MkIV Camber plate list

[keycom]

TTT

[laurent]

Had the SPC kit installed for roughly two weeks now and it feels absolutely great. The only complaint I have at this point is noise coming from the passenger side strut that I have not been able to eliminate entirely.

When I had first installed the kit this noise, best described as a groaning you would expect coming from deep within the bowels of an old wooden ship, was noticeable everytime the steering wheel was turned. The SPC assembly wasn't moving freely enough causing the upper spring plate to rotate and the upper control spring of my KW coilovers with it.

The upper strut bearing checked out fine, as in it wasn't crushed and rotated freely. What I did notice however was that the part of the SPC kit that sits on top of the upper strut bearing showed noticeable wear. I wish I had taken pictures but unfortunately I didn't have a camera handy.

The rubber coating of this part must have gotten caught somehow causing part of the rubber coating to seperate from the plate and gumming up the opening for the strut.

After removing the rubber that had seperated and torquing everything back to spec the noise disappeared.

This took care of the noise when turning the steering wheel but unfortunately I am still getting that very same noise now with the car moving at speeds < 5mph, whether the wheel is turned or not.

[bobqzzi]

Quote, originally posted by mxman »

i find it hilarious people are scared of camber shims for the rear THATS HOW THEY SET THE CAMBER FROM THE FACTORY @$_%$@(%@

Not from the VW factory!!! I don't see the need for these shims on a street car-if the rear alignment is off, then the axle is bent. The rear has plenty of negative camber for street use, and if you want more for race use, then the plastic ones are not suitable. Given the heat generated during hard repeated braking, the shims soften and allow the bolts to loosen and fret.

Steel shims are available.

[rex_racer]

are the spc shims plastic or metal, i believe the bildon ones are metal right???

[Kanoa9321]

Incase anyone is intrested I am selling my TT Control Arms

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1640034

[keycom]

To: "laurent"

Quote, originally posted by reflexgti »

The initial SPC kits had issues with the rubber delaminating from the steel which held up the production. . . .

Sounds like you got one of the early production ones, or they still haven't solved the problem.

[gelatin]

Quote, originally posted by keycom »

To: "laurent" Sounds like you got one of the early production ones, or they still haven't solved the problem.

...sometimes mine sound like someone is pounding on the wall of a submarine... i checked and its not that i have the rubber coming off like laurent. do you guys think the car was set up(from factory) so that with the stock caster, the axis of rotation for turning the front wheels was straight through the strut?(or at least very close) ...once we change the camber with these plates the caster changes too and maybe the axis of rotation and the strut no longer coincide. sure, it didn't move much but with the front end weighing so much, is it possible that this causes the bearing to bind and not rotate as freely as it should? maybe a spherical bearing is the way it should be done...

edit:: to get rid of my noise i changed to 30ftlb of torque on the "first" nut(cuz i dont know what else to call it). i still use 44 on the pinch nut on top... noise free since friday when i messed with it...


Modified by gelatin at 7:29 AM 10-25-2004

[phatvw]

SPC Install Notes:

This guide can be used to install any top strut mount including OEM mounts, camber plates, lowering caps, etc. Check out the: strut tool guide as well.

References:
# Noah's guide
# http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...27185 (I basically used this guide and added the step of disconnecting the front swaybar from Noah's guide. This makes it easier to get in there for folks with oem length springs.

Install Prep:
# Loosen wheel lugs one turn
# Safely jack up car
# Remove wheel lugs and wheel
# Raise control arm slightly with a bottle jack
# Remove lower swaybar end-link bolt (16mm) (swaybar may be under tension so be careful - it may pop out and hit your hand when you remove the bolt.)
# Raise bottle jack all the way
# Use a strut spring compressor to safely hold the spring in place
# Remove outer nut and top strut plate
# Lower the bottle jack all the way
# Remove the old strut mount. Pay attention to the Bentley manual. The strut mount can come out without having to remove the inner strut nut first. (Mine was mushed together with the bearing so it was really hard to get it off. But it was even harder trying to get the nut off with the strut mount still in place.)
# loosen inner strut nut and remove donut-shaped bearing cartridge.

Install:
# If you are installing OEM mounts, follow the Bentley shop manual for the proper stacking order of the OEM components. Install is the reverse of removal. Here is a pic to get you started: http://peterpyce.com/Shine/Sap...1.jpg Note the 10mm spacer piece which may or may not come on your car depending on model year/options.
# If you are installing SPC camber plates continue on:
# Install the SPC plates and a new OEM bearing in place of the old strut mounts as described in the instruction sheet. Make sure the square holes are lined up! Note, you do not need to remove the strut to do this! Just get a friend to help if you have short arms.
# Raise the bottle jack all the way again and guide strut into the strut tower opening
# Install a rachet extension into the square holes - make sure it engages all the way
# Torque the inner nut to 44 ft-lbs. Some folks have reported better results when torquing slightly less than this
# Remove the ratchet extension
# Remove the strut spring compressor
# Install SPC top plate and make sure the peg is lined up with the square hole.
# Install and slowly torque outer nut to 30 ft-lbs ensuring that peg is still inside the square hole. Rubber surround for the top plate should cover the strut tower evenly. If it is slanting off to the side, loosen the nut and try again. If slanting continues, inspect the plate bottom and make sure it is flat. If it is bent, you may need to flatten it or get a replacement from SPC. Applying pressure to to opposite side of the plate will help keep it flat as you are torquing the nut.

Finishing up:
# Lower the bottle jack until the swaybar is aligned with the control arm
# Replace swaybar bolt and torque to 44 ft-lbs
# Lower bottle jack all the way
# Replace wheel & torque lug bolts to 89 ft-lbs using alternating star pattern
# Lower car off jack stands

Adjusting the alignment
# setup alignment rig
# record current alignment settings
# loosen top nut and remove top plate
# take load off of suspension with lift, but keep all 4 tires in contact with the ground
# loosen inner nut 1-2 turns
# use 3/8" ratchet extension in the square pegs to rotate plates to get desired caster/camber on each side
# torque inner nut to 44 ft-lbs
# remove ratchet extension
# lower lift and re-seat the springs by pushing on the 4 corners of the car a few times
# Install top plate and ensure peg engages the square hole.
# Install and slowly torque outer nut to 30 ft-lbs ensuring that peg is still inside the square hole. Rubber surround for the top plate should cover the strut tower evenly. If it is slanting off to the side, loosen the nut and try again. If slanting continues, inspect the plate bottom and make sure it is flat. If it is bent, you may need to flatten it or get a replacement from SPC. Applying pressure to to opposite side of the plate will help keep it flat as you are torquing the nut.
# Re-check alignment settings

Special Tools
# 16mm socket
# 13/16" spark plug socket with 15/16" crowfoot wrench or equivalent
# 7/8" oxygen sensor socket with 1" crowfoot wrench or equivalent
# 7mm long hex key
# strut spring compressor

Regular tools
# ratchet
# torque wrench
# sockets, adapters, ratchet extensions, etc
# jack stands
# bottle jack
# floor jack
# latex gloves

First impressions
# Turn-in is definitely improved - even without an alignment
# Ride is a bit noisier
# Ride height appears unaffected

Alignment specs
Before:
LF: -0.3° camber +7.5° caster, -0.08° toe
RF: +0.2 camber, +8.1° caster, -0.08° toe

After:
LF -1.2° camber, +7.6° caster, -0.08° toe
RF -0.9° camber, +7.8° caster, -0.08° toe

With me in the car, camber was more equal at -1.1° & -1.0° camber.

[gelatin]

Quote, originally posted by phatvw »

Replace swaybar bolt and torque to 44 ft-lbs?

...i believe you are correct sir......kind of surprised you dont have more camber to start with. your car sits a little lower than stock right?

[enginerd]

loosen your ball joint bolts. Pull out on the bottom of the tire, and retighten. You will pick up more negative camber 0.1 - 0.2 deg on both sides. Even torqued to spec it stays there too, no worries about it sliding back. even with r-compounds and an azzwhoopin

[phatvw]

Quote, originally posted by gelatin »

...i believe you are correct sir......kind of surprised you dont have more camber to start with. your car sits a little lower than stock right?

Yeah I crunched up a rim and buggered up the suspension on a curb a couple years ago. Shop said they fixed it and the frame was straight, but the alignment has never been 100% since then...

I will try to get a little more camber by re-torquing the balljoint and/or subframe bolts before getting the alignment.

[redwe-in-wi]

I have had the spc plates on for 2 months. Up until the past two weeks I have had no problems. But in the last two weeks, the bushings have made a squeek and groan over every bump and load change (accelerate, brake, corner). I retorqued the top to nuts to spec (44lbs & 34lbs IIRC). They still squeek and groan. Anyone else having issues?

I will research the problem further when I have time and decent weather.

[phatvw]

Quote, originally posted by phatvw »

I will try to get a little more camber by re-torquing the balljoint and/or subframe bolts before getting the alignment.

Loosening and re-torquing the balljoint bolts didn't seem to help. There really wasn't any play in the bolt holes. Getting an alignment tomorrow and will report back on that.

[laurent]

Quote, originally posted by redwe-in-wi »

I have had the spc plates on for 2 months. Up until the past two weeks I have had no problems. But in the last two weeks, the bushings have made a squeek and groan over every bump and load change (accelerate, brake, corner). I retorqued the top to nuts to spec (44lbs & 34lbs IIRC). They still squeek and groan. Anyone else having issues? I will research the problem further when I have time and decent weather.

Same thing here, only on the passenger side though. I've removed the upper plate and found some signs of wear on the peg that goes into the two square holes. The plate seems to have bent and as a result that peg no longer fits far enough into the hole causing the upper plate to rotate when under load.

I took a few shots but they all came out kind of blurry, this is the best one I've got. I hope it illustrate what I'm talking about. Note the wear marks on the peg from sliding out of the hole.

Modified by laurent at 8:25 PM 10-31-2004

[phatvw]

Weird, my SPC top plate doesn't look like that. The peg and the bottom of the plate don't extend nearly as far. In fact, the peg doesn't even come close to engaging the square hole in the mount...

[laurent]

Quote, originally posted by phatvw »

Weird, my SPC top plate doesn't look like that. The peg and the bottom of the plate don't extend nearly as far. In fact, the peg doesn't even come close to engaging the square hole in the mount...

Isn't engaging with the square hole in the mount the sole purpose of it, what other use could is possible have?

[redwe-in-wi]

That looks like my top plate; kind of marred up. I am 100% sure the two parts are aligned when assembling. I put locktite on the nuts and I recheck the torque weekly. I know everything is staying tight.

Hopefully most of the sound is coming from my worn out lca bushings; but there is definelty sound emitted from above. (strut towers)

[AutoXMan]

Quote, originally posted by redwe-in-wi »

But in the last two weeks, the bushings have made a squeek and groan over every bump and load change (accelerate, brake, corner). I retorqued the top to nuts to spec (44lbs & 34lbs IIRC). They still squeek and groan. Anyone else having issues?

YES! I am having this same issue. God, the sound is horrible. At first I thought it was my swaybar because I had taken the bushings out a few months ago and re-installed them (had polys that didn't fit). So I took them out and regreased them - but no difference. It happens mostly when braking or acclerating as the drivers' wheel goes up and down. I could actually grab the top of the strut mount inside the engine bay and make it squeak a little - with all my weight back and forth on it.

So you think the peg is wearing? If so, what do you do to prevent it? Should there be a thin rubber washer between the two plates? I have GOT to make this stop. I think the passengers' side is ok because a shop had to torque it down with an impact wrench - so maybe it's overtight and isn't moving. On the drivers' side I have about stripped the Koni shaft trying to get it tight enough. Might have to buy another. Please, we need to work on this!

[gelatin]

both pegs on mine have broken off. i used to get the groaning from the pass-side, but i retorqued everything and now the noise is on the driver-side. go figure. i'm thinking the problem is the axis of rotation, when you turn the wheel, doesn't go straight through the bearing like it did before the plates. this makes the bearing bind and makes the plates want to move... so we get the groaning and wear on the little pins...or in my case, missing pins...spherical bearing is better...just my two cents but i'm totally hating these stupid plates...

[gelatin]

Quote, originally posted by AutoXMan »

So you think the peg is wearing? If so, what do you do to prevent it? Should there be a thin rubber washer between the two plates? I have GOT to make this stop. I think the passengers' side is ok because a shop had to torque it down with an impact wrench - so maybe it's overtight and isn't moving. On the drivers' side I have about stripped the Koni shaft trying to get it tight enough. Might have to buy another. Please, we need to work on this!

...i doubt that what you hear is the pin wearing. i think what you hear is the plate moving. in my case the sound is the plate trying to move because the bearing isn't able to do its job. i bolded the part of your comment that worries me most. i dont want to ruin my struts with these plates. i'm seeking replacement ASAP.

[fritzner]

i just put mine on and they are squeeking like a bed in a $5 wh*rehouse.. i am not getting any grinding or clunking, but alot of rubber squeeking..

i took the caps off yesterday and found my pegs are marred up too.. i cant really tell if it is aligned with the holes.. i retorqued everything with no improvement.. i will try to post some pics later..

Quote, originally posted by redwe-in-wi »

That looks like my top plate; kind of marred up.

[laurent]

The sound is absolutely maddening. I've greased the sucker up when I had the top off and the sound was for the most eliminated but now it's back with a vengeance.

The only cure I have found for now is to turn the stereo up a few notches. Without music it's so bad that I am certain you could use the noise to extract vital information out of the supposed terrorists in Cuantanamo Bay.

[fritzner]

here are some pics of mine.. not sure why it is crooked, pics on page 7 dont look like mine.. i took mine apart and re-installed with no benefit.. i think maybe the peg is not in the hole, but i cant really tell.. i posted earlier that i too had some wear on my peg (as pictured above), to me it looked like the peg caught the side of the hole did not go in -- to help the peg, i ground a small chamfer on the end of the peg in hope it would slip in if it was close..

funny how all these problems show up a few days after i install mine

PS: this is on a bug (if the pics look a little weird) -- whats even better is i have to remove my wipers and cowl to even see the strut tops..


Modified by fritzner at 11:52 AM 11-1-2004

[keycom]

Yeh, let's get this figured out. I've bought a set, but haven't installed them yet.

Sounds like too many of you are having the same problem. Not sure I want to install mine now!

[RichB]

My passenger side front is squeeking as well. No groaning or any other noises, just a light squeek. It is only audible with the windows all rolled up and the car rolling along a light throttle at lower speeds (less than 40mph). Just cracking a window open, having the stereo on (not loudly), or driving faster the 40mph or so (road noise etc) will easily drown it out. I haven't removed the top cap yet, but have jacked the car up and pushed/pulled/yanked on things to no effect (everything appears tight and I have done some agressive cornering/driving and nothing has shifted).

The only thing I have noticed is that the passenger side top cap does appear to be sitting/fitting over the strut tower slightly different than the one on the other side. The driver side cap appears to be more evenly centered on the strut tower than the passenger side one.

I hope to take the passenger side top cap off tomorrow. - I will report back with what I find.

[phatvw]

Quote, originally posted by laurent »

Isn't engaging with the square hole in the mount the sole purpose of it, what other use could is possible have?

Yes I expect it is. I think the pegs on my plates are too short. I beleive someone else on here noticed the same thing, so perhaps it depends what batch of plates you get. I am taking my car on the track in a couple weeks so I'll see how they hold up.

BTW, just had my car aligned today:

Before:
LF: -0.3° camber +7.5° caster, -0.08° toe
RF: +0.2 camber, +8.1° caster, -0.08° toe

After:
LF -1.2° camber, +7.6° caster, -0.08° toe
RF -0.9° camber, +7.8° caster, -0.08° toe

With me in the car, camber was -1.1 & -1.0

Here is a pic of the plate installed. Looks like it is getting smushed towards the engine bay. Is it supposed to look like this?

[gelatin]

your pic makes me think the peg is not getting into the hole. mine never sat quite that bad... what i've been doing is decreasing the torque on the first nut(until it stops having problems) and using 45 on the pinch nut (the top nut...) ...i think i must only have about 27 lbs on the one that has no problems now... that one hasn't moved or squeaked in several days...

[enginerd]

My install is still going strong. R compounds, stiff koni coils, control arm bushings, 13" brakes, and 300 hp.

It looks like a few of you didnt/don't have the pin in the hole correctly. Tightening it up like this is bad, real bad. Something is going to give. Either you bent the plate, break the stud, strip the strut, or bend the strut. Be very careful when you tighten. Do not use an impact wrench. Go 1/4 turn at a time on the top nut, and rotate the top back and forth making sure its in the hole correctly. Im not sayign this is the cause of all the problems, but a likely culprit on a couple cases I saw on here. Remember when tightened, there shoudl not be any load on this post at all. the clamping force of the nut prevents the movement, not the post.

For those with groaning sounds, have you replaced your strut bearings? I didnt replace mine, but they felt good with only 30K miles on them. Some of you may want to consider replacing the bearings.

On another note, I do not have any different caster dialed in on my car, I just set it at maximum camber position on both sides, and I evened out the camber by shifting the sub frame left/right.

Also, I do not have stock strut top pieces. (the stamped sheet metal stuff) I have koni coils that have an aluminum replacement. perhaps the stock sheetmetal parts are rubbing the underside of the SPC assembly? Have you checked the clearance on these parts?

Good luck fellas

[laurent]

Well, assuming the pin/peg wasn't in the hole properly, from what I understand the upper cap shouldn't move regardless. It seems that for whatever reason something in my assembly is binding when it shouldn't.

As for the bearing, I checked it when I had everything torn apart and even though I had a replacement one I never installed it because the old one checked out fine.

Now that I am starting to think about it, when I took the passenger side strut apart I forgot to put the bump stop back in and never bothered with correcting it since I figured it shouldn't really make a difference. Could this be causing my binding problems?

Ps.: I have KW Variant 2 coilovers...


Modified by laurent at 11:34 AM 11-2-2004

[enginerd]

I would not suspect the bump stop is a problem. If you dont have the peg in the hole perfectly, you will get what is shown in the above picture. An angle on the upper piece. The cars sheetmetal perch gets clamped by the two spc pieces like a sandwhich. if the post isn't in the hole perfect, then you get an angle, and the sandwhich only clamps on maybe a third of the way around. Drive like this, or torque down real hard and something bends, and your plates are screwed. Even if you correct it later, the damage is done, and something bent. Now it can't clamp properly, and it can move around.

Ill get a better pic tonight, but it should sit perfectly flush.

Modified by enginerd at 12:29 PM 11-2-2004

[phatvw]

Quote, originally posted by enginerd »

I would not suspect the bump stop is a problem. If you dont have the peg in the hole perfectly, you will get what is shown in the above picture. An angle on the upper piece. The cars sheetmetal perch gets clamped by the two spc pieces like a sandwhich. if the post isn't in the hole perfect, then you get an angle, and the sandwhich only clamps on maybe a third of the way around. Drive like this, or torque down real hard and something bends, and your plates are screwed. Even if you correct it later, the damage is done, and something bent. Now it can't clamp properly, and it can move around. Ill get a better pic tonight, but it should sit perfectly flush.

Ok so when I installed the top plates, I triple checked that the pegs were aligned with the holes before torquing down. Its just that when I start to tighten the top nut, the plate starts slanting. I think a) my top plate is malformed and b) the peg is too short to engage the hole correctly.

I think I'll be calling SPC to see if they can source me new top plates. Besides wearing the rubber down a bit I don't think this will kill the bottom part of the plates. I wonder if this can be corrected by adding a washer?


Modified by phatvw at 11:59 AM 11-2-2004

[phatvw]

I just sent an email to SPC outlining the issues folks are having with these plates. I mentioned that I could supply pictures of the problems. Please IM me with links to your pictures if you would like me to send them to SPC. I will only send pictures for which I have permission.

Thanks,
Dan



Modified by phatvw at 12:27 PM 11-2-2004

[RichB]

Guys... thanks much for the additional info!

I just spent some time futzing with my passenger side SPC camber kit to see what was up (i.e why it was squeeking).

Here is the passenger side and driver side SPC top plates on the car before I started. You can see the passenger side one is not right, but driver side one looks good and flush.

(I've purposely posted the images side by side so they are easy to compare.)

Removing the passenger side top plate clearly showed the problem:

Having a feeling that the passenger side top plate was most definetely not right, I took a hammer and one of my 3/8" extensions (used the round open end as a punch kind of) and wacked on the bottom side of the top plate until things returned to what I thought was correct.

I then checked the lower nut on the passenger side SPC. It was a little bit loose. I adjusted the camber plate a bit (it was a little off from full negative camber) and tightened the lower nut back up. I torqued it to a little higher than spec (48ftlbs as opposed to 44ftlbs) and added a drop of lock-tite to keep things tight.

I then took my "modified" top plate and re-installed it and torqued to spec (30ftlbs). The result is that the passeneger side top plate looks like the driver side one (it is sitting nice and flush):

Weather is crappy here today, so I only took the car down the block and back and in and out of the driveway a few times (the bump/dip at the bottom of the driveway usually causes squeeking). No noise so far, so I think I may have it licked, but a more extended drive will be needed to see if it holds.



Modified by RichB at 3:52 PM 11-2-2004

[RichB]

Quote, originally posted by phatvw »

I just sent an email to SPC outlining the issues folks are having with these plates. I mentioned that I could supply pictures of the problems. Please IM me with links to your pictures if you would like me to send them to SPC. I will only send pictures for which I have permission.

Dan... feel free to use my pics from my posting above if it is of any help.

FWIW... I think as well that the post/pin on the top plate needs to be a bit longer. Even with things tightened to spec, I doubt the pin is fully seated in the camber mating camber plate square opening. (ideally, I would like to see square peg that will more snugly fit into the square opening on the top plate or maybe instead of the peg, just leave a round hole there on the top plate and put a bolt through the hole with a locknut and nut on the bottom... should be enough space for it to fit and would be stronger I would think).

[fritzner]

great post.. i have the same problem as you can see in the pics in one of the posts above.. i will try that tonight..

one thing i havent figured out yet, is how you are lining up the pegs.. i eye ball it the best i can, but the peg is not long enough until the nut compresses the rubber, but at that point you cant rotate the top cap anymore (not as though i know which way it is off anyway)..

i though putting a small chamber (1/16") on the end of the peg would help it slide in if it were close, but it apparently hasnt helped..