16V G60 - How to

[Issam Abed]

ROUND 3.

I decided to make this thread after again getting quite a few PM's from members asking me to do a 16V G60 thread similiar to my 20V G60 Thread.Now my reply was that I had never built a 16V G60 ,I only had the knowledge and know how of a 16V (either 9A or PL) and a G60 engine (PG) and was unable to do a write up.After a while I thought about it and did the research,spoke to the guys that did it and decided I will do a write up.The following are useful links you can use when doing the Build up or you can accomodate all the 16V G60 information into 1 thread like what we did with the 20V G60 thread.

1. Bahn Brenner's own build up process.

2. Kompressor Kanada

3. OttawaG60's own personal Yahoo group (you have to sign up) that has loads of information.

4. OR-Z Motorsport's

Well thats enough,onto the tech...wish me luck

[Issam Abed]

Quote, originally posted by John Doe »
I have a PG G60 8V,How do I convert it to a 16V G60?


Quote, originally posted by Not2Fast »

Taken from this site:
PG - 1.8 8V G60 :
Compression Ratio = 8:1
Rod Length = 136mm
Wrist Pin Diamater = 22mm
Bore = 81mm
9A - 2.0 16V :
Compression Ratio = 10.8:1
Rod Length = 144mm
Wrist Pin Diameter= 20mm
Bore = 82.5mm
PL - 1.8 16V :
Compression Ratio = 10:1
Rod Length = 144mm
Wrist Pin Diameter= 20mm
Bore = 81mm


According to the information posted above your going to have to get a set of custom pistons.Bahn Brenner sells a set of custom pistons for $699.95US


Or you can contact Rodney Huss for your custom application.
The reason you will need a custom set of Pistons is because placing a 16V head on an 8V Block lowers the CR approx 1.8 Points.Since the G60 engine is allready @ a CR of 8:1 then dropping that CR 1.8:1 points lower will bring it to about 6.2:1,definitely too low for a 16V G60.
Now for the Conrods you can use your stock PG G60 rods but it is recommended that you use PL 16V Rods + Custom Pistons due to the fact that your rod ratio using the PG rods will be too short.
Now that the pistons and Rods are out of the way your going to need the obvious:
1. 16V Head,Either 9A or PL.9A has bigger Intake Ports.
2. 16V Lower Intake Manifold.
3. 16V Scirocco Upper Intake Manifold (pictured below)- This enables you to relocate the Throttle Body from the passenger side of the engine bay (LHD) to the drivers side of the engine bay.You can then still use your stock G60 filter box.
4. Distributor
Now you have 2 options for the Distributor set-up.

1.

Quote, originally posted by Distributor In Head »

1.16V Distributor, complete
2.16V Distributor Block off plate complete
3.16V oil pump, complete
4.16V Secondary shaft and gears complete
5.16V Timing belt and gears, complete
6.16V Exhaust Manifold or 16V Header



2.

Quote, originally posted by Distributor In Block i.e. Retaining the PG setup »

1. CAM GEAR:
16V Cam Gear
Stock 20V/16V Cam Gear has 52 Teeth

2. CRANK GEAR: 16v crank gear STOCK but an ABA crank pullye shaved 5.5mm with a new centering ring pressed in. Scirocco20v mods them for $10 if you supply it.or you can do it yourself.
Stock 8V Crank Gear has 22 teeth
Stock 16V/20V Crank Gear has 26 teeth

3. INTERMEDIATE SHAFT GEAR:
Combination of a 16V Cam Gear and an 8V Intermediate shaft.dont mod the gear...Mod the keyway in the IM shaft to fit the gear. The 8v used a press in half mood key way and the 16v cam gear uses a molded in 1/4 moon. It wont fit unless a path is cut in the IM shaft to fit the key on the gear to.
If Building PG 16V Combination - Use PG IM SHAFT
If Building ABA 16V Combination - Use ABA IM SHAFT

4. TIMINT BELT:
16V OEM Timing Belt


Your Physical engine should be done @ this point.


Quote, originally posted by John Doe »
I have a 16V and I want to make it a 16V G60,what do I do?

First the Compression Ratio of either the 9A or PL needs to be decreased.As stated above the 9A and PL have a CR of 10.8:1 and 10:1 respectively so you can either machine/dish the pistons to lower the CR or get a set of custom 83mm units.Below is a picture courtesy of OttawaG60 showing machined 9A units.


Now that the internals are dealt with,your going to need quite a few parts off of a PG G60.John Doe...meet John Betz


Quote, originally posted by John BETZ »

G60 G-Lader Supercharger or BBM Screw Compressor Supercharger kit
G60 G-Lader mounting brackets and belt tensioner complete
G-Lader outlet (silencer box) or BBM RSR outlet kit




Quote, originally posted by John BETZ »

G60 Serpentine / idler pulleys for water pump and alternator
G60 AC pump or European water pump pulley
G60 Throttle body, complete

Coolant flange so that the outlet pipe does not hit the Charger.

Throttle Body Adapter to enable clearance issues with Distributor in head.If you use the Distributor in the block setup.all you will need is a Peugeot distributor cap.



Quote, originally posted by John BETZ »

G60 Fuel Injectors and FPR
G60 Idle stabilizer valve (ISV)
G60 Digifant1 ECU and engine wire harness
G60 Digifant control relay
G60 Oxygen sensor
G60 Water temperature sensor (blue)
G60 CO% potentiometer
G60 Relays, fuel pump
G60 Intercooler, IC hoses to and from the G-Lader
G60 Lower water pump pipe
Upper and lower coolant hoses
G60 Radiator and fan assembly


Quote, originally posted by John Doe »
Ok,now that I have a 16V G60,what do I do for my intake?
You have 3 Options:
1.Scirocco 16V Upper Intake to place the TB On the drivers side.

2. Audi S2 3B Intake Manifold chopped and modified to suit shown below.

3. Modify your upper Intake manifold resemble what you see below



Quote, originally posted by John Doe »
I want to retain my AC,Do I have to relocate the Alternator?
Yes,Lucky for you Bahn Brenner has an Alternator relocating kit.



Quote, originally posted by John Doe »
What about tuning?Can I retain my Digi-I?
Yes you can,SNS Tuning seems to be the most favourable choice when it comes to Digi-I Chip Tuning and they can make a chip application for your 16V G60.
If you want to drift away from the whole distributor/chip set up then you can go with TEC3 from Bahn Brenner
or Stage Ic from 034EFI

Hopefully if everything works out as planned you should obtain this Courtesy of John Betz @ Bahn Brenner Motorsports


This is the original from VW:

And this is one in an engine bay


Special thanks goes out to:
OttawaG60,JBETZ and anyone else that allowed me to use pictures/info from there sites.
Please feel free to add any information possible as I am sure I left out of some.

[Scott F. Williams]

Issam for VW Playa President!

[Issam Abed]

Quote, originally posted by Scott F. Williams »

Issam for VW Playa President!

The information is all that counts

[thetatau87]

Bravo! Lots of good info here. I'm glad you made good use of the pics I sent you of the G60 charger brackets. Since I've already done this swap I was reading it for giggles and to see if I could add any info or answer questions and low and behold a spot a couple of my pics. Cool!

I do have a few words of advice for anyone contemplating this swap. First, just because a respected shop sells it as a "kit" doesn't mean that it will be a simple bolt in installation. I learned that the hard way The devil is in the details. Once you get all the parts bolted in there are lots of details such as relocating many of the sensors and related wiring.

On the bright side, if it was easy everyone would do it. If you have moderate mechanical/electrical skill and a huge amount of patience you can end up with an engine swap to be proud of, like this...

9A 2.0L 16v Bottom end
- 9:1 JE 83mm forged pistons
- Fully balanced rotating assembly
- ARP rod bolts and main cap studs
- VW 16v windage tray w/ integrated oil pan gasket
PL 1.8L 16v head mildly ported
- Stock cams
- Stock 16v dist on head
- ABA steel shim head gasket
- ARP head studs
BBM screw compressor and silencer "kit"
- At least these came with instructions. Even if they are for installation on a regular 8v G60.
- Custom battery tray and hold down made from parts sourced at Murray's Auto
BBM 16v integration "kit"
- You're on your own with this one kids. No instructions included with "kit". Not even a parts list describing what each part is or where it goes.

Link to a bunch of pics of my swap in progress http://www.hostdub.com/thetatau87_album02

Please feel free to IM or e-mail me if you want more info or have questions.

Modified by thetatau87 at 1:29 AM 1-18-2005


Modified by thetatau87 at 1:36 AM 1-18-2005

[Issam Abed]

Quote, originally posted by thetatau87 »

Bravo! Lots of good info here. I'm glad you made good use of the pics I sent you of the G60 charger brackets. Since I've already done this swap I was reading it for giggles and to see if I could add any info or answer questions and low and behold a spot a couple of my pics. Cool!

Thanks alot Brad.
Ye was trying to get some cleaned up bracket pics but couldnt find any.

[OttawaG60]

I wrote the KK link above, I'll add some info to this post.

Quote, originally posted by Wizard-of-OD »

According to the information posted above your going to have to get a set of custom pistons.Bahn Brenner sells a set of custom pistons for $699.95US Or you can contact Rodney Huss for your custom application. The reason you will need a custom set of Pistons is because placing a 16V head on an 8V Block lowers the CR approx 1.8 Points.Since the G60 engine is allready @ a CR of 8:1 then dropping that CR 1.8:1 points lower will bring it to about 6.2:1,Definately too low for a 16V G60. Now for the Conrods you can use your stock PG G60 rods but it is recommended that you use PL 16V Rods + Custom Pistons due to the fact that your rod ratio using the PG rods will be too short.

Easiest way to do this swap is start with a 9A, stack 2 ABA headgaskets.
Remember the G60 flows ~300-350 cfm, so the boost you get on a 2L 16v will be ~10 psi.

Quote »

1. 16V Head,Either 9A or PL.9A has bigger Intake Ports. 2. 16V Lower Intake Manifold. 3. 16V Scirocco Upper Intake Manifold (pictured below)- This enables you to relocate the Throttle Body from the passenger side of the engine bay (LHD) to the drivers side of the engine bay.You can then still use your stock G60 filter box.

9A has better exhaust ports, and for this application, it's probably the better choice.
IIRC not all 16v lower intake manifolds bolt up to the Scirocco.
If you plan to use the Scirocco and the Dist, you'll need an elbow to clear it as the recirc will interfere.

Quote »

4. Distributor

Stock 16v one is the way to go. Digifant will have no problems with it.

Quote »

Coolant flange so that the outlet pipe does not hit the Charger.

This is only for Lysholms, I'm using the stock 16v one.

Quote »

Throttle Body Adapter to enable clearance issues with Distributor in head.If you use the Distributor in the block setup.all you will need is a Peugeot distributor cap.

There is a drawing of an intake elbow on the yahoo group (dougG60)

Quote »

Yes,Lucky for you Bahn Brenner has an Alternator relocating kit.

There are also drawings of this on the yahoo group.
Or you can try and mount it under the G60.

Quote »

Yes you can,SNS Tuning seems to be the most favourable choice when it comes to Digi-I Chip Tuning and they can make a chip application for your 16V G60. If you want to drift away from the whole distributor/chip set up then you can go with TEC3 from Bahn Brenner or Stage Ic from 034EFI

I ran SDS with my engine, and am now working on MegaSquirt, 2 other options that would work well.

Crankcase ventilation, make sure you vent the valvecover and the front of the block, and use a catchcan, some 16v's seem to spit oil.

Corrado downpipe matches up with the 16v exhaust manifold, if you're in a Corrado, you can use that for exhaust.

Fuel rail and injectors, plenty of good 16v fuel rails out there, injectors, try Ford motorsport green (#42), they are bosch.

Don't forget the inserts (G60 injector for manifold)

I'll keep adding as I remember things I've come across during my swap.

[OttawaG60]

Modding the 16v G60

Cams, superchargers seem to be more tolerant of overlap than turbos, go for big lift, medium duration (don't want power band too high, have to overspin G60).
Try Catcams 260's or dual exhaust.

Porting charger and Pulley's, try 70 or 72mm and don't rev it to 8000
You've got more engine to fill now and a better flowing head.

P&P head

Engine management, worthwhile taking a look at.

[OttawaG60]

Belt/Pulley routing

#1: 7 pulley

#2:6 pulley

[Issam Abed]

Quote, originally posted by OttawaG60 »

I wrote the KK link above, I'll add some info to this post.

Sorry about that Jerome, didnt read the part @ the bottom.

[herby53-akaherby53]

i am mounting my alternator under the charger , does anyone have a pic of that ? i have it mounted already , but it is only in mock up stage. i need to still play around with it just want ot see where you mount the belt tensenor onto the charger bracket.

[OttawaG60]

Quote, originally posted by herby53-akaherby53 »

i am mounting my alternator under the charger , does anyone have a pic of that ? i have it mounted already , but it is only in mock up stage. i need to still play around with it just want ot see where you mount the belt tensenor onto the charger bracket.

The smaller the alt, the better. 16v one fits very nicely, but hits the subframe (Corrado).
ABA fits, but I needed to make a custom bracket at the top and it hit (rarely).

I think the alt from a Suzuki sidekick might work, it's tiny.

Use a timing belt tensioner.

[herby53-akaherby53]

dame , i mounted a 16v alt. on it , your right , fit nice and neat , but it will hit the subframe ? thats no good. looks like i am gonna look for adodge colt one or maybe the sidekick one .

[OttawaG60]

Quote, originally posted by herby53-akaherby53 »

dame , i mounted a 16v alt. on it , your right , fit nice and neat , but it will hit the subframe ? thats no good. looks like i am gonna look for adodge colt one or maybe the sidekick one .

Can you slide your hand between subframe and alt?

[herby53-akaherby53]

it is just on a stand, still mocking everything up , so i cannt check .

i am looking at this right now , a chevy alt brackets, they are adj. and i think that i can get them to mount to the rear of the motor , allowing me to move the alt to the rear . let me see if i can find a pic of the raket i am talking about. ( but the block has the wholes in the side where you would mount the a1 side motor mount, so i may be able to get it there . ) let me get a pic for you all.

[herby53-akaherby53]

THIS IS A BETTER PIC, picture this mount as if you are lookinf at the back of the motor, and i would just have to make a braket to bolt this part to , very easy, then find a point to bolt the adj arm to . the alt will be lower then the kits but it may work just fine.

Modified by herby53-akaherby53 at 10:15 PM 1-18-2005

Modified by herby53-akaherby53 at 10:15 PM 1-18-2005


Modified by herby53-akaherby53 at 10:22 PM 1-18-2005

[herby53-akaherby53]

dame it , cannt get the photo to rotate.but you can get the idea, may go to a junk yard and pull one off an old chevy to try it . may be enough room for it , but it is close to the rear motor mount and down pipe.

[Issam Abed]

OttawaG60,this is your engine?

[herby53-akaherby53]

hard to see the rear alt braket in it . is ther eany better pictures of it ? thanks and when i get a chance i will take a couple pics of my mock up , plus whne i can get one of those chevy brakets mounted and see if it really works.

[OttawaG60]

Quote, originally posted by Wizard-of-OD »

OttawaG60,this is your engine?

Nope, but exact same setup.

[OttawaG60]

Here is the setup of the alt (ABA) under the G60.

[OttawaG60]

Here's my current setup.

[Stealthpro411]

i have a really good link... ill send it when i restore all the files on ym computer t has lots of pictures of the alt. under the charger...

[Issam Abed]

Quote, originally posted by OttawaG60 »

Here's my current setup.

Monsteel,did you allready chop this Intake?Why didnt you just make a hump for the G60 charger?

[OttawaG60]

It's cut in that photo eh?
I have to make the hole a little bit bigger to allow me to fit a piece of pipe in there to clear the charger hump.

[Issam Abed]

Quote, originally posted by OttawaG60 »

It's cut in that photo eh? I have to make the hole a little bit bigger to allow me to fit a piece of pipe in there to clear the charger hump.

So whose Manifold is this?Not yours?

[OttawaG60]

Waterpump pulley.

This one seems to stall several people, I found that a factory ABA pulley fits perfectly (flipped).

[1,3LG60]

Quote, originally posted by Wizard-of-OD »

So whose Manifold is this?Not yours?

Judging from the Roma Tuning website it is taken from, it is Robert van Wijk's manifold


Modified by 1,3LG60 at 3:14 PM 1-20-2005

[mrkrad]

i think this one uses the honduh fuel rail:

[OttawaG60]

Quote, originally posted by Wizard-of-OD »

So whose Manifold is this?Not yours?

Nope, it's from Roma Tuning, I just posted it as an interesting solution to the problem

[OttawaG60]

Quote, originally posted by mrkrad »

i think this one uses the honduh fuel rail:

I don't see the rail or injectors

[herby53-akaherby53]

heres a good one. i have been thinking about this for the last 2 hours and cannt see why it wont work. someone shoot this down if i am wrong.

i can use the bbm dist. block off plate on the 16v head , run my stock g-60 dist. on the block , ( granted i have to use the TT adaptor ring, 8v oil pump, 8v crank gear, 8v intermead. shaft. ) and then jsut run the car like stock. this will elimate the need to have the crank pulley shaved. i will have to use a 8v cam gear, intmed. gear , and 8v crank gear.

am i correct?

reason for this , is i build a monster motor for my old gti , and i am getting the motor back through a trade, it only has 700 miles on it. it is ( as in the gti now ) a 14:1 2L 8v, here is a list of what is in it
je 9:1 2L 16v pistons
shaved and balanced 8v interm shaft
light weight interm gear
balanced and polished 9a rods
knifed and balanced crank
tt dist ring
8v oil pump
8v crank gear
so running the dis. in the block will save me time and cash from having another interm. shaft shaved, looking for a 16v oil pump ( i sold the one i had after i finished the motor )

i dont think that i am wrong , the only thing that may get me is will a 8v cam gear fit on a 16v cam. ( i am almost sure , just havent checked yet. ) oh and i will use a 8v timing belt. what do you think am i crazy? or am i on to something.

[herby53-akaherby53]

starting to anwser my own question, after looking around at 16v cams, doesnt look like a 8v gear will fit on it , but if i just take the center out of a adj 16v and bolt it to a adj 8v gear, it will work.
now who is the wizard on this? IS THE CAM ROTATION RPM THE SAME FRO A 16V AS A 8V , GIVING THAT THE TWO BELTS HAVE MORE TEETH ?

ie: will the 16v cams move at the wrong speed because of the 8v belt being used. i see it as the same speed as long as i have the 8v crank gear and the 8v cam gear.
to much thinking
thanks for the help, i am sure this is helpping more then just me.

[YeloCorado]

I have one too.... FOR SALE

Modified by YeloCorado at 10:28 AM 1-12-2006

[Issam Abed]

Oh Boy....Page 2

Quote, originally posted by John Doe »

I have a PG G60 8V,How do I convert it to a 16V G60?

Well first of all your going to have to get a set of custom pistons.Bahn Brenner sells a set of custom pistons for $699.95US

Or you can contact Rodney Huss for your custom application.
The reason you will need a custom set of Pistons is because placing a 16V head on an 8V Block lowers the CR approx 1.8 Points.Since the G60 engine is allready @ a CR of 8:1 then dropping that CR 1.8:1 points lower will bring it to about 6.2:1,Definately too low for a 16V G60.
Now for the Conrods you can use your stock PG G60 rods but it is recommended that you use PL 16V Rods + Custom Pistons due to the fact that your rod ratio using the PG rods will be too short.
Now that the pistons and Rods are out of the way your going to need the obvious:

Quote, originally posted by 16V G60 Parts Needed »

1. 16V Head,Either 9A or PL.9A has bigger Intake Ports. 2. 16V Lower Intake Manifold. 3. 16V Scirocco Upper Intake Manifold (pictured below)- This enables you to relocate the Throttle Body from the passenger side of the engine bay (LHD) to the drivers side of the engine bay.You can then still use your stock G60 filter box. 4.16V Distributor, complete 5.16V Distributor Block off plate complete 6.16V oil pump, complete 7.16V Secondary shaft and gears complete 8.16V Timing belt and gears, complete 9.16V Exhaust Manifold or 16V Header

The End Result courtesy of Thetatau87: