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20V Hybrid - How To

953K views 2K replies 232 participants last post by  Butcher 
#1 ·
EXTERNAL WATER PUMP BLOCK:
Quote, originally posted by John Doe »

1.How do I fit a 20V on a PG block?

The same way you would fit an 8V or 16V Head onto any old style external water pump block such as 9A/3A/PG/PM.
There are 3 Oil return ports at the rear of the head that need to be blocked as well one on the front.

* For the (3) Oil returns @ the rear ,you can either:
1. Weld them shut
2. Use (3) 3/8" NPT plug which is tapered and made to seal fluid passages.
* for the small Oil return @ the front ,if you have the:
1. PG Block you weld up the exisiting return and create a new one ("a") that matches the ABA Headgasket.
2. ABA Block you drill the ABA headgasket at the front oil return to match the AEB cylinder head.No modifications to the head are needed when using the crossflow blocks (ABA/9A/PL/AEB) since they have the necessary over hanging lip to ensure proper sealing of the headgasket.
Make sure you use an ABA 4-Layer Metal Headgasket to ensure proper sealing
PART # : 037 103 383 N
* For those wanting to know how to set the timing chain follow this useful link.
Quote, originally posted by John Doe »

2.How do I put a 20V Head onto a PG Block and still retain the distributor for Digi-I?

The whole point of this thread is too allow 8V PG G60 owners (and others) to upgrade there valvetrain without the need to upgrade there injection system.Jwatts & Mkrad have done alot of research and chip development (SNS Tuning) with Digi-I so getting a chip burnt for your application is not going to be too hard.
Anyways on with the show..for this your going to need the following pieces:
Quote, originally posted by What to Use »

1. CAM GEAR:
16V Cam Gear - 52T : 027 109 111H
2. CRANK GEAR:
16v Crankshaft Sprocket - 26T : 027 105 236B
3. INTERMEDIATE SHAFT GEAR:
Because your using a distribtuor you are going to want your camshaft & distributor to turn at a 1:2 ratio to the crankshaft.The only way to achieve this is by pressing on a 52T gear onto the IM shaft.In this case you have 2 options:
1. Using an AWP 20V (06B 109 111) Camshaft Gear and the 8V Intermediate shaft.Modify the keyway on the IM shaft to fit the camgear.The 8v used a press in half mood key way and the 20v cam gear uses a molded in 1/4 moon so it wont fit unless a path is cut in the IM shaft to fit the key onto the gear
2. Using the 16V Camshaft Gear along with the PL IM shaft.This maybe the more affordable route but it requires a spacer because the gear is going to be to far inward.
4. TIMINT BELT & TENSIONER - 153T BELT:
* OEM 9A 16V Timing belt Tensioner
Since we are usng a 220mm PG block then either of the following 151-153T belts will work.
All Belts should have a Curvilinear II profile
1. OEM AEB : PART# 058 109 119 C
5. PISTONS - 81mm
1. Stock AEB 1.8T Pistons
2. Custom set from JE Pistons through rhussjr
3. MAHLE 81.5mm upgrades from 034Motorsport
6. CONNECTING RODS:
1. AEB Connecting Rods - The PG connecting rods are too short and the wrist pin diameter on them is 22mm as opposed to the AEB's 20mm.These can be had as a combination all over vortex for under $150US
2. 9A 144mm Connecting rods with ARP rod bolts
3. Forged 144mm Connecting rods from SCAT,Pauter,Corillo,Eagle,etc


Quote, originally posted by John Doe »

3.How do I put a 20V Head onto an ABA Block and still retain the distributor?

The same procedure used for the PG block will be adapted to the ABA block.The ABA block has a deck height of 236mm so its going to need a longer belt and this is where the difference in belts come into play.
Quote, originally posted by ABA uses a longer 158T belt »

4. TIMINT BELT & TENSIONER - 158T BELT:
* OEM 9A 16V Timing belt Tensioner
* 52T IM Shaft gear used
All Belts should have a Curvilinear II profile
5. PISTONS - 82.5mm
1. Stock 9A 16V pistons with a relief cut for the #5 valve
2. Custom set from JE Pistons through rhussjr
6. CONNECTING RODS:
1. ABA Connecting Rods with ARP bolts
2. Forged 159mm Connecting rods from SCAT,Pauter,Corillo,Eagle,etc


Quote, originally posted by John Doe »

4.I want to build an ABA 20V but I dont need the distirbutor.What should my combination be like?

Well since your no longer using a distributor then your IM shaft does not need to spin @ 1:2 ratio to the crankshaft so the following applies:
Quote, originally posted by What to Use »

3. INTERMEDIATE SHAFT GEAR:
Stock 9A or PL Intermediate shaft with matching 43T IM shaft gear.Make sure you have the oil pump gear to correspond with your IM shaft.
4. TIMINT BELT & TENSIONER - 157T BELT:
* OEM 9A 16V Timing belt Tensioner
All Belts should have a Curvilinear II profile
1. Contitech : PART# STD 1256 S8M - A260107
2. Gates : PART # 5432XS
(Belt is from 1996 Fiat Bravia 1.6L 16v AH)

Quote, originally posted by John Doe »

5.What additional parts will I need?

* Exhaust Manifold from an Audi A3/VW Golf 1.8 20V NA - PART# 06A 253 031 E
* Intake Manifold from an Audi TT Quattro - PART# 06A 133 223 AT or custom make your own.
* Accessory Pulley's
All the accessory's will align the same except for the crankshaft unit.You will need to either:
A. Purchase an ABA unit and machine it down 5.9mm
B. Purhcase a Diesel unit from Smokinjoe644
* Optional Cogged Gear Pulley's
* OEM Turbo Oil Pan [PART #:068 103 601 L]
* Breather Block off plate for 9A/ABA block : This can be sourced from forum elder Peter Tong




INTERNAL WATER PUMP BLOCK:
Quote, originally posted by John Doe »

6.How do I impliment a distributor for Digi-I on an AWP 1.8T block?

Some users dont want to go through the hassle of building a Hybrid motor and would prefer to start with a new engine from a 2002+ VW Golf/Jetta 1.8T.The obvious advantage to doing this is the low mileage and the availability of parts.Unfortunately for some users,the AWP/AWW/etc engines require full SEM systems (034EFi,etc) in order to get them up and running.Allthough SEM is an excellent choice,it is not smog legal in some States.A way around this is by implimenting Digi-I or similar fuel injection systems.
ReflexTuning offers a kit that allows users who have access to a new style 1.8T engine to run a distributor in the place of stock Hall/Camshaft position sensor allowing them to use Digi-I.The end result is a rather slick looking set up and requires no additional parts by the user.(other than the engine ofcourse)
Quote, originally posted by John Doe »

7.Well I managed to score an AEG engine for dirt cheap and now I want to put a 20V head on it,what do I need to do?

Well the fortunate thing about the AEG engine is that it is an internal water pump block engine,therefore the rear oil returns in the head do not need to be modified,however quite a few parts are needed.
Quote, originally posted by What parts are needed »

1. PISTONS:
The stock AEG pistons compensate for the 8V's 10:1 CR rather nicely but when paired with a 20V head,the CR drops to ~ 8.2:1 which is ideal for FI applications.Because the AEG block has an 82.5mm bore,sourcing stock "1.8T" 81mm pistons would be a waste of time and notching the allready low quality AEG pistons for a #5 valve is asking for trouble.The AEG 20V REQUIRES you to purchase custom pistons from either:
1. JE (through JRC Motorsports)
2. Weisco
As you will not find 82.5mm 20V pistons with a low CR.
2. CONNECTING RODS:
Just like the stock AWP 1.8T,the AEG also has weak connecting rods (rated @ 350bhp).Since the AEG 20V is a custom build it is recommended that you upgrade with forged units either from:
* Pauter
* Corillo
* SCAT (most affordable)
3. TIMINT BELT & TENSIONER:
* OEM AWP/AWW 1.8T Timing belt
All Belts should have a Curvilinear II profile
4. HEAD GASKET:
06B 103 383 AF - European head gasket with the 3 oil returns.AEG headgasket does not have the 3 rear oil returns.
5. PARTS NEEDED FROM 1.8T ENGINE:
Because your starting with a non-Turbo engine block,expect to need some stock 1.8T parts.You can always improvise with aftermarket components but having stock available is always a plus.
* oil filter bracket (you can tap the stock AEG bracket for an oil feed)
* coolant Lines & hoses
* Coolant return line for turbocharger - This requires the rear of the AEG block for the coolant return fitting.
* Hyrbid Oil Pan
* Intake manifold
* Exhaust manifold

The End Result courtesy of Twinscrew20V:

& Eurosport

The collected information and projects in this thread is simply amazing...
Special Thanks goes out to the following as they made this happen:
* Shawn DeZego who has been nothing but GREAT with his helpfullness and attention to detail!Below is an image of the current state of his ABE G60 Project.

(click image to enlarge)
* Twinscrew20V
* Scirocco20v/GTibunny16v
* rhussjr
* smokinjoe644
Other Vortexer Projects:
Westcoastjay's Proect thread
WolfGTI's Project thread
**Useful thread on FI ITB's**
Some Additional Information that I found/Calculated:
Quote, originally posted by Head Chamber CC's »

PG 8V Head Chamber = 29cc (counterflow)
PL 16V Head Chamber = 49cc
ABA 8V Head Chamber = 30cc (crossflow)
AEB 20V Head Chamber = 42cc

Quote, originally posted by ROD RATIO and other Values for Common VW Hybrid's »

Block = PG
Deck Height = 220mm
Rod Length = 136mm
Stroke = 86.4mm
ROD RATIO = 1.57
Bore = 81mm
Compression Height = 40.8mm
Wrist Pin Diameter = 22mm
Displacement = 1780cc
Block = 3A/9A
Deck Height = 220mm
Rod Length = 144mm
Stroke = 92.8mm
ROD RATIO = 1.55
Bore = 82.5mm
Compression Height = 29.6mm
Wrist Pin Diameter = 20mm
Displacement = 1984cc
Block = ABA
Deck Height = 236mm
Rod Length = 159mm
Stroke = 92.8mm
ROD RATIO = 1.71
Bore = 82.5mm
Compression Height = 30.6mm
Wrist Pin Diameter = 21mm
Displacement = 1984cc
TDI CRANK
Block = ABA
Rod Length = 159mm
Stroke = 95.5
ROD RATIO = 1.67
Bore = 83.5mm
Compression Height = 29.25mm
Wrist Pin Diameter = 21mm
Displacement = 2091cc
ABA CRANK
Block = ABA
Rod Length = 159mm
Stroke = 92.8mm
ROD RATIO = 1.71
Bore = 83.5mm
Compression Height = 30.6mm
Wrist Pin Diameter = 21mm
Displacement = 2032cc
AEB 1.8T CRANK
Block = ABA
Rod Length = 159mm
Stroke = 86.4mm (AEB Crank)
ROD RATIO = 1.84
Bore = 83.5mm
Compression Height = 33.8mm
Wrist Pin Diameter = Whatever Piston you choose
Displacement = 1892cc

For those of you that have hybrid parts for sale.Feel free to post them in here but please follow the rules.


Modified by Issam Abed at 10:25 PM 7-15-2009
 
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#102 ·
Re: (Wizard-of-OD)

what about double stanking the gaskets since i'm turboing it and will have a boost controller i can upp the boost and the compression will still be nice with added power and more valve clearance. i donno if it'll work but meh. or what about a thinker gasket
 
#103 ·
Re: (GTi Leo)

Quote, originally posted by GTi Leo »
what about double stanking the gaskets since i'm turboing it and will have a boost controller i can upp the boost and the compression will still be nice with added power and more valve clearance. i donno if it'll work but meh. or what about a thinker gasket

the CR is allready "low" by most standards when placing a 20V head on an 8V block.Double stacking will drop the CR down a point bringing it to about 7.5:1,Maybe lower.The stock 1.8T has a CR from 9.3:1 to 9.5:1.I didnt know thinner HG's were available...got me there.
I would suggest the pistons dude.Honestly http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
 
#104 ·
Re: (Wizard-of-OD)

aight thats cool but now that i looking at the ABA block with JE pistons i don't see that hes got em modified for the 5 valve i looks like its just flat up agains the top of the block.
do you know how much the valves open anyways like i'm trying to figure this out and your suggestens seem to be the best way to do it but there could be others i'm just trying to figure it out cuz i wanan do this it'll be like a mk 2.0T this way
 
#106 ·
Re: (GTi Leo)

Quote, originally posted by GTi Leo »
lol what do you mean save it ABA is weak to and i'll have to change everything it would seem that the AEG would be stronger since its more liek the AEB

Early AEB's had an external water pump and followed the old style of VAG Blocks.
and ABA is far from week my friend.You will have an advantage of a higher rod ratio when comparing the ABA to AWD/AEG
ABA has a rod length of 159mm whereas the AEB has a rod length of 144mm.My advice is to at least change the pistons.You wont go wrong http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
 
#108 ·
Re: (GTi Leo)

Quote, originally posted by GTi Leo »
ABA is from a mk4 isn't it or am i stupid and thinking wrong
ugh i'll just swap a 1.8T its less hassle and cheaper and then i'll get it bored out and put 2.0 forged pistons if they will fit

Good Luck,Post up your findings http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
Just a bit of Longitudinal mounting Reference for you Passat 1.8T guys/Audi A4 1.8T guys in terms of engine mount brackets for the ABK/AEB or ABA/AEB set-up

 
#110 ·
Re: (Scirocco20v)

Quote, originally posted by Scirocco20v »
ABA = Mk3 engine
It wont bolt into a Mk4 chassis because it doesnt have the pass side engine mount mounting points.
AEB will bolt into a mk3 no problem since it uses an older style block with the exception of extra oil drain holes.

then which is the 20v head that will bolt up to a mk4 AEG is it the AWD
 
#111 ·
Re: (Wizard-of-OD)

Like Ive told you before, dropping a 20v head on a mk4 2l block seems pretty simple. You really only have to swap to a custom pistons, 1.8t headgasket, 2l timing belt and engine management to run it all. All 20v heads are the same at the deck surface. AEB's have larger ports and AWW/AWP engines have variable cam timing.

If all goes well I will be building my buddies AVH into a 20v engine and have more info on the conversion in a few months.
 
#113 ·
Re: (GTi Leo)

Quote, originally posted by GTi Leo »
hmm but which one have the 5 oil returns and which is better and is used on the 2002-2004 1.8Ts with 180 hp

AEG follows the new style of Blocks with an Internal waterpump.Only 1.8T engine to follow the old style of blocks was the AEB which was a modified old style external water pump with 5 return oil holes.
So physically a 1.8T 20V head will bolt up to a new model 2.0 block without any modifications.Just need to work on pistons. http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
 
#115 ·
Re: (vwpat)

well the AEB is 9.5:1 compression, i'm guessing with some porting and good tuning, the g60/lysholm at lower boost you might be able to rock out 10:1 or 10.5:1 without blasting the motor apart.
remember those guys hit 240wft/lbs at 21psi peak torque at 14.5:1 air fuel ratio, so those are some damn well designed combustion chambers to take that abuse.
i'd probably say raise the compression if all you got is a g60 to blow it
 
#116 ·
Re: (mrkrad)

Quote, originally posted by mrkrad »
well the AEB is 9.5:1 compression, i'm guessing with some porting and good tuning, the g60/lysholm at lower boost you might be able to rock out 10:1 or 10.5:1 without blasting the motor apart.
Considering Im wailin out 38 degrees advanced at 6500 on 11psi in 100 degree weather on 91 octane, Id agree http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif Ill have some numbers here shortly. Im lookin to bump the compression to the 9.7ish range.
 
#118 ·
Re: (GTi Leo)

Quote, originally posted by GTi Leo »
hmm but which one have the 5 oil returns and which is better and is used on the 2002-2004 1.8Ts with 180 hp


Because the motor puts out more hp stock doesnt mean its any better. They run more boost, a better flowing turbo and have variable cam timing. The AEB is actually a better engine since it comes with forged crank, rods and a big port head. Things the transverse motors wish they had.
 
#122 ·
Re: (GTi Leo)

Quote, originally posted by GTi Leo »

lol that means what they won't fit what if i change the rods


come on man.The AEB crank Will fit in the AEG block but why would you do that?You pretty much "destroking" the engine carrying it from a 92.8mm (AEG) stroke to a 86.4mm (AEB) stroke.
Lemme guess,your going to use your 2.0 Block and stuff the 1.8 Crank,conrods and Pistons in there?
If so...again good luck.Bore of the AEG block is 82.5mm and bore of the AEB Block is 81mm.If your so mind set on placing a 20V head on the AEG block just get custom pistons made for 83mm guy.Simple. http://****************.com/smile/emgift.gif
 
#125 ·
Re: (GTi Leo)

Quote, originally posted by GTi Leo »
lol not doing it just asking lol so pretty much the AEB has the same block as the 2.0. k thanks man i'll prob do the head thing and get the forged pistons to fit. you have given me lots of good advice thanks for your help

No....
AEG = Complete new Cast with Internal Water Pump and different style Oil Filter Flange.
AEB = Old Style Block with External Water Pump and Hole for a Distributor that has been modified for 5 Oil return holes.
http://****************.com/smile/emthup.gif
 
#126 ·
Re: (Wizard-of-OD)

ok, I've read through this and I have a few quick questions...
*20v head on ABA block... I've gotten conflicting info on weather or not you have to fill and mod the front oil hole, or if the ABA HG will solve this?
*Will a 16v 9a t-belt tensioner work with this setup?
*Has anyone fit the Honda belt on this setup
*If I go turbo, what luck have people had putting the 20v head with the lower 8.5:1 ratio you get by bolting on the 20v head on the stock ABA block and pistons?
 
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