Adding subwoofer to Nav/Audio system?

[Mr.Veedubya]

W7 not to shabby

[jasonrao]

IROM-
Great to see your install, Ill bet it sounds sweet. Maybe you could be persuaded to help with mine since the custom stereo folks in our area seem a bit taken back by ripping into the egg.

I'm also wondering how a smaller 3-channel amp to the rear stock speakers would sound. I have the stereo II, so Im satisifed with the sound up front. As you know the rear is very weak.

I just got Spocks custom RCA adapter creation in the mail today to run to a new amp for the job. Based on your experience with switching to the Nav radio, and the Vag we did to turn the output on, I'm hoping this will work. Will test it soon.

I plan on running wires and what not myself, but may ask for insights if things get hairy. Worried about the amp. Your sub install is great, want to avoid a box.

Thanks again for the update and pics!

[irom124]

FKI,

I don't have air suspension, but I don't think it matters in this case.
What you probably have is 4-zone air. In that case you'll have condenser for rear air conditioning under that panel.

maczrool,

I don't think that a 4" speaker would easily fit in there without major modifications. Eventhough, anything is possible if you have enough will and/or money That speaker is mounted on the door trim panel and is held in there with just a spring, kind of like an H4 headlight bulb. So, you would have to make some sort of mounting plate, possible out of fiberglass, and the grill would still be too small for a 4" speaker in place of 2" speaker, so you might loose some sound as it would bounce back at the speaker from the door panel. If you can find a 2.5 speaker, that would be easier to mount.

Yes, I used most availabe space for the enclosure. It went all the way upto under the lock where the cargo cover is held. You can probably go a little farther to the front if you're willing to put extra work to it.

Door panels are relatively easy to remove and reinstall. In fact mounting them back on is easier than on any other car I've taken apart. Everything just falls exactly in its place, and lock into place. To remove, just use some sort of rigid plastic prying tool. I used a screwdriver wrapped in tape, and left some scratches under the door panels that I had touch up with paint. Those completely invisible once you put the panel back on. The hard part is to pry off the clips from the side, one by one. Don't just pull on the panel, or it may crack, as they're relly tight in there. There are about four clips on each side of each door. After you take off the panel, make sure to take any clips left in the door and put them back into the door panel. Also, make sure that you unclick each clip as they seem to kindof "open or unckick" by sliding their axis. It's not that easy to unlick them ones the're out of the door and panel without breaking them. Usually, they're supposed to unlick and and release their grip on the door, but some of them come out of the door panel instead, and some come out with panel, but still stay locked, so you'll need to open them.

Jason,

A smaller 3-channel amp would probably be a great improvement, for the rear speakers. I don't think that you need an adaptor to run a sub if you're installing an amp. You can just run 4(or 2) speaker level outputs from your radio to your amp and connect your sub directly to the amplifier. If each speaker is connected separately to the oem amp, then you can also put a crossover next to the new amp to drive different speakers in the doors. You'll also need to find a way to mount the smaller amp, next to cd changer is probably possible(and it would be nice to have the wires going to the speakers available close by, from the old amp), but can be tricky as you would have to fabricate some sort of a mounting bracket. In case you're planning on making a fiberglass sub enclosre or amp rack, here is a good website with directions http://web.njit.edu/~cas1383/proj/main/
I can give you printed directions on how to remove side sills to run the wires or any panels that you're looking to remove. I can definately help you if you get in a jam.


Modified by irom124 at 4:43 PM 11-27-2004

[maczrool]

Thanks for the info! Did you have the Sound System I or II? I have the Sound System I with 300 watts, so I'm hoping there's enough power from the amp to power aftermarket speakers without adding an amp. That way I would only need to add a sub amp for the W7.

Ever considered making more sub enclosures for other Touareg owners?

I would like instructions on removing the sills. Could you post them online?

Thanks,
Stu

[irom124]

I had a standard radio setup. Not sure if it's sound I or "0"
As others have pointed out, the amp is the weakest point, so I wouldn't recommend upgrading the speakers before the amp, but you can start with speakers and if not satisfied upgrade the amp. After I installed an amp and a sub, sound quality got much better than it was, even with old speakers. Factory speakers can do much better with higher quality amplification.

To remove door sills:
Remove B-pillar trim
Pry trim out of sill panel
Remove two screws in the front and two in the back
Pull sill panel strip out of mountings in sill panel and out of door seal beading

To remove B-pillar trim:
Remove airbag emblem and remove screw behind it
Pull B-pillar trim out of mountings in body and door seal
Separate wiring harness from vent

Installation is performed in reverse order of removal, just start from the lower part B-pillar and go up. Also, make sure you align seat belt height adjusment button(if you have manual adjustment) when installing the b-pillar trim, and make sure adjustmen works before replacing the screw and airbag emblem.

I'm not considering of making any more of these enclosures, because they are a pain to make, especially for the first time. Resin and fiberglass cloth/mats arent cheap either. Make sure you get a good mask, if you decide on molding one. My
mask, didn't seem to let any smell through, but I guess some fumes went through. Because I felt really dizzy after working with the resin for a while. Instruction are on the website I posted earlier. I used the plastic lining that is behind the trim panel, cut off a side of the box/lining where it goes over the wheel. Then, using carton from shipping boxes, I added required additional space to the plastic liner. I lined all of the inside surfaces of the new mold with duct tape and then used it to make the box by aplying resin/cloth to the inside of the form. I did all of this out of the car, which made it much easier. Most people start molding enclosures out of resin right inside the car to give it required shape.
Hope this helps

[maczrool]

Thanks again!

Quote, originally posted by irom124 »

I had a standard radio setup. Not sure if it's sound I or "0"

Do you have a CD changer bracket behind the panel on the side opposite your subwoofer? I believe that is how they hold the SSI and SSII amp in place. If you have the bracket, there would be an amp mounted just above where the CD changer would fit. Thus you would have the Sound System I or II installed.

I have the standard non-nav headunit with Sound System I. Anybody know if line leve signals are available at the plug going into the amp?

One last question for irom124, How did you secure the sub enclosure?

Thanks and great job on your installation.
Stu

[VenetianGreenTouareg]

Hi,

Can I have more details on "Spocks RCA creation to add an external amp", as well as "Vagging the radio to activate the outputs"?

I checked Spock's link in his footer, but did not see these items.

[irom124]

No, I didn't have a stock amp or cd changer bracket, as they don't come with standard radio setup. My speakers were wired directly to the radio.
Regarding line level output near the amp
From Bentley manual: "The optional "Premium VI - Sound I" system
uses 11 loudspeakers that are powered by an
external 300W amplifier. The radio in this case
provides speaker output signals to the amplifier."
That means that speaker level outputs are available near the amp, but no line level outputs. Those are not available at all, even near the radio, as far as I know.

You can secure the enclosure by just drilling the back wall of the enlosre and metal sheet from the car behind it, and screwing it down. Then you can use silicon around the screw/bolt on the inside of the enclosure. I decided not to secure my enclosure, because it's really tight in there, and has no where to go, front back, top or sides. It's right against the car on all sides, and goes over the wheel well. I glued sound deading material, 1/4" thick, to all sides to keep it from rattling.

[irom124]

Link about vagging the radio to activate the outputs was posted by Spockat on the first page of this topic. It activates speaker level outputs from your nav, you would still need to find pins/plug to be able to connect to that output. I have no idea what Spockat has created to connect a sub with RCAs. Perhaps Jason or Spockat will chime in about that.

[spockcat]

I made Jason a plug with RCA jacks on the end that will plug into the potential speaker outputs of the nav radio. I say potential because I am only theorizing that you can get output from this source. You seem to be able to if you add a nav radio to a car with the standard radio. If you are interested in one, let's see if Jason has success first.

[jasonrao]

Hey Yall,
Sorry I was absent- I was in the Treg most of yesterday with Spock's cable and the wiring diagram.

There is good news and bad news.

Good news: I found the wires off the (crappy) Amp that run directly to the rear doors and disconnected them. It is step one for amplifiying them with a new amp. Really should be a simple install, considering there is extra room in the triunk next to the CD changer and original amp ((not alot). One can now easily envision keeping the fron speakers amplified by the original amp, and driving the rear stock speakers with a new amp located next to the changer, using all the existing wiring. This would be a great, easy way to resolve the front speaker bias that plagues us. Thanks IROM for the wiring diagrams.

Bad news: In order to carry out my master plan, I need signal from the radio. I have the system II, Nav radio. IROM and Spock theorized that a simple Vag would turn on the normally unused signal outputs (see earlier in this link for reference). We did the Vag on my radio, and Spock made me a wire that plugs into the empty plug and comes out with two RCA jacks. I tested this with a spare amp I have in my Vanagon: the bottom line is I could hear the signal coming through the speaker but it was barely audible at any volume. I am not giving up. One possible problem is my amp may need line level input, and this cable isn't?!

IROM and I spoke offline (to avoid boring a larger audience) and he raises a good question: is spocks cable converting signal to line level? I don't know.

Also possible I need to try a different amp? One that accepts these out puts? Maybe I should have asked Spock to make a 16 gauge, regular spweaker wire 8-channel plug instead? Maybe its not needed at all.....

Any ideas on what I'm doing wrong, or what to do next much appreciated. I know this is going to work. i will eventually put together a simple set of instructions on "upgrading the sound to the rear of the Nav II radio" that could include Spocks cable and simple re-wiring in the rear. (Spock, your brilliance is a mixed blessing...).

Anyway, thanks to Irom for all the help so far.

Jason

[spockcat]

Quote, originally posted by jasonrao »

Also possible I need to try a different amp? One that accepts these out puts? Maybe I should have asked Spock to make a 16 gauge, regular spweaker wire 8-channel plug instead? Maybe its not needed at all.....

Not sure using larger gauge wires is going to help unless you have hundreds of watts. If the wiring were reducing the power level by adding too much resistance, then I think it would heat up significantly and you should be able to notice that. Perhaps what you need to do is use a larger amp.

[irom124]

Spockcat,

Did the RCA wires that you made for Jason have a convertor for converting speaker-level into line-level output? If not, then Jason is trying to use speaker level outputs for line-level inputs on his new amp.

[spockcat]

They are strictly a plug that fits into the back of the radio with 60" of wire leading to 4 RCA plugs at the end. No conversion of anything.

[irom124]

Jason, that means that all you need to do is buy a convertor like the one I e-mailed you about, cut off RCA cables from the wiring Spockcat sent you. Connect wires coming out of the plug that is in the back of the radio(the one spockat sent you) to the convertor. Then, buy RCA cable with RCA plugs on both ends to go from the convertor to the new amp. Aplifiers usually have RCA plugs only for line-level inputs. Speaker level inputs are through direct wiring of spkeaker cables.

You can also just run speaker wires from plug at the back of the radio directly to your amp's speaker-level inputs, like I have done, if you don't want to buy anything extra like the covertor or RCA cables.

[VenetianGreenTouareg]

This is exciting.

I've done this before, but in my BMW 325. A 12 month project (hacking at it here and there), but it worked great. I bypassed the factory amp and routed that low level signal to a series of amps and crossovers, and sent the amplified signal back through the factory wiring and speakers. Big project, expensive too, but sound was awesome!

You guys sound like you know what you are doing, but let me throw in my two cents. Worst case, this will give information to other pioneers out there. I've not tried any of this on my Touareg for fear of tearing into the interior body panels of my Touareg...but I'm getting more brave all the time.

1. As you probably know, there are two types of signals available to you in a car audio system. There is a "low level" and a "high level". Amplifiers require a low level input, but you can convert a high level input to a low level input with a converter ("Line Output Converter", or LOC). Many car amplifiers have such a converter built in, and as such they give you two types of inputs...low level (or "line level") and high level (or "speaker level"). In almost every case, given the choice between the two, you want to use the low level signal, as you avoid placing obstacles in the signal path (such as the LOC).

If your amp has both types of inputs, try them both with the signal you are getting via Spock's cable. Warning: Keep volume low to avoid breaking things.

2. Another option: If you have a factory amp in your Touareg already, and you have access to it (sounds like you do!), then you can probably assume that the signal coming off the head unit and going into the amp is a low level signal already. So, perhaps instead of using the outputs on the back of the radio (whether they are high level or low level), why not just disconnect the inputs to the amp for the rear channels only (leave front channels in place), and put RCA's on these...then you've accomplished three things. First, you've bypassed the factory amp for the rear channel, and second, you've located a line-level signal that you can route to an amp. Third, you are keeping the interface wiring pretty simple.

3. If #2 is successful, then perhaps spock can get part numbers/parts for the plugs used with the amp, and we can build a bypass plug/harness so we can easily build an adapter to make this possible without cutting wires. Essentially, you would unplug the harness to the factory amp, and plug that harness into an adaptor which in turn plugs back into the amp. It would do the following: 1. Provide a connection for the factory Head Unit to the front channel of the amp, as it is today. 2. Bypass the rear channel amplification, to allow us to upgrade, and 3. Give us access to the preferred low level signal output for the rear speakers...aftermarket amplification is then connected to that.

I hope that makes sense.

[spockcat]

The problem using the audio going to the amp is that it is only 2 channel. The amp splits it into 4 channels and uses CANBUS signals from the radio to modify the front to rear fading - rather poorly I might add.

The output from the nav through the cable I made is 4 channel. I just need to know what cable ends and wire gauge is required for best performance and I can build more.

[irom124]

Not sure about what gauge the wires have to be, but knowing that signal going through them is still speaker level, I would use 16 guage, because that is what VW used for speaker wiring in the car.

You do not need to have any cable ends at all, unless you're willing to sell a kit with a convertor included. Every brand amp will have different plug for speaker level input. That is why a wiring harness is usually included with the amp, with a plug into the amp and wires hanging out to connect speaker level cables.

[spockcat]

If the radio is putting out speaker level outputs, then can't jason run directly from the radio to speakers? I understand that he eventually wants to go through an amp but for testing he should be able to go to speakers. I believe that in the standard radio, this is the output and there is no amp inbetween. And people have installed nav radios into cars that had standard radios with no upgrade.

[irom124]

Yes, he can go directly from radio to speakers. That would use internal radio amp. That is how mine worked until I decided to upgrade.

[VenetianGreenTouareg]

Quote, originally posted by spockcat »

The problem using the audio going to the amp is that it is only 2 channel. The amp splits it into 4 channels and uses CANBUS signals from the radio to modify the front to rear fading - rather poorly I might add. .

Spock,

That design would truly baffle me. Absolute crap.

Here is where I got this crazy idea in the first place...perhaps you can validate? I'm referring to a PDF that I got from the Vortex (probably you!), called, "Amplifier for Radio Systems "Sound I" &
Sound II".

On page 91-52, it shows the pinouts for the amp. The Multi-pin connector A, 24-pin, has the following pins of interest to this project:

14-Leftrearaudioinput-
15-Leftrearaudioinput+

17-Rightrearaudioinput-
18-Rightrearaudioinput+

20-Leftfrontaudioinput-
21-Leftfrontaudioinput+

23-Rightfrontaudioinput-
24-Rightfrontaudioinput+

This would lend support to the idea that at least on some radio/amps, there are four separate low-level inputs to the amp.

Now, whether the real life wiring matches the docuumentation is an entirely different story. But if this is true, you should then be able to create a harness as I describe. What do you think?

[spockcat]

VGT,

If you look at the below schematic from the back of the radio, you can see the standard audio output to the amp is coded:
LO-R
LO-L
LINE (ground symbol)
This is in the same plug section that has the telephone and audio only input.

On the bottom right hand you have:
LR+
LR-
LF+
LF-
RF+
RF-
RR+
RR-
This is where the standard radio has it's output. This is seems to be where the nav radio sends it's output when it is installed into a car that originally had only a standard (not upgraded) sound system. You can see this brown plug in the photo below.

Now if you look at this same plug in a car with the nav radio already installed, you will see this brown plug is completely missing.

So I made up a cable and plug combination for jasonrao to test there on his nav radio.

[VenetianGreenTouareg]

OK, granted.

But, what if you HAVE the brown plug? Then, are there separate, low-level outputs that normally route to the amp? (FL, FR, RL, RR)

In which case, is it not possible (for those configurations) to build a harness (that connects at the amp) that would both bypass the rear channels and send the rear L & R outputs to RCA jacks, where they could be plugged into aftermarket amplification?

Sorry if I'm dense.

[irom124]

As I've posted somewhere in this thread... If you don't have Nav, but still have a stock amp, your amp is using that brown plug with speaker level outputs, not line-level. Here is a quote from Bentley's again: "The optional "Premium VI - Sound I" system uses 11 loudspeakers that are powered by an external 300W amplifier. The radio in this case provides speaker output signals to the amplifier."
Also regarding brown plug, another quote from Bentleys, "On "Premium VI - Sound I" systems, the following are outputs are input to the amplifier."

So if you have a nave, then you're missing the brown plug, and your amp is using two channel output from Nav. If you don't have a Nav, but still have upgraded stereo from the factory, you have a brown plug, and your amp is using speaker-level outputs from the radio(or a nav if you put one in later).


Modified by irom124 at 10:32 PM 11-29-2004

[spockcat]

You could either rewire the existing plug or remove it and install a new brown plug (the plug is removeable from the black carrier). Then go to aftermarket amplification and speaker from there.

[jasonrao]

Well, I'm just getting home from work and see that there are all kinds of helpful posts waiting for me. Thanks to all.

Bottom line is I will get a line level converter ASAP and give it a try. This makes sense. I have faith.

I did try at one point to simply hook up speaker wire to the plug openings in the back of the radio to a test speaker, and got nothing. THis was a very crude hook up so it may not mean anything.

The fact that I can hear signal and I am plugging into my OEM amp at the "low level" inputs certainly makes me think I need to convert the signal.

I will post as soon as I can give it a test. Would be exciting indeed. Thanks VGT for the insights. I agree there should be a simple plug in some cases, but I can verify the wires to the Amp agree with what IROM and Spock were saying in the Nav II case. Anyway, if the converter works, it really will be a simple install.

Jason

[FKI]

I used Soundgate's LOC's off the factory amp, into the new 5 channel amp/crossovers, etc. Not what I wanted to do (for simplicity sake), but sounds fantastic to me.

http://www.soundgate.com/produ....htm

Spock, this converter wire you made would eliminate the need for the Factory amp? what about CANBUS, and the ability to fade/balance/tone, etc? Will that functionality still be available?

Back when I started my project a few months ago, the CANBUS seemed to be the only roadblock in removing/replacing the factory amp.

Thanks!

FKI

PS, I have the NAV system...


Modified by FKI at 4:50 AM 11-30-2004

[spockcat]

Quote, originally posted by FKI »

Spock, this converter wire you made would eliminate the need for the Factory amp? what about CANBUS, and the ability to fade/balance/tone, etc? Will that functionality still be available?

My assumption is that the fader/balance/tone controls work on this other output also. I assume this because when someone installs a nav radio in a vehicle with the base sound system, there is no other amp for the radio to control and no one who has added the nav radio has said that they have no control when they put in the nav radio.

jasonrao will be out guinea pig on this though.

[jasonrao]

Squeek, Squeek. I ordered the line level converters last night, and they arrive tomorrow. Will post results and answer all the questions.

Jason

[jasonrao]

All,
Tried lines level converters, as well as directly connecting speaker wire from the Nav radio outputs to a test speaker: No signal.

Not giving up. The vag that Irom did to "turn on" the output worked on his. We are going to look at my numbers again and see if we can't get the signal turned on. We did switch to "4" as earlier discussed, but this hasn't worked on my radio for some reason.

Out of town all week, will meet up IROM next weekend (I hope) to re test vag numbers with a test speaker hooked up. IROM's getting a christmas card from me this year....

Jason

[jasonrao]

UPDATE:

Well, Im back in town and Irom helped me dig back into the treg.

Long story short, we had to Vag the codes again, as simply changing to "4" did NOT turn on the "standard" radio outputs, as described earlier, in my case. What DID work, was changing the final code to "7" as well. I'll recap, but Irom, you are the Grand Dragon, so correct me if I've forgotten something:

I started with: 0003077
We changed it to: 0023477

(this took care of a couple other VAG's- nav acceptance, seat belt chime, leveling, see FAQ for details). We were hoping the 4 in the fifth place turned on the "standard" 4 chanel output as illustrated by Spock above.

It did not- (and we didn't have a test speaker hooked up to verify).

Irom deduced we needed to change the last digit like this: (based on his experience of switching from stock to Nav, his numbers

FROM IROM:
I changed the last two numbers to 07, like mine is setup, this turned off the oem amp, turning off the front speakers, but turned on "extra" 4-chanel speaker output.

I then changed the last two numbers to 17, this turned the oem amp back on and left speaker output turned on, but did not add any region code.

So ultimately this worked: 0023417

Nothing else changed- still had no seat belt chimes, no nav acceptance screen, and the new chanels were putting out signal. good.

Anyway, the output is finally on, and I'm looking into amplfying and replacing stock speakers.

One Last Important note: Before Rom vagged the new outputs, I made a temporary fix to improve the front speaker bias on the premium stereo: I hooked up a very cheap spare amp I had laying around the house- I simply tapped into the bass speakers in the rear doors (wires near cd changer, see wiring diagram). Wanted people to know this revolutionized the stereo. I KNEW something was missing/wrong in the "Premium" system, and this confirms it. Even slight amplification brings the rear speakers to life. It is a must do for anyone wanting to improve the sound.

I'll post pics when the "big" install is done. Thanks again for the help. Hope this is useful for others.

Jason

[NefariousVW]

Okay, sorry to dig this up from the dead but I'm getting ready to do this and would like to know the specifics on recoding the radio module to enable both the amp outputs and the speaker outputs.

I see that 0023417 worked but don't really like to blindly change coding via VAG and I would like specifics on how you came up with that number.

Quote, originally posted by spockcat »

Here is what VAG-COM suggests for coding of module 56: Touareg (7L) - Radio Coding ?xxxx - Radio configuration (coding is the sum) +1 - TV-Tuner +2 - levelling display/Off Road module ?xxxx - Radio configuration (coding is the sum) +1 - IF-output +2 - CAN telephone control +3 - CAN multi-function steering wheel xx?xx - Loudspeakers 0 - no passive loudspeakers 4 - 8 or 10 passive speakers / 4 speaker channels xxx?x - sound system correction (coding is the sum) +1 - sound system +2 - T5-Multivan (USA/CAN) +4 - Touareg/T5-Multivan (Rest of World) +6 - Touareg (USA/CAN) xxxx? - Radio configuration (coding is the sum) +1 - remote supplied antenna +2 - CD-changer +4 - CAN-secondary display

So if I understand this correctly:

Old 0003077
0 - no coding
0 - no coding
0 - no coding
3 - CAN multi-function steering wheel
0 - no coding
7 - Touareg (USA/CAN) & sound system
7 - remote supplied antenna, CD-changer, CAN-secondary display(MFI)

New
0
0
2 - levelling display/Off Road module
3 - CAN multi-function steering wheel
4 - 8 or 10 passive speakers / 4 speaker channels
1 - sound system
7 - remote supplied antenna, CD-changer, CAN-secondary display(MFI)

All that does is allow both audio outputs to be enabled correct? Doesn't affect any other changes made via VAG (seat belt chime, Nav acceptance screen, ect)

And last but not least the following is the procedure to recode:

1) start VAG-COM
2) click: “select control module” button
3) in Direct Entry box type: 56
4) click: RECODE 07
5) change code
6) click "Do it"

Are all my assumptions correct?



Modified by Nefarious1.8t at 9:44 AM 3-16-2005

[irom124]

Based on my experience re-coding Jason's radio, It's impossible to have both, speaker level outputs and oem outputs, turned on at the same time.

The coding allows it, but when you hook up both, oem amp and speakers to speaker-level outputs, the radio gets confused, and only produces sound of the speaker-level output for a second or so, before shutting it down.

[NefariousVW]

Quote, originally posted by irom124 »

Based on my experience re-coding Jason's radio, It's impossible to have both, speaker level outputs and oem outputs, turned on at the same time. The coding allows it, but when you hook up both, oem amp and speakers to speaker-level outputs, the radio gets confused, and only produces sound of the speaker-level output for a second or so, before shutting it down.

Really????

Well that just blows my plan outta the water.

Is it possible to tap off the nav outputs going to the amp?

[irom124]

It's not possible to tap into wires going to the oem amp, because the navi is only using two or three wires, I believe (probably using some sort of digital signal, spockcat posted diagrams and explanation at some point), then the oem amp decodes and splits up the signal.

What you can do is tap into speaker wires that come out of the oem amp.