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20V Hybrid - How To

953K views 2K replies 232 participants last post by  Butcher 
#1 ·
EXTERNAL WATER PUMP BLOCK:
Quote, originally posted by John Doe »

1.How do I fit a 20V on a PG block?

The same way you would fit an 8V or 16V Head onto any old style external water pump block such as 9A/3A/PG/PM.
There are 3 Oil return ports at the rear of the head that need to be blocked as well one on the front.

* For the (3) Oil returns @ the rear ,you can either:
1. Weld them shut
2. Use (3) 3/8" NPT plug which is tapered and made to seal fluid passages.
* for the small Oil return @ the front ,if you have the:
1. PG Block you weld up the exisiting return and create a new one ("a") that matches the ABA Headgasket.
2. ABA Block you drill the ABA headgasket at the front oil return to match the AEB cylinder head.No modifications to the head are needed when using the crossflow blocks (ABA/9A/PL/AEB) since they have the necessary over hanging lip to ensure proper sealing of the headgasket.
Make sure you use an ABA 4-Layer Metal Headgasket to ensure proper sealing
PART # : 037 103 383 N
* For those wanting to know how to set the timing chain follow this useful link.
Quote, originally posted by John Doe »

2.How do I put a 20V Head onto a PG Block and still retain the distributor for Digi-I?

The whole point of this thread is too allow 8V PG G60 owners (and others) to upgrade there valvetrain without the need to upgrade there injection system.Jwatts & Mkrad have done alot of research and chip development (SNS Tuning) with Digi-I so getting a chip burnt for your application is not going to be too hard.
Anyways on with the show..for this your going to need the following pieces:
Quote, originally posted by What to Use »

1. CAM GEAR:
16V Cam Gear - 52T : 027 109 111H
2. CRANK GEAR:
16v Crankshaft Sprocket - 26T : 027 105 236B
3. INTERMEDIATE SHAFT GEAR:
Because your using a distribtuor you are going to want your camshaft & distributor to turn at a 1:2 ratio to the crankshaft.The only way to achieve this is by pressing on a 52T gear onto the IM shaft.In this case you have 2 options:
1. Using an AWP 20V (06B 109 111) Camshaft Gear and the 8V Intermediate shaft.Modify the keyway on the IM shaft to fit the camgear.The 8v used a press in half mood key way and the 20v cam gear uses a molded in 1/4 moon so it wont fit unless a path is cut in the IM shaft to fit the key onto the gear
2. Using the 16V Camshaft Gear along with the PL IM shaft.This maybe the more affordable route but it requires a spacer because the gear is going to be to far inward.
4. TIMINT BELT & TENSIONER - 153T BELT:
* OEM 9A 16V Timing belt Tensioner
Since we are usng a 220mm PG block then either of the following 151-153T belts will work.
All Belts should have a Curvilinear II profile
1. OEM AEB : PART# 058 109 119 C
5. PISTONS - 81mm
1. Stock AEB 1.8T Pistons
2. Custom set from JE Pistons through rhussjr
3. MAHLE 81.5mm upgrades from 034Motorsport
6. CONNECTING RODS:
1. AEB Connecting Rods - The PG connecting rods are too short and the wrist pin diameter on them is 22mm as opposed to the AEB's 20mm.These can be had as a combination all over vortex for under $150US
2. 9A 144mm Connecting rods with ARP rod bolts
3. Forged 144mm Connecting rods from SCAT,Pauter,Corillo,Eagle,etc


Quote, originally posted by John Doe »

3.How do I put a 20V Head onto an ABA Block and still retain the distributor?

The same procedure used for the PG block will be adapted to the ABA block.The ABA block has a deck height of 236mm so its going to need a longer belt and this is where the difference in belts come into play.
Quote, originally posted by ABA uses a longer 158T belt »

4. TIMINT BELT & TENSIONER - 158T BELT:
* OEM 9A 16V Timing belt Tensioner
* 52T IM Shaft gear used
All Belts should have a Curvilinear II profile
5. PISTONS - 82.5mm
1. Stock 9A 16V pistons with a relief cut for the #5 valve
2. Custom set from JE Pistons through rhussjr
6. CONNECTING RODS:
1. ABA Connecting Rods with ARP bolts
2. Forged 159mm Connecting rods from SCAT,Pauter,Corillo,Eagle,etc


Quote, originally posted by John Doe »

4.I want to build an ABA 20V but I dont need the distirbutor.What should my combination be like?

Well since your no longer using a distributor then your IM shaft does not need to spin @ 1:2 ratio to the crankshaft so the following applies:
Quote, originally posted by What to Use »

3. INTERMEDIATE SHAFT GEAR:
Stock 9A or PL Intermediate shaft with matching 43T IM shaft gear.Make sure you have the oil pump gear to correspond with your IM shaft.
4. TIMINT BELT & TENSIONER - 157T BELT:
* OEM 9A 16V Timing belt Tensioner
All Belts should have a Curvilinear II profile
1. Contitech : PART# STD 1256 S8M - A260107
2. Gates : PART # 5432XS
(Belt is from 1996 Fiat Bravia 1.6L 16v AH)

Quote, originally posted by John Doe »

5.What additional parts will I need?

* Exhaust Manifold from an Audi A3/VW Golf 1.8 20V NA - PART# 06A 253 031 E
* Intake Manifold from an Audi TT Quattro - PART# 06A 133 223 AT or custom make your own.
* Accessory Pulley's
All the accessory's will align the same except for the crankshaft unit.You will need to either:
A. Purchase an ABA unit and machine it down 5.9mm
B. Purhcase a Diesel unit from Smokinjoe644
* Optional Cogged Gear Pulley's
* OEM Turbo Oil Pan [PART #:068 103 601 L]
* Breather Block off plate for 9A/ABA block : This can be sourced from forum elder Peter Tong




INTERNAL WATER PUMP BLOCK:
Quote, originally posted by John Doe »

6.How do I impliment a distributor for Digi-I on an AWP 1.8T block?

Some users dont want to go through the hassle of building a Hybrid motor and would prefer to start with a new engine from a 2002+ VW Golf/Jetta 1.8T.The obvious advantage to doing this is the low mileage and the availability of parts.Unfortunately for some users,the AWP/AWW/etc engines require full SEM systems (034EFi,etc) in order to get them up and running.Allthough SEM is an excellent choice,it is not smog legal in some States.A way around this is by implimenting Digi-I or similar fuel injection systems.
ReflexTuning offers a kit that allows users who have access to a new style 1.8T engine to run a distributor in the place of stock Hall/Camshaft position sensor allowing them to use Digi-I.The end result is a rather slick looking set up and requires no additional parts by the user.(other than the engine ofcourse)
Quote, originally posted by John Doe »

7.Well I managed to score an AEG engine for dirt cheap and now I want to put a 20V head on it,what do I need to do?

Well the fortunate thing about the AEG engine is that it is an internal water pump block engine,therefore the rear oil returns in the head do not need to be modified,however quite a few parts are needed.
Quote, originally posted by What parts are needed »

1. PISTONS:
The stock AEG pistons compensate for the 8V's 10:1 CR rather nicely but when paired with a 20V head,the CR drops to ~ 8.2:1 which is ideal for FI applications.Because the AEG block has an 82.5mm bore,sourcing stock "1.8T" 81mm pistons would be a waste of time and notching the allready low quality AEG pistons for a #5 valve is asking for trouble.The AEG 20V REQUIRES you to purchase custom pistons from either:
1. JE (through JRC Motorsports)
2. Weisco
As you will not find 82.5mm 20V pistons with a low CR.
2. CONNECTING RODS:
Just like the stock AWP 1.8T,the AEG also has weak connecting rods (rated @ 350bhp).Since the AEG 20V is a custom build it is recommended that you upgrade with forged units either from:
* Pauter
* Corillo
* SCAT (most affordable)
3. TIMINT BELT & TENSIONER:
* OEM AWP/AWW 1.8T Timing belt
All Belts should have a Curvilinear II profile
4. HEAD GASKET:
06B 103 383 AF - European head gasket with the 3 oil returns.AEG headgasket does not have the 3 rear oil returns.
5. PARTS NEEDED FROM 1.8T ENGINE:
Because your starting with a non-Turbo engine block,expect to need some stock 1.8T parts.You can always improvise with aftermarket components but having stock available is always a plus.
* oil filter bracket (you can tap the stock AEG bracket for an oil feed)
* coolant Lines & hoses
* Coolant return line for turbocharger - This requires the rear of the AEG block for the coolant return fitting.
* Hyrbid Oil Pan
* Intake manifold
* Exhaust manifold

The End Result courtesy of Twinscrew20V:

& Eurosport

The collected information and projects in this thread is simply amazing...
Special Thanks goes out to the following as they made this happen:
* Shawn DeZego who has been nothing but GREAT with his helpfullness and attention to detail!Below is an image of the current state of his ABE G60 Project.

(click image to enlarge)
* Twinscrew20V
* Scirocco20v/GTibunny16v
* rhussjr
* smokinjoe644
Other Vortexer Projects:
Westcoastjay's Proect thread
WolfGTI's Project thread
**Useful thread on FI ITB's**
Some Additional Information that I found/Calculated:
Quote, originally posted by Head Chamber CC's »

PG 8V Head Chamber = 29cc (counterflow)
PL 16V Head Chamber = 49cc
ABA 8V Head Chamber = 30cc (crossflow)
AEB 20V Head Chamber = 42cc

Quote, originally posted by ROD RATIO and other Values for Common VW Hybrid's »

Block = PG
Deck Height = 220mm
Rod Length = 136mm
Stroke = 86.4mm
ROD RATIO = 1.57
Bore = 81mm
Compression Height = 40.8mm
Wrist Pin Diameter = 22mm
Displacement = 1780cc
Block = 3A/9A
Deck Height = 220mm
Rod Length = 144mm
Stroke = 92.8mm
ROD RATIO = 1.55
Bore = 82.5mm
Compression Height = 29.6mm
Wrist Pin Diameter = 20mm
Displacement = 1984cc
Block = ABA
Deck Height = 236mm
Rod Length = 159mm
Stroke = 92.8mm
ROD RATIO = 1.71
Bore = 82.5mm
Compression Height = 30.6mm
Wrist Pin Diameter = 21mm
Displacement = 1984cc
TDI CRANK
Block = ABA
Rod Length = 159mm
Stroke = 95.5
ROD RATIO = 1.67
Bore = 83.5mm
Compression Height = 29.25mm
Wrist Pin Diameter = 21mm
Displacement = 2091cc
ABA CRANK
Block = ABA
Rod Length = 159mm
Stroke = 92.8mm
ROD RATIO = 1.71
Bore = 83.5mm
Compression Height = 30.6mm
Wrist Pin Diameter = 21mm
Displacement = 2032cc
AEB 1.8T CRANK
Block = ABA
Rod Length = 159mm
Stroke = 86.4mm (AEB Crank)
ROD RATIO = 1.84
Bore = 83.5mm
Compression Height = 33.8mm
Wrist Pin Diameter = Whatever Piston you choose
Displacement = 1892cc

For those of you that have hybrid parts for sale.Feel free to post them in here but please follow the rules.


Modified by Issam Abed at 10:25 PM 7-15-2009
 
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6
#25 ·
Re: 20V G60/20V PG - How to do it... (TwinScrew20v)

Quote, originally posted by TwinScrew20v »
Or use AEB 1.8T head bolts from a 98 Passat.

But if he is using a 9A block wouldnt he want to get ARP hardware for a 9A Block?I read that there is a difference between the ABA and say 9A head bolts.
I know PG and 3A/9A have trhe same head bolts.
hmmm
Quote, originally posted by G’D60 »

PS MODS MAKE THIS A STICKY!!!!!!!!!

There Working on it... http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
 
#26 ·
Re: 20V G60/20V PG - How to do it... (Wizard-of-OD)

you guys are missing something, i have arp bolts for a 8v not a 9a block , i bought them becasue i have a 8v head on the block. the 20v and 16v heads are taller so that iswhy i thought i would need new bolts, i will ask it this way:
are the arp head bolts the same for a 16v and a 8v. iknow they cost more for 16v . but if they are the same thing then i maybe able to use the ones i have right now.
my 8v head isnt off the block to see if my 16v head will fit withthe bolts.
 
#27 ·
Re: 20V G60/20V PG - How to do it... (herby53-akaherby53)

are the 16v good to use with the 20v head, ( the 8v ones i have work with the 9a block just fine. but are shorter. why does this sound hard, i will just buy 20v arp ones , easyly done. thanks for all the great advise. keep this post on the top then it will be a sticky
 
#28 ·
Re: 20V G60/20V PG - How to do it... (herby53-akaherby53)

Quote, originally posted by herby53-akaherby53 »
are the 16v good to use with the 20v head, ( the 8v ones i have work with the 9a block just fine. but are shorter. why does this sound hard, i will just buy 20v arp ones , easyly done. thanks for all the great advise. keep this post on the top then it will be a sticky
If you're going to buy new ones...Get eht AEB ones then theres no question. Same pitch and size hole bu correct length. Other 1.8Ts use a smaller bolt.
Mine is a daily driver and so far has been reliable even in its many abused states
AC and everything is still there...But Ive been busy prettifying it to actually get the AC hooked up (needs a custom AC line made) Made it to SoCal and back with ZERO issues for Dubfest and has a touch over 12000 miles on it so far. My only currebnt issue is Im still running my old bracket mounted timibng belt tensioner and never did get it set right after the belt stretched...Im actually working on swapping the Prelude belt in as we speak (hopefully Ill get off my butt and actually finish it today
) then we'll have a diffinitive answer for the Timing belt issue.
 
#32 ·
Re: (Wizard-of-OD)

Great http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
You stated in the other thread that you could use the g60 brackets on the AEB. Just wondering if I dont need AC or PS if the charger and alt could be mounted in the front of the engine not having to mount the alt in the back. Any idea?
 
#37 ·
Re: (all-starr-me)

Quote, originally posted by all-starr-me »
I was planning on using the 16v intermediate shaft with the 16v cam gear on it so I don't have to cut anything and I don't need an extra 20v cam gear. You know the routine PL shaft goes into the 1.8 blocks, 9A goes into a 2.0.

Your spacing will be wrong for this with either the 16v or 20v sprocket and the 16v cam sprocket will rub on some of the bracketry. If you shim it to space out correctly you will have maybe 2mm of keyway in the IM shaft and that MAY hold up for a little while but with how soft this metal is it wont last too long.
You only need one 20v cam gear (for the IM shaft) and a 16v cam sprocket (for the cam)


Modified by TwinScrew20v at 6:35 AM 11-12-2004
 
#38 ·
Re: (TwinScrew20v)

Quote, originally posted by TwinScrew20v »

Your spacing will be wrong for this with either the 16v or 20v sprocket and the 16v cam sprocket will rub on some of the bracketry. If you **** it to space out correctly you will have maybe 2mm of keyway in the IM shaft and that MAY hold up for a little while but with how soft this metal is it wont last too long.
You only need one 20v cam gear (for the IM shaft) and a 16v cam sprocket (for the cam)


explain?
Pic for fun:

I have been getting alot of PM's pertaining to if this can work on an ABA so i did some research.Same rules follow.
This was Taken from Race101 Project 20/20,Placing the 20V Head on an ABA Block.Same concept applies for ABA/PG/PM/PL/Old style dizzy hole in the block.
Pics available here:

They Modified the Oil return "a" and Blocked 3 of the pipe plugs "b"


ABA Bottom Half with JE 83mm Pistons and Morosso Oil Pan


If anyone has anymore pics please post and contribute to the thread! http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif




Modified by Wizard-of-OD at 11:13 AM 3-28-2006
 
#40 ·
Re: (mrkrad)

Quote, originally posted by mrkrad »
sorry i'm gonna sound dumb here, but the thermal effects on a head with those plugs are?

none as far as I know,TwinScrew has been running his for some time now and I have not heard any complaints.
Both the 8V and 16V Head had 2 returns,I am sure the oil will find its way down and once you have an Oil cooler all should be good to go.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
 
#42 ·
Re: (mrkrad)

Quote, originally posted by mrkrad »
sorry i'm gonna sound dumb here, but the thermal effects on a head with those plugs are?
Negligible with a pipe thread. The aluminum of the head expands at a greater rate than the steel the plugs are made of and shrinks 'in' on the plug. And when it contracts...Being a tapered pipe plug...One point in the plug will be tight (if installed correctly) Thats actually part of the reason for the taper of a pipe plug http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
 
#44 ·
Re: (Wizard-of-OD)

Quote, originally posted by Wizard-of-OD »


ABA Bottom Half with JE 83mm Pistons and Morosso Oil Pan



Found project on the site
http://www.race101.com/project_2020.html
I thought there was a way to put a 20V head on a ABA, a saw a Corrodo with huge track numbers with one in a video and wondered how they made it happen, would be awsome to see how it would run with a stock DigiII system just for ****s and gigles (I would get a new standalone later)



Modified by temporalwar at 1:46 AM 11-13-2004
 
#45 ·
Re: Re: (GTi Leo)

Quote, originally posted by GTi Leo »
ok so i have an AEG 2.0 is it the same as the ABA and could i use my stock coil

The AEG follows the new design with an Internal water pump meaning it also has 5 oil returns whereas the AEB is a tall deck block and follows the old style external waterpump route.Conclusion...they are different.Are you trying to fit a 20V Head on the AEG Block of ABA Block?
Quote, originally posted by GTi Leo »

does the compression really matter if your gonna turbo it i mean it'll be betetr to keep the compression lower if you got a turbo in there

Compression matters for what goal is.TS runs a 9.5/9.3:1 CR and says he is going to go higher.For a 20V G60 or 20V Turbo the ideal CR would be around the high 9's (or a 10:1
)
Quote, originally posted by temporalwar »

I thought there was a way to put a 20V head on a ABA, a saw a Corrodo with huge track numbers with one in a video and wondered how they made it happen, would be awsome to see how it would run with a stock DigiII system just for ****s and gigles (I would get a new standalone later)

The ABA Block is the same as the PG block just different bore and taller deck.This thread applies to all VW Blocks...even AEG.If you use an ABA block then I would advise the ABA IM shaft and Distributor just for simplicity.
Digi II is a pissy system....i cant even imagine what MAF you would use



Modified by Wizard-of-OD at 2:36 AM 11-13-2004
 
#46 ·
Re: Re: (Wizard-of-OD)

Quote, originally posted by Wizard-of-OD »

The AEG follows the new design with an Internal water pump meaning it also has 5 oil returns whereas the AEB is a tall deck block and follows the old style external waterpump route.Conclusion...they are different.Are you trying to fit a 20V Head on the AEG Block of ABA Block?
Modified by Wizard-of-OD at 2:36 AM 11-13-2004

yeah my 2.0 has a AEG block and i'm thinking of putting the whole top half of a 1.8T on so the manifolds and the turbo. i was also told that i would have to change the bottom end of my engine if i went past 220whp, but i donno if the guy knows i have an AEG or if they are the same bottom. if you know if i would need to change it can you tell me please cuz i don't really wanna spend the money and if i can i wanna put a k04 turbo if i do the 1.8T top swap
 
#47 ·
Re: Re: (GTi Leo)

Quote, originally posted by GTi Leo »

yeah my 2.0 has a AEG block and i'm thinking of putting the whole top half of a 1.8T on so the manifolds and the turbo. i was also told that i would have to change the bottom end of my engine if i went past 220whp, but i donno if the guy knows i have an AEG or if they are the same bottom. if you know if i would need to change it can you tell me please cuz i don't really wanna spend the money and if i can i wanna put a k04 turbo if i do the 1.8T top swap

Its addictive...you will have to spend money
.I am not sure why the block would fall apart @ 220whp
seeing that guys are putting down more power with there stock 8V's.
For the Record i am sure you can fart harder than a K04 Turbo
 
#48 ·
Re: Re: (Wizard-of-OD)

Quote, originally posted by Wizard-of-OD »

Its addictive...you will have to spend money
.I am not sure why the block would fall apart @ 220whp
seeing that guys are putting down more power with there stock 8V's.
For the Record i am sure you can fart harder than a K04 Turbo

but then that means i can fart harder then a ko3 which is whats un the 1.8T anyways but a stock 1.8T with a ko4 outs 220 whp and 289 wheel torque so if i was to put it in a 2.0 with the 20v head i'll prob be at about 240 whp and he never said the block would break up the pistons will start to break and rods and crank
which is why i asked if the AEG bottom end is stronger then ABA
 
#49 ·
Re: Re: (GTi Leo)

Quote, originally posted by GTi Leo »

but then that means i can fart harder then a ko3 which is whats un the 1.8T anyways but a stock 1.8T with a ko4 outs 220 whp and 289 wheel torque so if i was to put it in a 2.0 with the 20v head i'll prob be at about 240 whp and he never said the block would break up the pistons will start to break and rods and crank
which is why i asked if the AEG bottom end is stronger then ABA

Thats why buying part by part is better than buying a complete 1.8T engine with half the stuff being useless(stock manifold,stock turbo,etc).
I know the ABA(OBD1) block itself to be a very good block.Has oil squirters,strong rods and rumoured to have a forged crank.
As for the AEG 20V combo,he could always get a fuzzed AEB engine and use his crank and rods in there with JE pistons
 
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