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    VWVortex


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    Thread: Toluene and gas mixture, and aviation fuel questions?

    1. 10-14-2004 09:37 PM #1
      Someone suggested that I add 4%toluene to gas ratio to help prevent pinging. Is this the correct percentage. So what it comes out to is for 6.5gals of gas add 1qrt of toluene. Is this the same startex toluene that you get at a paint store? So what does it basically up the octane level? I always use 93, I just thought I try this till I get new plugs. Has anyone ever used aviation gas instead of race gas? The only difference I think is that aviation fuel is leaded and race gas is not. Do you think it will hurt. BTW I have no cat.

    2. 10-14-2004 10:47 PM #2
      Quote, originally posted by FNMOVIN »
      Someone suggested that I add 4%toluene to gas ratio to help prevent pinging. Is this the correct percentage. So what it comes out to is for 6.5gals of gas add 1qrt of toluene. Is this the same startex toluene that you get at a paint store? So what does it basically up the octane level? I always use 93, I just thought I try this till I get new plugs. Has anyone ever used aviation gas instead of race gas? The only difference I think is that aviation fuel is leaded and race gas is not. Do you think it will hurt. BTW I have no cat.

      I have heard Tolulune is the same as octane. To what number I am not sure. I guess you can add a 5o% to 93 but who knows how much 93 rises.

      Good luck I would like to know.


    3. 10-15-2004 12:11 AM #3
      Quote, originally posted by FNMOVIN »
      Someone suggested that I add 4%toluene to gas ratio to help prevent pinging. Is this the correct percentage. So what it comes out to is for 6.5gals of gas add 1qrt of toluene. Is this the same startex toluene that you get at a paint store? So what does it basically up the octane level? I always use 93, I just thought I try this till I get new plugs. Has anyone ever used aviation gas instead of race gas? The only difference I think is that aviation fuel is leaded and race gas is not. Do you think it will hurt. BTW I have no cat.

      Ive used both in my tank. toluene is a product of gas and is used in octane boosters. about 8% of this will go from 91 to about 100-103oct. so i just went down to a paint store and got the toluene in a small can and poured the hole thing in. worked great. i also worked at an airport were we had AV-GAS. its 100oct leaded but it dose not have additives such as mtbe or whatever. i loved that stuff. messed up my O2 sensors but the car ran great. it also has a gravity lighter then that of regular gas if you have no cat, or O2s then you can run this all day.


    4. 10-15-2004 12:15 AM #4
      Sean Winkler
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    5. Member Slayer's Avatar
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      10-15-2004 08:37 AM #5
      Toluene is cool stuff.. needs alot to make 100 octane though. also remember that its used in production of meth so if you buy large quantities of it like this one fellow on audiworld, the FBI may come raid your house like they did with his. i think he bought like 15 gallons? of it or something stupid.

      another thing, if you buy a drum of this stuff you need a proper drum grounding system and VERY good ventilation because it has a flashpoint of ~45-50? &deg

      Check out my Garage build thread 2008.5 GTI 2.0 TSI 6MT / APR K04 V3.1, APR IC, CTS 3" turbo back, Carbonio full intake, GFB DV+, BSH TB pipe, SB Stg2 Endurance clutch, BSH mounts, DG Shortshifter, FFM bracket bushings, Forge big knob, Koni coils, Coolingmist CMGS Meth injection, USRT spacer (DO3 & Snow 100 nozzles), 19" Miro stp3's, Centric rotors, Stoptech pads and TyrolSport bushings

    6. 10-15-2004 10:21 AM #6
      Toluene is discussed in Steve Matchett's latest book, "The Chariot Makers", for those of you that keep up with F1. It seems that prior to the introduction of fuel regulations the F1 teams were blending their own fuels and toluene was extensively used. The performance gains for an F1 car were in the area of 6-8 tenths of a second. In F1 terms, this is huge and all as a result of fuel!!!

      Matchett goes on to say that the stench of fuel in the pits was absolutely horrible. I believe he mentioned that the teams had approached NASA about the fuel because they had used it in rocket boosters.

      You could always try alcohol . . .anybody ever been to a Top Fuel event when they are firing up the engines in the pits? Man, that stuff is potent!!!!

      G.


    7. 10-15-2004 11:08 AM #7
      I'm going to try this today on lunch. What happens if you make too stong a mixture? It eats thru the rubber lines?

    8. Member jungle's Avatar
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      10-15-2004 12:04 PM #8
      this stuff is corrosive....which is why you aren't susposed to use more than a few ounces per gallon.

    9. 10-15-2004 12:09 PM #9
      well that chart said 10gallon of 93 mixed with 1 gallon of Toluene still only makes 94.9 Octane. Is this an unsafe mixture?

    10. 10-15-2004 12:46 PM #10
      it's not an unsafe mixture. I like to add about one capful of Marvels mystery oil per gallon of toluene or xylene just to keep the pump and injectors lubed up properly.
      Sean Winkler
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    11. 10-15-2004 01:04 PM #11

    12. 10-15-2004 02:25 PM #12
      Xylene actually makes a better boost than the toluene. Zylene(zylol) is 7.77 a gal at the local paint store and Toluene is 5.25 a gal. Wouldn't it be cheaper to put some race gas in with reg gas to boost octane. You could almost add 2 gal of 114 for 10.00 I wonder what that would change the octane level of say 10gal of 93?

    13. 10-15-2004 03:45 PM #13
      I went out, nobody had Toluene but they had Xylene. I didn't buy it cause I wasn't sure if it was good. Gonna pick some up after work.

    14. 10-15-2004 04:25 PM #14
      At Pep Boys, they sell Berryman's Chem Tool - is basically a can of Toulene. Very cheap compared to the well marketed and packaged Chevron Cr$p.

      Works well in my VR6.


    15. 10-15-2004 05:22 PM #15
      I tried it. I put 1 gal of toluene to 4gals of gas. I could tell the difference after about 10mins driving. It makes it run better and harder. It seems to pull a little better too.

      I got mine at the local paint store(Benjamin Moore, or Sherwin williams) have it.


      Modified by FNMOVIN at 10:23 PM 10-15-2004


    16. 10-15-2004 08:52 PM #16
      Ahh, I just used some Berryman's stuff a few weeks ago because I was getting some pinging under acceleration. Poured the stuff in the tank and I could certainly tell the difference. Didn't realize this was toluene.

      G.


    17. 10-16-2004 03:03 AM #17
      Xylene works great, and the best thing is if you add 2 gallons of xylene to 5 gallons of 92 octane you get 7 gallons of 100, and there is no way you can buy 7 gallons of 100 unleaded for under $20. Just add a cap of MMO per gallon and you're set. I use xylene at the track, it works
      Sean Winkler
      Sales & Leasing Consultant | Barrier Audi
      Office: 877-243-2181
      Cell: 425-750-5007

    18. 10-16-2004 10:26 AM #18
      Got me 2 cans of Xylene...damn the warnings on this stuff are pretty scary! Can't wait to try it out on my local test track.

    19. 10-16-2004 11:07 AM #19
      Got 1 gal of toulene from Menards it was $10. Anyone know a place with better prices?

    20. 10-16-2004 01:08 PM #20
      Lowes had it for 8.78 or something, home depot was under 10 bucks. Still beats 6 bucks a gallon for 100 octane!

    21. 10-16-2004 03:26 PM #21
      Isnt toluene what they used in the mid 80's F-1 cars which made them able to run 1700hp at like 50psi on a 1.5L engine? I think i remember reading a section on that in Maximum Boost. It has a very high combustion point so you can run insain amounts of boost and never have a detonation prolbem. If thats the stuff then all i have heard is good things... so a lil addition of that to gas would sound like a good idea to me.

    22. Member 20psirabbit's Avatar
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      10-16-2004 05:03 PM #22
      i need to try this stuff out too
      R.I.P. Good Vortex

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      10-16-2004 06:21 PM #23
      Quote, originally posted by germanrox »
      Xylene works great, and the best thing is if you add 2 gallons of xylene to 5 gallons of 92 octane you get 7 gallons of 100, and there is no way you can buy 7 gallons of 100 unleaded for under $20.

      This isn't true. Xylene has an octane rating of 117 (toluene has an octane rating of 114). Therefore, combining 2 gallons of 117 octane with 5 gallons of 92 octane yields 7 gallons of 98 octane, not 100. Still not a bad boost.

      However, both xylene and toluene are real toxic. For the health of both you and your engine, it would be bettter to run unleaded race gas, which is available in both 100 and 104 octane ratings and is designed to run in internal combustion engines instead of to dissolve paint.

      Kenji

    24. 10-16-2004 07:26 PM #24
      So how do you guys mix this crap? I can only find it in gallon cans, and it's impossible to pour a good stream...it either runs down the side of the can or it comes out faster than the funnel can take.

      I got maybe 16oz in to 6gallons of gas...the flat spot seemed less noticable but it was raining like a mother and I was scared to really get on it.


    25. 10-16-2004 07:39 PM #25
      Oh, and gasoline isn't toxic?

    26. 10-16-2004 08:00 PM #26
      I have tried a gallon of toluene to 5 gals of 91 octane and noticed small difference, but it only jumped to like 94 octane. You have to add a lot to get up in octane, that's where it becomes ineffective cost wise. For a full tank(18gals) I would have to add almost 7 gals of Toluene to get 100 octane.

      Straight from my Avaition Powerplant Maintenance textbook:

      "Three other important aromatics are toluene,xylene, and cumene. Some of the characteristics of toluene, such as low freezing point, good volatility, and rubber solvent properties less powerful than benzol, make it suitable for blending in avaition fuel up to 15 percent by volume. Xylene also has desirable qualities for blending in avaition fuels. However, it can only be used in limited quantities owing to it's relatively high boiling point. Cumene is made from benzol, this limits the amount that can be used for blending purposes. Cumene also has an extremely high boiling point, which tends to cause uneven distribution of the fuel-air charge to the various cylinders of the aircraft engine."

      And as far as avaition fuel goes:

      "Three grade of avgas are now produced for civil use: 80, 100LL(low lead), and 100."
      ".........Grade 100LL is blue in color and contains a maximum of 2.0ml/gal of tetraethyl-lead(TEL). Grade 100 is green and contains a maximum of 4.0ml/gal of TEL"

      According to the book 100LL contains 4 times as much lead as Grade 80 avgas, I imagine that unleaded fuel from the pump contains none.

      Here's what the book says about TEL and the deposits it forms:

      "Continuous use of higher-lead fuels in low-compression engines designed for low-lead fuels can cause erosion or necking of of the exhaust valve stems and spark plud lead fouling"

      Take what you will from all this info


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      10-16-2004 08:23 PM #27
      Quote, originally posted by FatSean »
      Oh, and gasoline isn't toxic?

      I didn't say that. My point is that toluene is much nastier than gasoline, and xylene is even worse. Try not to get any on your skin.
      Kenji

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      10-16-2004 08:25 PM #28
      Quote, originally posted by FatSean »
      So how do you guys mix this crap?

      I use a cheapo siphon to get the toluene into the gas tank, then add gas from the pump as needed.
      Kenji

    29. 10-17-2004 10:33 AM #29
      Damn why didn't I think of that...time to get a siphon and some rubber gloves. thanks

    30. 10-17-2004 02:18 PM #30
      Quote, originally posted by Slayer »
      another thing, if you buy a drum of this stuff you need a proper drum grounding system and VERY good ventilation because it has a flashpoint of ~45-50? °

      We use both toulene and xylene in fairly large quantities at work for priming steel beams, columns and structures. We use it mostly for cleaning / dissolving paint, I never knew it to be useful as an octane additive.

      Anyways, this stuff is not as dangerous as you might think. In fact several times I've inadvertantely been grinding or cutting-- throwing sparks at gallons of this stuff laying by, and it won't light.

      Curiousity got the best of me, and you cannot light it without a wick of some sort. Pour some out and throw a match on it --- nothing. Pour some out on a rag and do the same thing, and it goes ablaze (doesn't "blow up") just lights on fire and burns for a rather long time. Kind of like diesel fuel in this respect.

      If you smell toulene, it smells exactly like the glue they use for model airplanes and such. Xylene smells somewhat less potent, and doesn't evaporate nearly as fast as Toulene.

      A good rule of thumb, is that octane is gasoline's measure of it's resistance to ignite. If tolene and xylene have significantly higher octane properties, chances are it won't light nearly as easy, and it doesn't.

      Methyl Ethyl Ketone, and acetone-type solvents are another story altogether. These are the ones to watch out for...


      Modified by 2razor2 at 7:22 PM 10-17-2004


    31. 10-17-2004 06:27 PM #31
      if you diddnt read them, read the links monoski put up. great stuff i tell ya

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