20V Hybrid - How To

[Junkyardrabbit]

So, I am under the assumption that this hybrid retains the 2.0 8v oil pump, or did I miss something. I read the entire thread. Would the oil pump be up to the task of keeping 12 more lifters pumped up AFTER the change in the circumferance of the intermediate pulley. Just asking. Applying this info to RD/HD (10.x:1)1.8 8v with 16v head and dizzy run in block for turbo application. I understand that I will have to monkey with cam pulley offsets, but all else should work, providing the oil pump is up to the task. I may or may not notch pistons for valve clearance.

[Scirocco20v]

The 2l 8v and 2l 16v pumps are the same all except the driveshaft. The 8v has a notch in it so the dizzy can run it and the 16v is splined to fit into the drive gear.

[Issam Abed]

Quote, originally posted by Scirocco20v »

The 2l 8v and 2l 16v pumps are the same all except the driveshaft. The 8v has a notch in it so the dizzy can run it and the 16v is splined to fit into the drive gear.

But the Diameter of the 16V Gear is smaller than that of the 8V therefore the 16V Oil Pump spins faster .
Doesnt matter because the 16V Gear and 20V Gear have the same diameter.

[Action Jackson]

Quote, originally posted by Scirocco20v »

Dont just look at the flow numbers when comparing the 16v head over the 20v head. The 20v combustion chamber is a better design than the 16v and can take alot more timing. Thus making it a more efficent and allows you to make more power. This is why I picked to build a 1.8l small port 20v instead of a 1.8l 16v turbo. Even though the 16v out flowed the 20v on the intake side.

I'm maybe thinking too hard about this.. but I had a thought *ouch*

With intake/exhaust ports flowing eaqual, would that help create a higher velocity of intake/exhaust gases compared to an intake out flowing the exhaust? Cuz the way I understand it, intake and exhaust velocity is just as important as actuall cfm. And for a turbo application, higher exhaust gas velocity is a good thing.

[Scirocco20v]

Quote, originally posted by Wizard-of-OD »

But the Diameter of the 16V Gear is smaller than that of the 8V therefore the 16V Oil Pump spins faster . Doesnt matter because the 16V Gear and 20V Gear have the same diameter.

Just think, the 8v spins slower because of the larger IM gear. But it uses the same gearing inside the oil pump and it doesnt have any issues.

[Scirocco20v]

Quote, originally posted by Action Jackson »

I'm maybe thinking too hard about this.. but I had a thought *ouch* With intake/exhaust ports flowing eaqual, would that help create a higher velocity of intake/exhaust gases compared to an intake out flowing the exhaust? Cuz the way I understand it, intake and exhaust velocity is just as important as actuall cfm. And for a turbo application, higher exhaust gas velocity is a good thing.

Flowing more air on the intake side is important if you're building an all motor application. Gotta suck in as much as possible and the smaller exhaust ports increase velocity and scavenging effects. It works great for a N/A motor but for a turbo engine its not the greatest design.

Since the turbo really kills the scavenging effect, I see no reason to have smaller ports on the exhaust side. Larger ports will help empty the cyl's out in the amount of time they have to do so.

Just my 2 cents.

[Issam Abed]

Quote, originally posted by Scirocco20v »

Just think, the 8v spins slower because of the larger IM gear. But it uses the same gearing inside the oil pump and it doesnt have any issues.

Yes I know there is no difference between any of the pumps but granted a 16V/20V should have a higher oil pressure than an 8V.

Found this Picture showing how the Distributor Is timed.
Once the Camshaft Gear is Lined and the Crankshaft Gear is lined then you line up the distributor shown in the picture below and hook up the timing belt.The marks on the 20V Gear on the IM Shaft should not help in the timing set up.

[gruppe5]

just to add to this post.....

PG block
PG crank
20V rods and pistons
ATW 20V head
MK3 accessory bracket and alternator
16V Intermidiate shaft and gear
16V crank pulley (timing belt)
AEB crank pulley (serpentine), w/5.5 mm spacer
Futrell VR6 waterpump pulley and correct belt
16V distributor block off plate (running stand-alone)
picture

[OttawaG60]

Quote, originally posted by Scirocco20v »

Just look at twinscrew's motor. He's running 38 degrees of timing on boost IIRC. Thats insane, 16v's cant run that N/A. Could be a good reason why he made some much power on like 10psi from his crapped out G60.

I've spoken to a few people who race 16v's and they've said 32 deg is the max timing of a 16v, after that it's not gonna benefit.
Am I missing something?

[gruppe5]

Sure, plenty of pics. Let me find them.

[Scirocco20v]

Quote, originally posted by OttawaG60 »

I've spoken to a few people who race 16v's and they've said 32 deg is the max timing of a 16v, after that it's not gonna benefit. Am I missing something?

I think you might have read wrong. I agree, 32 degrees is usually max on a 16v. Im saying the 20v can run alot more timing even when there is boost present. Thats where some extra power comes from.

[rhussjr]

[satchimo]

This is by far the most interesting thread I've read on vortex. I have a ton of stuff from VW's/Audis etc. including a complete 9A and AEB top end.
I'm seriously considering this project, but the cost of pistons & rods seriously holds me back. Any way to do this without forged internals? I read that ceramic coating pistons is decent harm reduction. How much boost is safe?

[TwinScrew20v]

Quote, originally posted by satchimo »

I'm seriously considering this project, but the cost of pistons & rods seriously holds me back. Any way to do this without forged internals? I read that ceramic coating pistons is decent harm reduction. How much boost is safe?

The reason for custom pistons is the bore. VW doesnt offer a 5v Piston for 82.5mm that the 9A requires...Or the ABA for that matter. The 1.8T guys have been known to run up into the 30s for boost on stock internals...But thats not neccesarily a reasonable comparison of what the motor is pushing for power. The AWW rods (that I have) are good for about 275ish whp. And 450ish whp on other rods.

[Action Jackson]

If I used a 9A bottom end with all stock internals... what would the compression by, based on your calculations, and would you need valve notching in the pistons?

[rhussjr]

There would be virtually no change in compression (would raise to 11.0:1 - as the 20V head typically has a slightly smaller combustion chamber than the 16V). You would need a dished piston if you planned to run turbo.

[Issam Abed]

Quote, originally posted by Action Jackson »

If I used a 9A bottom end with all stock internals... what would the compression by, based on your calculations, and would you need valve notching in the pistons?

9A CR = 10.8:1
20V CR = 9.3-9.5:1 Depending on the year.

Seeing that the 20V head chamber has 3cc Less than the 16V chamber then the CR will raise using a 9A Bottom end like Rodney said.(11.1:1..assuming that there difference between 16V and 20V is 0.3CR) or there abouts.
If you can get your hands on a 20V piston and compare them then you will see that you should notch it just for safety.

[polov8]

Hope these pics are helpful, they're of a piston from a N/A ADR coded 20v from a '96 Audi A4.

They clearly show the notch required. These come flush with the top of the block at TDC so any engine running a 20v head withpistons doint the same is going to require a similar notch.

[pqgti]

good info!

[rallye driver]

does the 9a block have the captive holes for the syncro transferbox bracket?

[Issam Abed]

Quote, originally posted by pqgti »

good info!

Thanks...been trying to get this a sticky but thats not going to happen
Guess we need to have a Chip thread to make it a Sticky.If both John Betz and David Muden dont have an issue with this thread and its there forum,then I dont see why it shouldnt be made a sticky.Oh well...

Quote, originally posted by rallye driver »

does the 9a block have the captive holes for the syncro transferbox bracket?

Take a picture of the captive holes for me or something like it.I have a 9A block infront me so I can Help you out

[Action Jackson]

Yes, it does. I've checked that. The 1.8 8v blocks are the ones without the bolt holes for the final drive case bracket.

*edit*

check out this link to pics on the vwsyncro.co.uk website. The guy created the final drive case bracket bolt hole. Obvisouly a syncro nut! He's got syncronitis!


Modified by Action Jackson at 3:11 PM 12-28-2004

[LagunaSecaBlueMK3]

Ive been doing a crossflow-g60 motor, although im not actually building it my mechanic is, im in there all the time and some of the things that need to be done according to the vortex people are a little off, maybe off is the wrong word, but i did something different and it seems to work better

for instance we used an MK4 2L gasket, decked the head a little and the mk4 gasket mates the two pieces perfectly except for a small problem with cyl1 where the gasket totally blocks off a coolant port so we tookan extremely sharp bit and just drilled thru it, and shaved the burr off. perfect! no gap in any oil drain line, nothing like that. yes the aba ports are oval shaped and the g60s are round but the aba gasket has round ports anyway so there is no need to be welding up anything or welding

as i said im in the process so as i get some interesting info i`ll add to this post


Modified by LagunaSecaBlueMK3 at 9:30 PM 12-28-2004

[Scirocco20v]

The mk4 gasket has a holes in the back where oil drains are on the mk4 engine. The ABA gasket is the one to choose when doing the x-flow head on the g60 bottom.

[LagunaSecaBlueMK3]

weird because ours lined up as if it were made for the convesion almost lol, the oil drains were excactly the same as G60, with just teenie overlap on some, as for the coolant like i said one hole wasnt there so we drilled it out

OBD1 head, G60 bottom end, mk4 gasket

[LagunaSecaBlueMK3]

oh btw we tried to put a mk3 aba gasket up to it, but the problem we found was that the port for that one oil drain was so big that the edge of the block was comming up mighty close and we werent sure if it would even seal up, i know people have done it with this gasket but in our case it didnt seem to work

[Issam Abed]

Quote, originally posted by Scirocco20v »

The mk4 gasket has a holes in the back where oil drains are on the mk4 engine. The ABA gasket is the one to choose when doing the x-flow head on the g60 bottom.

Depending on the type of Block you have.Some of the 3A blocks came with an extra lip like the 9A block on the small oil return hole to accomodate a Cross flow/16V HEad.I am not sure if the later model PG Blocks came with this but to fit a Crossflow Head on an old style block without the lip,you simple reduce the small oil return hole from an oval pattern to a circular pattern(same as block) and use an ABA head gasket for extra security.Or you could just use the ABA head gasket.
Up to you...

[rallye driver]

when you say _reduce the small oil return hole from an oval pattern to a circular pattern_ do you mean get the head welded in that area? why not just weld the block to make the little ear?

[Scirocco20v]

Welding aluminum is much easier than welding cast iron.

It's not necessary though if you use the ABA gasket. Ive done several x-flow heads on early blocks and Ive still not seen one leak from that passage.

[LagunaSecaBlueMK3]

as for the gains, the ABA head flows a touch under 160cfm stock, the G60 a touch under 130, so a 30cfm difference is like you just ported your head (averaged out, because as we know every head is a little different)

G60 cams fit in 2L heads so anyone that has already done this mod and is switching heads, its easy to get a little bump in cfm that way as well

please correct me if im wrong



Modified by LagunaSecaBlueMK3 at 9:04 AM 12-30-2004

[Scirocco20v]

You have to machine the 4th cam bearing area on the G60 cam to fit into a x-flow head. The G60 doesnt have a cam bearing journal there.

[LagunaSecaBlueMK3]

does that apply if you use TT FI cams as well? or do they make one set for every 8v?

[Scirocco20v]

All aftermarket 8v cams are machined to fit any VW 8v head.

[TBT-Syncro]

PG flows the lowest (8mm valve stems).

[LagunaSecaBlueMK3]

well its an inefficient design, think about it, its called counterflow hehe the inefficiency is written into its name