FAQ

[vanaguy]

Quote, originally posted by DHill »

Diagrams from Les. I will eventually host these on my own server for backup, but these are informative for the person who is looking for these things.

There's an error in this diagram- There is no "center" diff in a Vanagon syncro system. The front prop shaft is driven directly off the front of the main shaft. All "center diff" chores are handled by the VC.

[1.8TsyncroB3]

Drawing has been updated ! Thanks for reminding me of my long known error!

[DHill]

Step by step description of the function of a Torsen differential

Things to know before we start

1. Do a Google Images search for "Torsen". It is very educational.
2. Realize that there are two sides to the Torsen. The helical gear in the middel is actually two helical gears - one for each output shaft. The "pairs" of Invex (or "worm") gears aren't really pairs. There are three to one side and three to the other. Look at it as a two-sided unit.

Like this!

3. The ring gear is attached to the housing and is not generally considered to be part of the differential. Sometimes the differential housing is spun via a chain, or in this case, a bevel gear meshing with a ring gear. The ring gear bolts on to the outer ring.

Now, let's begin:

Mesmerize yourself by staring at this diagram:

Ignore the arrows for the moment.

1) Rotate the shaft on the left counter-clockwise (CCW) - I like to pretend I'm turning it with my left hand.
2) The helical gear (splined directly to that shaft - just inside the housing) will now be rotating CCW.
3) The top Invex gear (or worm gear) is now rotating CCW about its journal pin (the pin through its axis).
4) Since that Invex gear is rotating CCW, the one right next to it is rotating clockwise (CW).
5) Since that Invex gear is rotating CW, so is the helical gear (on the other side) to which it is meshed. Thus, the other shaft is rotating CW.

Ta da! CCW on the left = CW on the right.

To take it one step further, see what happens when you rotate the housing and watch the gears inside. Pretend you are a little man sitting on the housing, rotating with it. As long as there is no applied torque to either shaft, both shafts and housing rotate in the same direction at the same speed. From your perspective as the little man, nothing is happening inside. All gears are stationary.

Now if one of the output shafts spins faster than the other (such as in wheel slip or turning) from your perspective as a little man on the housing, things will start to happen. You will see one shaft rotating CW and the other rotating CCW, with all the Invex gears rotating as described above. It actually isn't much different than an open differential, except the Torsen has a much greater sum of frictional forces between gears than an open diff, thus "limiting slip" between axles.

Other Torsen pics:

Careful... this pic is HUGE!
http://climeg.poliba.it/~mecap...1.jpg

See how it sits inside the transmission?

A T1 Torsen diff as it comes from the factory. Note: No ring gear is attached! That's for you to do!

Sometimes the input shaft to the housing is hollow, sleeved over one of the output shafts. Makes the longitudinal transmission as compact as it can possibly be.

Not many moving parts, really.

Autozine is the best:

Here is what it would look like if it were chain-driven with a sprocket:

I thought this was hilarious. A LEGO interpretation of a Torsen diff.

Now, if you wanted to see a very literal interpretation of a limited slip differential, here it is. It's an open diff with essentially a viscous coupling on either output shaft. This is supposedly a differential made by Kaaz and it is used in Nissan vehicles, I think.

Modified by DHill at 3:11 PM 12-9-2005

[www.Euro-Cullen.com]

Quote, originally posted by DHill »

I thought this was hilarious. A LEGO interpretation of a Torsen diff.

[DHill]

The questions, misconceptions, and answers I found about AWD

Audi Torsen transmission designs:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2336254

Finding out what's in the new Mazdaspeed 6
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2175261

Wondering what the Touareg drivetrain looks like:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2020857

Available transmissions for Audi:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2060883

When I first started looking at a way to beef up the Syncro:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1812800

Learning about the best places for new automotive technical info:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1935311

Questions about bolting an 02C to a VR6
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1843317

A not so useful thread about putting that power to all 4 wheels:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1558961

Cryo treating gears?
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1586268

My early questions about Syncro:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1434256

[vanaguy]

I am almost positive my son has the pieces needed to build this! Now if I could just find them all...

Quote, originally posted by www.Euro-Cullen.com »

Has anyone seen the Lego 8880 kit? It's 4-wheel steering, 4-wheel ind. suspension, and AWD with 3 diffs!

http://cgi.ebay.com/Lego-Techn...wItem

You can view the instructions here:
http://www.hccamsterdam.nl/brickfactory/index.htm

[swingwing205]

Quote, originally posted by vanaguy »

I am almost positive my son has the pieces needed to build this! Now if I could just find them all... Has anyone seen the Lego 8880 kit? It's 4-wheel steering, 4-wheel ind. suspension, and AWD with 3 diffs! http://cgi.ebay.com/Lego-Techn...wItem You can view the instructions here: http://www.hccamsterdam.nl/brickfactory/index.htm

Hey, it's like "Rallye racing 101", for kids!

I need this Lego kit!

[vanaguy]

Quote, originally posted by swingwing205 »

Hey, it's like "Rallye racing 101", for kids! I need this Lego kit!

For kids? What would they do with it?

And I saw it first!

[DHill]

I just got some more info on the VR6 Syncro bellhousing for anyone that cares:

Seems like RPI can get ahold of these -

http://www.rpiequipped.com
mike@rpiequipped.com
warren@rpiequipped.com

I have tried to order this same part from RPI before but it fell through. I think they work directly with VW of Germany now, so they purchase it from VW's new old stock.

RPI charged me $760 Canadian (~$670 USD) plus shipping. Considering how rare these are, prices vary wildly depending on if the seller knows what he's got. I've seen as low as $375 (used, before shipping) and as high as $920 (new, shipped). Part number is O2C 301 107 C.

Meanwhile...

I found Haris' (94Volkswagen) thread when he converted his Corrado to Syncro before his insane R32 swap.

Syncro: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1173916
Haldex: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2160306

I didn't know this, but Haris already had an idea that I just came up with. He tried to merge an 02A VR6 FWD bellhousing with an 02C G60 Syncro bellhousing to make a homemade VR6 02C Syncro bellhousing. Sucky thing is the welding warped the metal, and it didn't work out. But - that's one way to do it!

Here's where he chopped it:

And here's how he put them together (before welding):

Haris - thanks for letting me use your work as a reference.

[yellorado]

great relatively low budget suspention for syncro b3's (write up)

hi all, well heres my story, i bought my syncro a few months ago and pretty much started looking for a lowering/stiffer setup for it without breaking the bank...
right from the beginning i had the option to use a set of ground control sleeves i had laying around the garage...

after much reading and researching i have gathered and tryed out this set-up for only about 500 cdn dollars... (425us range, guess)

front: find a pair of used bilstein (or konis or other hight quality shocks) for golf/jetta 2 or 3, these are very easy to get here on vortex and can be had for approx 150$.
i bought the complete stuts and grinded of the spring plates and the sleeves drop pressfit on the weld "ring" left there, fits perfect and tight.

rear: here is where more research was done, i had heard of people using rabbit rear shocks because the factory application is rare/expensive/hard to get.
again i search the vortex and found a pair of rear bilstein to use in the back, since the rabbit bilstein has a wider body than the 2/3 ones, again the sleeves drop on the adjusting ring with just a bit of slack (i shimed with a couple rubber o rings to stabilize it)
the shock fits perfect, has the right lenght and bolts right in.

notes: if going like me with sleeves, you can get any rate spings for around 40 bucks a piece, i used 300psi front and 250psi rear, it was the recommanded rates for a vr6 station by dick shine on an old post in the faq's
it works great for me, not too hard, very controlled and absolutelly streetable...

if using stock style springs, in the front, you should probably use any good aftermarket golf/jetta 3 or b3/b4 vr6 springs considering the g-60 is much heavier than a 16v engine... (you might have to "adjust" the lenght of the springs, use your imagination)

in the back, you might need to adapt the rear spring plate from the factory shock to fit the spring... i am not sure what aftermarket spring would work in the back, something strong from a b3/b4 wagon specific application (some aftermarket springs dont deferentiate sedan from wagon )might work. (again you might have to cut, er, "adjust" the spring lenght )

another thing to consider is: you could possibly mix and match front coilovers bought used for 2/3 and complete with rear rabbit coilovers from someone that owns a rabbit pick-up and split the cost...(spring rateswould need to be verified).
vwvortex and ebay here are your friends...

to complete this write-up, i did this whole research because, after all my syncro is my "winter car" and i couldn't justify the 1000 bucks + for the 2 or 3 options available on here. handling is unbelievable, cargo capacity still great (had 3 people in the back with no issues) and its nice and low and i can adjust the height from bus like stock to dragging the pan low

hope this helps

[BMP20th]

Quote, originally posted by DHill »

Q: But I really really really really want Torsen. Can't I just swap in a Quattro drivetrain so I can do silly burnouts like the Dahlback Golf all day long? Can't I? A: Yes.... but be prepared to get to work. For a long time. http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1170697

this thread is kind of pointless. i read some of it in hopes of some ideas but he never finished and there is no other information.

[DHill]

Little "oil pan" housing on the side of the Haldex unit part numbers:

Looks like there is an additional "A" on the R32 parts, don't know if that is because of a differentiation between metal and plastic.

The R32 part is $57.01 (special order) and the gasket is $5.97. For the TT, the cover is $39.43.

R32: 02D 525 083A ($57.01)
TT: 02D 525 083 ($39.43)

Gasket: 02D 525 089 ($5.97)

[phatvr6]

Syncro swap into a corrado with pics

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1755494

[DHill]

Q: What bearings do I get for my Syncro rear control arms?

Ask Les! --> http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3505869

Thanks Les!

[04RSR32]

Are Syncro parts required to do a Haldex Conversion on a MK III? Sorry if this has been asked already.

[yellowslc]

Thanks to Marcel we have some setups:
Front 5x100, stock width, 02M gearbox
Front suspension: Golf Mk2, VR6 hubs in G60 spindles
Driveshafts: Left Seat Ibiza TDI, part# 6Q0 407 271 J. Right shortened 4Motion, hollow type.
Front brakes: VR6 288, Audi TT or bigger bolt-on kits, adapter needed. (ESC Tuning.)
Prop shaft: Passat G60 middle section with 100mm CV, shorted TT item front and shorted G60 item rear.
Rear 5x100, stock width
Rear left driveshaft: G60 Syncro shaft, shortened, inner CV joints 4Motion, outer VR6
Rear right driveshaft: G60 Syncro shaft, shortened, inner CV joints 4Motion, outer VR6
Rear trailing arms: G60 Syncro
Rear hubs: VR6 Syncro, optional VR6 front hubs and 4Motion outer CV-joints
Rear brakes: VR6 Syncro

Front 5x100, wide track, 02M gearbox
Front suspension: Golf Mk3 Gti 8v 16v VR6 / Corrado VR6, 5x100
Driveshafts: Custom driveshafts with 4Motion inner CV and Sharan outer CV. http://www.driveshaft.co.uk/index_content.cfm
Front brakes: Audi TT or bigger bolt-on kits
Prop shaft: Passat G60 middle section with 100mm CV and, shorted TT item front and shorted G60 item rear.
Rear 5x100, wide track, 4Motion outer CV joints
Rear left driveshaft: G60 Syncro shaft with CV joints from 4Motion
Rear right driveshaft: G60 Syncro shaft with CV joints from 4Motion
Rear hubs: 5x100 VR6 front hubs
Rear brakes: stock VR6 Syncro
Rear trailing arms: VR6 Syncro

Front 5x100, wide track, 02C / 02J gearbox
Front suspension: Golf Mk3 Gti 8v 16v VR6 / Corrado VR6, 5x100
02J 4Motion (from 2000) or 02C gearbox, optional upgraded internals.
Skoda Angle Drive, part# 02C 409 053M.
Driveshafts: Stock VR6 Syncro with Sharan outer CV
Front brakes: Audi TT or bigger bolt-on kits
Prop shaft: Stock G60 Syncro with optional 100mm CV's from Audi TT
Rear 5x100, wide track
Rear left driveshaft: G60 Syncro shaft with CV joints from 4Motion
Rear right driveshaft: G60 Syncro shaft with CV joints from 4Motion
Rear hubs: 5x100 VR6
Rear brakes: stock VR6 Syncro
Rear trailing arms: VR6 Syncro

Front 4x100, stock width, 02C / 02J gearbox
Front suspension: Golf Mk3, 4x100
02J 4Motion (from 2000) or 02C gearbox, optional upgraded internals.
Skoda Angle Drive, part# 02C 409 053M.
Driveshafts: Stock G60 Syncro
Front brakes: G60 280 mm, optional S2 callipers. 305 mm. Brembo from Seat Ibiza Cupra R
Prop shaft: Stock G60 Syncro, optional 100 mm CV's from Audi TT
Rear 4x100, stock width
Rear left driveshaft: G60 Syncro shaft, shortened, with inner CV joints from 4Motion
Rear right driveshaft: G60 Syncro shaft, shortened, with inner CV joints from 4Motion
Rear trailing arms: G60 Syncro
Rear hubs: G60 Syncro
Rear brakes: G60 Syncro

Front 4x100, wide track, 02C / 02J gearbox
Front suspension: Golf Mk3, 4x100
02J 4Motion (from 2000) or 02C gearbox, optional upgraded internals.
Skoda Angle Drive, part# 02C 409 053M.
Driveshafts: Stock Mk3 Syncro
Front brakes: G60 280 mm. Optional S2 callipers, 305 mm. Brembo from Seat Ibiza Cupra R
Prop shaft: Stock G60 Syncro with optional 100mm CV's from Audi TT
Rear 4x100, wide track
Rear left driveshaft: G60 Syncro shaft, with inner CV joints from 4Motion
Rear right driveshaft: G60 Syncro shaft, with inner CV joints from 4Motion
Rear trailing arms: Golf 3 Syncro
Rear hubs: G60 Syncro
Rear brakes: G60 Syncro

[jettaboy_gtx]

Quote, originally posted by yellowslc »

Thanks to Marcel we have some setups: Front 5x100, stock width, 02M gearbox Front suspension: Golf Mk2, VR6 hubs in G60 spindles Front brakes: VR6 288, Audi TT or bigger bolt-on kits, adapter needed. (ESC Tuning.)

this is not entirely true. spacers from ECS work with VR6 spindles for TT and R32 brakes. But when using G60 spindle with VR6 hub spacers wont work because the caliper needs to be move in the oposite direction and only way is to machine the caliper carrier down couple of mm. I dont remember exactly now but im pretty sure it was 2.5-3mm

[Zupek]

Q: Where can I source new bushings for a Syncro "rear end" since the stock rubber bushings are all outdated, cracking and are completely sucky.
A: I was able to find them here http://www.powerflex.co.uk/pro....html. These are polyurethane though and supposively the price isn't worth it. You would probably be better off just getting stock replacements. (dont have the part number sorry)


Modified by Zupek at 2:29 PM 4-22-2009

[OL' SKOOL]

Q: Would it cause an issue to run slightly different sized tires front to rear in a 4 motion system?
Q: Is the center diff open?

[Zupek]

Quote, originally posted by OL’ SKOOL »

Q: Would it cause an issue to run slightly different sized tires front to rear in a 4 motion system?

Not really no. Different tire sizes on the same differential can load the bearings different and cause bearing/gear/diff failure, but its a slow going process, its not instantenous. Using different tire sizes front to back may make the rear end power "slightly off" but I highly doubt you would notice a difference. HOWEVER, In any "AWD" car, it's best not to risk differential faillure, so run the same time size. However, if in a bind, a couple weeks SHOULDN'T kill it (make no promise, it's really all dependent on many different variables.

Quote, originally posted by OL’ SKOOL »

Q: Is the center diff open?

The "center diff" is a Viscous Coupler meaning that it will engage the rear differential when then fluid in the "center" diff binds up from there being too much of a speed difference between sides of the differential. The driveshaft to the center diff does not spin the "center" diff until there is slippage on the front wheels. The delay is milliseconds so the AWD and CENTERDIFF engage immediately as the CENTERDIFF notices a speed differential between the front of the centerdiff and the rear of it and which engages the back end of the centerdiff which, in return, turns the REAR diff. There ya go, thats how it all works.

[Sleeper-Dub]

Q: Has anyone ever tried to use the audi tt rear beam and trailing arms (independent multilink) on a mk2/3 for a haldex swap? Would it still work correctly if it had to be shortened to fit under a mk2/3? (i.e. make the links shorter)


Modified by Sleeper-Dub at 4:35 PM 12-9-2009

[d1rtyj4k3]

not sure if this has been asked yet, but i scanned the whole FAQ and didnt come up with a clear answer
is the rear diff of a b3 syncro open or is it limited slip, i do not care about the front i just wanna know if power will go to both the rear wheels in a rwd only setup????

[2doorV6]

aweome thread very good information source

[Zupek]

Quote, originally posted by d1rtyj4k3 »

not sure if this has been asked yet, but i scanned the whole FAQ and didnt come up with a clear answer is the rear diff of a b3 syncro open or is it limited slip, i do not care about the front i just wanna know if power will go to both the rear wheels in a rwd only setup????

It's an open rear diff w/ a viscous coupler infront of it. meaning that the rear will only engage if the front starts to slip and its near an instantaneous transfer of power.

[voorat]

I'm in S.A and VW never released the Golf 3 syncro so spares is none existing. We do have however alot of the Audi S3 2002's. I do understand that this is essentially haldex and that it's the same but will the Rear subframe fit the golf 3. Yes I know I have to modify brackets mounting points maybe etc. but won't the subframe be to wide for the body?

[Zupek]

Quote, originally posted by voorat »

I'm in S.A and VW never released the Golf 3 syncro so spares is none existing. We do have however alot of the Audi S3 2002's. I do understand that this is essentially haldex and that it's the same but will the Rear subframe fit the golf 3. Yes I know I have to modify brackets mounting points maybe etc. but won't the subframe be to wide for the body?

From this post, it sound's like you are asking "Can I use the subframe from a 2002 Audi S3?"

With enough time and money anything is possible. A better and easier (and probably more cost effective) solution would be to find a syncro rear subframe and do the haldex conversion listed earlier in the FAQ.

Again the Mk3, with the brackets, is a direct "bolt-in" (as far as getting the rear subframe in the car). You'll still need to figure out how to brace the rear diff as there is a mounting place in the middle. (see picture)

[durtydubmk3]

is it possible to do a syncro conversion on a mk1 scirroco ith a 16v?.. if so what will i need?

[Zupek]

is it possible to do a syncro conversion on a mk1 scirroco ith a 16v?.. if so what will i need?

1) Please read the ENTIRE FAQ thread

2) You'll need a G60 02C (4cyl passat syncro) transmission

3) Read the ENTIRE FAQ THREAD, please

[boravr6NS]

Q: Has anyone ever tried to use the audi tt rear beam and trailing arms (independent multilink) on a mk2/3 for a haldex swap? Would it still work correctly if it had to be shortened to fit under a mk2/3? (i.e. make the links shorter)


Modified by Sleeper-Dub at 4:35 PM 12-9-2009

Similar to this question...does anyone know if the audi tt Rear trailing arms etc. work on a mk4 vw?

[Zupek]

removed for my lack of Mk4 knowledge

[fouckhest]

Similar to this question...does anyone know if the audi tt Rear trailing arms etc. work on a mk4 vw?

Audi TT rear trailing arms will NOT "bolt-in"....they can be made to work, but with extreme fabrication. this is how i did my Haldex swap.

if you are in the Southeast i could point you to the shop that did the fab work for me. But if you can source a pan that will be much easier

[boravr6NS]

Audi TT rear trailing arms will NOT "bolt-in"....they can be made to work, but with extreme fabrication. this is how i did my Haldex swap.

if you are in the Southeast i could point you to the shop that did the fab work for me. But if you can source a pan that will be much easier

That's kind of what I am wondering. I have seen the r32 floor pans grafted into golfs and jettas. I was wondering if the tt floor pan would work as well?

[fouckhest]

That's kind of what I am wondering. I have seen the r32 floor pans grafted into golfs and jettas. I was wondering if the tt floor pan would work as well?

"technically" it will, but there is more fabrication required due to the difference in length

[rollercoasterracer]

Cool page that has a lot of useless/useful information on it.

http://www.carfolio.com/specificatio...1101#a_general

[HighPSI_GTI]

Quick question.. I didnt see it in here but will the 24v Vr6 tranny bolt to the 12v Vr6? for some reason i thought it was different.