach Wire:
      If you hook up MSnS then you don’t have to worry about the tach signal, it comes directly from the distributor.

      The (-) lead on the coil typically has a lot of noise in the signal. A much easier and cleaner approach is to grab the green wire coming from the 3 pin distributor harness. Simply attach the tach wire to it. Somebody scared me about that wire being high voltage or potentially being high voltage. Because I didnt want to worry about it I added 3kohm resistor inline with the megasquirt tach lead to this source. Is it necessary? Probably not, but I know the max current that can flow through the 3kohm resistor is very low. Some peoples setups have it, some dont. Mine works fine with it in there.

      Link to Megasquirt Ignition post that should eventually have all ignition info for Hall Sensor Ignition Systems!

      Fuel Lines
      For the fuel lines I just cut the stock factory lines AFTER the hardware fitting lines so that later on I can install some steel braided lines. Autozones and other places do sell Goodyear brand high pressure fuel line. Thats what I used to connect everything and it is working fine.

      The middle fuel line that went to the charcoal canister is some kinda emissions thing. I dont honestly know if you can simply plug it... For now I ran mine up and then back down into a strut tower bar bolt hole. Only thing is, when I had a full tank of fuel I jacked the car up, and when I let it back down... gas came out of it! Not cool!!

      Anyone got any ideas on what "should" be done with this thing?

      Fuel Injectors
      For fuel injectors I am have successfully ran stock 19#/hr DIGI-II fuel injectors. I have adjusted my fuel pressure regulator to 50 PSI, and they work fine at around a max 65% duty cycle.

      I also used DIGI-II fuel injector holders, they threaded right into the 16V manifold. The settings for this in MegaTune are Simultaneous, 2 injections per cycle, Required fuel:16.8.

      I now have 48# injectors and am going to try to use both injector banks to do it. When UltraMegasquirt comes out I plan on doing sequential injection.

      Constants Updated 05/2004
      DIGI II Injector constants pictured below

      If you have an idle screw or idle issues with my VE map try Ottawa G60’s. Also, you might want to check his constants. He has a megatune msq file available for download from a link in this post:
      http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1805445


      Enrichments Updated 08/03/2004
      The Exhaust gas correctoin settings are set for tuning.
      The EGO step % should be 1 and EGO limit 10 or so for normal driving.
      The acceleration enrichments are now just about perfect
      Warmup settings are pretty good But there is still some hesitation on heavy throttle inputs from idle. Gentle inputs do pretty well.

      VE Table Updated 08/03/2004
      A Wide Band O2 unit will SIGNIFICANTLY decrease tuning time and is awesome for achieving perfect or desired air/fuel ratios. There is an already calibrated sensor and control unit that can be purchased for about $346. Its the AEM UEGO sensor part number 30-2301. It can be found for this price here http://www.roadraceengineering.com/ems.htm just scroll down a little. There may be better prices out there.


      My car idles around 30KPA and most acceleration runs jump immediately to 60+ on the map sensor.
      The car also went down to around ~12 KPA when I let off of the throttle at high RPMS and about 20 KPA on decel on lower RPMS

      Also, the RPM points may work better if you have one where you reach your Peak HP value. For instance, My car currently reaches peak at about 5800 RPMS on the Dyno, but if I had a point of reference there at 5800 I could possibly tune it for a little more HP.

      At WOT you are tunning between two MAP points (90KPA and 100KPA)for each RPM value. The car fluctuates around 95 RPM which makes tuning the WOT points a little more difficult. Keep in mind that it is sometimes necessary to adjust BOTH points to get the desired change.

      You can also see where the Peak HP (5800) RPMS is reached. After the peak power is reached the VE has to decrease to maintain the desired air fuel ratio. This value for max power is close to where most stock 2.0’s max out. I am going to say that the factory ignition and a bad knock sensor are keeping the max power at such a low RPM.

      *new stuff
      The VE Table is really great up to about 4200 RPMS. Its got some holes after that but its still pretty good You can see the developing torque curve much more clearly now. It is more linear compared to before where it was more of a rounded curve. The colors can be confusing as to the actual progression of the percentages, but they are a pretty close representation.

      In the future I am going to move the RPM points around to try and tweak my max HP and I will have that tuned better soon. Anyways, this is a great starting point, and the picture is updated below. Just right click on the first link to save the VE table to your computer.
      http://members.cox.net/cracker...t.vex

      You might also want to check out OttawaG60’s VE table/settings. Again, they are available for download here
      http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1805445


      How to tune your VE maps
      MSTweakComes with some good documentation in PDF Format that you should read before beginning to tune the VE map. There are different settings you need to use for different RPM Ranges. When tuning those ranges you can also setup MSTweak to exclude other RPM ranges from the data by setting the min and max RPM in MSTweak to the specific range you are tuning.

      Here is a brief overview, It tells you all this in a lot more detail in the PDF File that comes with MSTweak3000.

      Set up your ignition events per second for the different RPM ranges you are tuning. If you want to tune the 1000-4000 range you need to have your stuff in the enrichments set up for that RPM range. Basically, set the Ignition Events per second to about 28-32 and your step% to about 1-2% (2 for more of a rough map). Also, the limit being set to 75% is probably fine, but for tuning puposes you might as well put it at 100%.

      For higher RPM ranges 4000-7000 Set your ignition events per step to 64 and your step % to about 3.

      Once the map is set correctly or very very close, you probably want to put the limit down to 5-10% and your step to 1%.

      Now, thats just megatune enrichment settings.. Be sure to setup mstweak correctly.
      VE Range settings: the min RPM equal to megatunes EGO Active Above RPM value... ( Mine is 800 now) and the Max RPM set to 10000 is fine, max Map to 100 is fine for NA.
      VE Range Calculation: Should be set to Average, with Outlier Elimination checked. Sigma should be 1.8 or so, and your EGO Crossover Voltage should be .5 for a narrow band, or the target voltage you want from your wideband. (For My calibrated wideband sensor its 3.5340 for about 13.2:1.)
      Data Filtering and Fitting: Use 2 step with the second filter% about 1/2 the first one. Also, you should set the first filter from 60-85% Moving higher as your VE table gets closer to what it should be.

      Again, most of that tuning information is in the PDF file that comes with mstweak.

      I really hope this helps everyone. Megasquirt requires you to read a crapload of information but you don’t have to know it all at once. If you focus on where you are at in the overall project, then it is much more easy stay sane. Order it, assemble it, test it, install it, check over installation, and then try to configure it.


      Just some pics of my initial install... I am constantly changing things on this car, but here is how it looked when I first got it done




      As you can see, not the best install! I have moved the relay board to the old CIS-E computer location next to the Ign Module and have rewired/cleaned up my whole engine bay.


      Modified by GTIMan82 at 2:49 PM 12-27-2006


      Modified by GTIMan82 at 7:02 AM 12-28-2006


      Modified by GTIMan82 at 7:02 AM 12-28-2006


      Modified by GTIMan82 at 11:49 AM 2-4-2007


      Modified by GTIMan82 at 3:38 PM 11-21-2007


    2. 05-06-2004 06:58 PM #2
      Hopefully my kits come soon. How long did it take you to put everything together. I got the relay board and stimulator too. I am gonna get it running with the stock ignition and then put on the EDIS stuff. Does anyone need an EDIS-4 setup? I got two spares.

    3. 05-06-2004 07:06 PM #3

      Are you still using the stock cis-e fuel pump? Or did you switch to a lower pressure unit?

    4. 05-06-2004 07:15 PM #4
      You can use the stock pump, since you will be using a fuel pressure regulator on the rail.

    5. 05-06-2004 07:47 PM #5
      Didn't get you IM.

      That's not that bad, I will be happy if it takes me twice that time.

      P.S. I put up a megasquirt for VWs forum on my site just now, if anyone wants to use it. I hate the format of the stupid yahoo groups. The address is http://hex3.com/megasquirt


    6. Senior Member PowerDubs's Avatar
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      05-06-2004 08:21 PM #6
      You forgot the most important site-

      http://www.megasquirt.info


    7. 05-07-2004 08:43 AM #7
      Excellent timing, I'm installing my CIS-E MS tomorrow!
      I'll post any useful info I can add.

    8. 05-07-2004 08:45 AM #8
      I have dynoed my 16v, so I plunked the values into the MS tool.
      http://www.megasquirt.info/manual/vetable.htm
      And generated a table:
      Copy and paste that into myFile.vex
      I'll let you know how well it works and if it can be used as a baseline table to get you started.

      EVEME 1.0 //VEX format version
      UserRev: 1.02
      UserComment: Automatically generated
      Date: 05-05-2004
      Time: 14:05
      Page 0
      VE Table RPM Range [ 8] # expressed in RPM/100
      [ 0] = 8
      [ 1] = 13
      [ 2] = 23
      [ 3] = 33
      [ 4] = 43
      [ 5] = 52
      [ 6] = 62
      [ 7] = 72
      VE Table Load Range (MAP) [ 8]
      [ 0] = 20
      [ 1] = 30
      [ 2] = 45
      [ 3] = 55
      [ 4] = 65
      [ 5] = 80
      [ 6] = 90
      [ 7] = 100
      VE Table [ 8][ 8]
      [ 0] [ 1] [ 2] [ 3] [ 4] [ 5] [ 6] [ 7]
      [ 0] = 24 24 42 55 61 59 56 53
      [ 1] = 24 24 45 59 65 63 60 57
      [ 2] = 24 25 50 65 72 70 67 64
      [ 3] = 24 26 52 69 76 74 70 67
      [ 4] = 24 28 55 73 80 78 74 70
      [ 5] = 24 30 60 79 87 84 80 76
      [ 6] = 24 31 63 83 91 88 84 80
      [ 7] = 24 33 66 87 95 93 88 84


    9. Member GTIMan82's Avatar
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      05-07-2004 09:12 AM #9
      I just threw the link up there, along with some pictures of my settings

      Ottawa I think you just missed them

      As far as the VE table goes, I find that the auto-generated one works well, but you may want to edit your map bins and ignition bins from the standpoint of where the engine operates for the most power, or where it operates most often. I think it might work nicer if the points are slightly more closer together where you expect peak power and for idle(if you care about it idling well). At least thats how I feel after tuning mine to the table I have. But it does work fine now, but the A/F ratio graph was a little bumpy around max power. Anyways good luck man! I hope you notice a huge improvement After getting mine on the road I had a smile plastered to my face!


    10. Member
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      05-07-2004 02:53 PM #10
      Just registered for your board. Now we just need some discussion there.
      Quote, originally posted by plohip »
      Didn't get you IM.

      That's not that bad, I will be happy if it takes me twice that time.

      P.S. I put up a megasquirt for VWs forum on my site just now, if anyone wants to use it. I hate the format of the stupid yahoo groups. The address is http://hex3.com/megasquirt


    11. 05-07-2004 03:06 PM #11
      Quote, originally posted by CrackerX »
      I just threw the link up there, along with some pictures of my settings

      Ottawa I think you just missed them


      Oooops
      Quote »

      As far as the VE table goes, I find that the auto-generated one works well, but you may want to edit your map bins and ignition bins from the standpoint of where the engine operates for the most power, or where it operates most often. I think it might work nicer if the points are slightly more closer together where you expect peak power and for idle(if you care about it idling well). At least thats how I feel after tuning mine to the table I have. But it does work fine now, but the A/F ratio graph was a little bumpy around max power. Anyways good luck man! I hope you notice a huge improvement After getting mine on the road I had a smile plastered to my face!

      I've also tuned an SDS before, so this isn't my first stab at PEM.

      Have you used MSTweak? How did it refine the bins?


    12. Member GTIMan82's Avatar
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      05-07-2004 03:46 PM #12
      It refined the bins fairly well, I could feel definite improvements each time I did it... and an overall "pattern" began to form... but after MsTweak seemed to be happy with where the VE Table was I took it to the dyno and was able to tune another 15HP. I think the MsTweak would work a lot better if I had the wideband O2 sensor installed.

      Either way, its a good place to start.


    13. 05-07-2004 05:52 PM #13
      Quote, originally posted by detvw »
      Just registered for your board. Now we just need some discussion there.

      lol, yep. I am gonna go and post the link to a few dozen sties tomorrow.


    14. 05-08-2004 02:50 PM #14
      why is megasquirt better than sds, other than being laptop tuneable?

    15. 05-08-2004 03:55 PM #15
      Price!

    16. 05-08-2004 04:01 PM #16
      Here is the official MS forum http://www.msefi.com/ And there are actually people using it, not like mine.

    17. 05-08-2004 10:54 PM #17
      Quote, originally posted by adidas_mc »
      why is megasquirt better than sds, other than being laptop tuneable?

      I have had an SDS and I wouldn't say it's better.


    18. 05-10-2004 06:12 PM #18
      Ok, mines installed, I'll be tuning it soon, I'll post anything I find interesting.

    19. Member
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      05-12-2004 11:21 AM #19
      bump

    20. 05-13-2004 09:04 AM #20
      I used CrackerX's .vex file from above, it's pretty much bang on.
      Great MAP for anyone with a stock or near stock 16v (I've got some euro goodies).
      Big thanks to CrackerX for the MAP.

      My cold starts still leave something to be desired, but all in good time as my O2 seems to be on the fritz.


    21. 05-13-2004 09:07 AM #21
      Quote »
      Enrichments
      The Exhaust gas correctoin settings are set for tuning.
      Setting the EGO step % to 75 and ignition events per step to 32 enables the logging option in MegaTune to grab lots of data points for MegaTweak.

      events should be closer to the number of cylinders you have I think, as that is how many injector firings before it takes a reading.


    22. Member GTIMan82's Avatar
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      05-13-2004 09:47 AM #22
      Quote, originally posted by OttawaG60 »
      events should be closer to the number of cylinders you have I think, as that is how many injector firings before it takes a reading.

      Yea I got that from someone else, but I definitly got a LOT of points from putting in 32 You definitly want 8 or so for regular driving.

      I am Glad the VE map worked out for you!


    23. 05-13-2004 11:36 AM #23
      So I just scale the table for my different req_fuel, since I have larger injectors? Right?

    24. 05-13-2004 12:16 PM #24
      VE table, once set, should never change unless you do some thing physical to the engine.
      REQ_FUEL, ya, just change that, I'm using G60 injectors, so mine is different

    25. 05-18-2004 10:00 AM #25
      CrackerX, do you have decel bucking problems?

    26. 05-19-2004 07:41 PM #26
      So what did you guys do with the origional wiring? just zip-tied it out of the way?

    27. 05-20-2004 10:16 AM #27
      Much of the original wiring stays, like the dash coolant sensor etc...
      I tiewrapped things out of the way until I am sure that I can remove them.

    28. 05-22-2004 01:29 PM #28
      After problems with the manufaturer of the CNC'd cases, Glen has shipped my stuff today. He is in AL and I am in GA, I am hoping to have it monday or tuesday. I need to finnish my fuel rail, get some new injector o-rings, and run my wires. Should have everything ready for the install by Monday. Once I get it driving and install my tires I am going to start work on the EDIS-4 stuff.

    29. Member GTIMan82's Avatar
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      05-22-2004 11:58 PM #29
      Quote, originally posted by OttawaG60 »
      CrackerX, do you have decel bucking problems?

      Not really decel, but accel. I have pretty much smoothed out the accel... but it still bucks a little every now and again. I think I need to continue to decrease my accel enrichments...,

      There is a field in the enrichments page for decel fuel % I think if you are bucking you may find the engine flooding or leaning out. Try to mess with the decel enrichment and see what happens... Being able to adjust it on the fly should enable you to get it set better quickly


    30. 05-24-2004 12:01 PM #30
      I set my decel down to 80% helped out.
      I figured since our setups are so close, we'd be encountering the same tuning issues.

    31. Member GTIMan82's Avatar
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      05-24-2004 12:31 PM #31
      To be honest I have not driven it in about 2 weeks so i dont really remember if it does that... I dont think it does maybe... I have had it up in the air to space out the rear stub axles, and I also have to try to install these ITB's i just picked up. They should really ROCK on stock cams and stock head

    32. 05-25-2004 09:21 PM #32
      My kits from Glen's garage got here yesterday. I started soldering everything today. This was my first time soldering on a PCB. I think I did pretty well. At least until I put a capacitor in wrong and fried it, on the mail ms unit. Damn you C15!! I am hoping that a local electronics supply place has a replacement, radio shack didn't of course. Everything else looks fine though. I tested all of the joints and they are all good. I also got to the power supply test step of the ms unit. Everything tested fine on it and then the cap. exploded. Here are some pictures, cause I am board.


      I think these look pretty good for the very first time. I re-did some of the bloby ones.

      Success!


      MegaStim!


    33. Member GTIMan82's Avatar
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      05-26-2004 07:24 AM #33
      Dont look bad Dont forget to put your jumper wire on the relay board for the fast idle relay, and I hope you can find a capacitor somewhere local. Radioshack never had ANYTHING I needed for this project, that place has a skelton circuit components inventory now...

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      05-26-2004 01:10 PM #34
      My stuff from Glen's Garage arrived yesterday, will be starting very soon!

    35. 05-26-2004 04:20 PM #35
      Assembly was soo easy the way that Glen bags and labels everything.

      I finaly found a place that sells that capacitor! Gonna get it tomorrow morning.


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