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    Thread: Haldex upgrade question

    1. 04-01-2005 01:45 PM #1
      Like many of you, I have read and re-read the article in the current European Car about the Haldex upgrade. I have read and re-read all the postings from Rich at EIP and from Ian (Daemon42), but still I wonder...

      It seems to me that having the rear wheels get torque faster would also be a tremendous advantage in the snow and slippery conditions, not just the autocross track where it was tested, no? (personally I got the R for foul weather traction more than its track abilities)

      I have a basic understanding of how the Haldex works, but I don't get how with the upgraded software it works faster; does it just "think" its slipping when the same amount of torque wouldn't have upset the original software?

      I think this is a great marketing idea too - the reviews here on the 'tex and in European Car both say "its for advanced drivers only" and "only expereinced and skilled drivers will notice the difference" and other similar disqualifiers - well what R owner do you know wouldn't say they are an "advanced" driver? I know I think I'm pretty good, and I'm sure you do to, right?
      So the question here is: "C'mon, really?"
      Is it any harder to drive than a rear-wheel drive car? Or is it just different enough from a front-wheel driver to cause confusion?

      Also: if the R + Haldex upgrade = a more neutral handling ride, has anyone added a rear sway to the equation yet?

      Looking forward to more reading!


    2. Member rabbitgtibbar's Avatar
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      04-01-2005 01:48 PM #2
      The big difference is what can best be described as active engagement vs. passive engagement. The stock unit is passive, that is, when the fronts slip the rears get torque. The HPP is active, that is, when it feels the fronts *might* slip it engages.
      Descartes thoughtlessness was the bane of his existence.

    3. Member Nebby's Avatar
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      04-01-2005 01:51 PM #3
      Nice car in that European Car article eh?

      I don't consider myself an advanced or super-skilled driver, but I think that the HPP upgrade is worth it for getting rid of torque-steer alone.

      It does what it does faster because it takes into consideration other factors and can "predict" when you'll need more rear wheel bias.

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    4. Member rabbitgtibbar's Avatar
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      04-01-2005 01:52 PM #4
      You got torque steer?
      Descartes thoughtlessness was the bane of his existence.

    5. Member Nebby's Avatar
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      04-01-2005 01:53 PM #5
      Quote, originally posted by rabbitgtibbar »
      You got torque steer?

      There is definitely torque-steer in the R32 on hard acceleration, much less pronounced than a FWD GTI, but it's there. Completely gone with the HPP upgrade. Many people have commented similarly.

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    6. Member JOJOLYNCH's Avatar
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      04-01-2005 01:59 PM #6
      Quote, originally posted by rabbitgtibbar »
      You got torque steer?
      If I punch it in mine I get a little bit of torque steer.

    7. Member rabbitgtibbar's Avatar
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      04-01-2005 02:01 PM #7
      Hmm. I drive mine pretty hard, both now and before I got the HPP, and I never noticed it.
      Descartes thoughtlessness was the bane of his existence.

    8. 04-01-2005 02:01 PM #8
      Quote, originally posted by VAsteve »
      Like many of you, I have read and re-read the article in the current European Car about the Haldex upgrade. I have read and re-read all the postings from Rich at EIP and from Ian (Daemon42), but still I wonder...

      It seems to me that having the rear wheels get torque faster would also be a tremendous advantage in the snow and slippery conditions, not just the autocross track where it was tested, no? (personally I got the R for foul weather traction more than its track abilities)

      I have a basic understanding of how the Haldex works, but I don't get how with the upgraded software it works faster; does it just "think" its slipping when the same amount of torque wouldn't have upset the original software?

      I think this is a great marketing idea too - the reviews here on the 'tex and in European Car both say "its for advanced drivers only" and "only expereinced and skilled drivers will notice the difference" and other similar disqualifiers - well what R owner do you know wouldn't say they are an "advanced" driver? I know I think I'm pretty good, and I'm sure you do to, right?
      So the question here is: "C'mon, really?"
      Is it any harder to drive than a rear-wheel drive car? Or is it just different enough from a front-wheel driver to cause confusion?

      Also: if the R + Haldex upgrade = a more neutral handling ride, has anyone added a rear sway to the equation yet?

      Looking forward to more reading!

      1. The Haldex PP doesn't need to "think" about engaging particularly because the fronts are slipping. The Haldex upgrade works/engages in exactly the same manner as the stock unit, except more aggressively... think torque-biased. The new software can anticipate how much power to transfer to the rear before there's any power delivered - it does this by monitoring the throttle position.

      2. On to the "experienced/advanced" driver noticeablilty... Think stock R32, no HPP or RSB - remember how hard it was to bring out the rear end? Add the RSB + HPP = much more lively (really sweet). Basically, if you push yourself AND the car, you'll definitely notice.

      3. I had the RSB first - thought that was the greatest mod ever... then I added H&R coilovers which superceeded my previous opinion... and finally came the HPP Now I'm in heaven... well make that cloud 9 until I achieve FI


    9. 04-01-2005 02:08 PM #9
      Quote, originally posted by rabbitgtibbar »
      Hmm. I drive mine pretty hard, both now and before I got the HPP, and I never noticed it.

      Before the HPP, I experieced torque-steer on those really hard starts... you know... the shift changes at 6800rpm that chirp the tires?

      Now it's gone with the HPP And I can pull out the rear On-Demand


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      04-01-2005 02:18 PM #10
      Quote, originally posted by nebuchadnezzar »
      ........I don't consider myself an advanced or super-skilled driver, .....

      Don't sell yourself short, Eugene. Most, if not all of the people that post in this forum are at the very least 'above-average' drivers, and many here fall into more advanced categories. We are all attuned to our vehicles, and acutely aware of our surroundings. And even though I've been known to bitch about their inexperience, some of the younger members may not have well-defined skills yet, but their hearts are in the right place.
      I think this upgrade would make a noticable difference for at least 98% of the people that post here. I just wish it was more affordable.
      --Chuck--


    11. Member JOJOLYNCH's Avatar
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      04-01-2005 02:19 PM #11
      It's very minor. Maybe mine's just faster than yours jeremy.

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      04-01-2005 02:21 PM #12
      Quote, originally posted by JOJOLYNCH »
      It's very minor. Maybe mine's just faster than yours jeremy.

      Maybe it's just your tire pressure?
      --Chuck--


    13. Member JOJOLYNCH's Avatar
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      04-01-2005 02:24 PM #13
      I'm pretty sure it's just all the sick hp I'm putting down!! Lol

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      04-01-2005 03:03 PM #14
      Quote, originally posted by speedbump2 »

      ...And even though I've been known to bitch about their inexperience, some of the younger members may not have well-defined skills yet, but their hearts are in the right place.
      --Chuck--

      I now have a 'spidey-sense' for when someone is about to enter my R's danger area.
      i think that it has to do with owning an expensive and aggressive car. i worry about it too much.
      but in my 03 jetta, i got hit twice.


    15. Member rabbitgtibbar's Avatar
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      04-01-2005 03:05 PM #15
      Quote, originally posted by JOJOLYNCH »
      It's very minor. Maybe mine's just faster than yours jeremy.

      Descartes thoughtlessness was the bane of his existence.

    16. Member Nebby's Avatar
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      04-01-2005 03:22 PM #16
      But then again guys, I did add the latest Jay-Mod, the billet power steering fluid cap, that may be the reason I feel no torque-steer as well.

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    17. 04-01-2005 03:33 PM #17
      Riddle me this....Does it make the car handle better in snow and low traction conditions? Sometimes I wish there was a fulltime AWD setting. Seems like by the time haldex is sending power I am looking at the ditch. Does anyone know how to make the AWD work full time via a switch??? I don't know what qualifies as an advanced driver, but I have only been 1/2 way in the ditch 1 time in hard pack snow conditions. Maybe some more aggressive tires are needed?




      Modified by Bl@ckMagic at 2:40 PM 4-1-2005


    18. Member JOJOLYNCH's Avatar
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      04-01-2005 03:44 PM #18
      On a serious note, this is something I'm considering doing. I don't track my car, not saying I won't I just haven't, is it still worth it? I assume it is. The concept of what it does appeals to me, but sometimes the real world application doesn't meet the conceptual application. This isn't the case is it? Jeremy? Neb?

    19. 04-01-2005 03:58 PM #19
      I'm often in the minority, but...

      I find the HPP great for everyday normal driving. I am no expert, but it achieves 'weight transfer' and on throttle attitude instantly, giving what I feel is a more balanced attitude under most conditions. I do a lot of city/suburban driving and it seems the HPP kicks in real quick with light throttle making the car feel better in everyday driving conditions. To some extent, it makes it feel more like RWD, although I've never felt torque steer on my R. Also, do not have an a/m RSB(still on order).


      Modified by r32senior at 12:59 PM 4-1-2005


    20. 04-01-2005 04:08 PM #20
      I'm starting to want this.

      Question though, sometimes I'm really out there (will not discuss because I don't want to get this locked), is this going to put me in the ditch?

      And intested in bad weather, it would seem like more rear faster would be better, anyone have the chance to use it in snow yet.


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      04-01-2005 04:21 PM #21
      Thanks for the reply. I think I'm definately gonna do it!

    22. Member rabbitgtibbar's Avatar
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      04-01-2005 06:33 PM #22
      Quote, originally posted by redbomber1.8t »
      And intested in bad weather, it would seem like more rear faster would be better, anyone have the chance to use it in snow yet.

      The day I got this installed, I drove to EIP in a raging snow storm, there was already 4 inches down and about an two inches an hour coming down. The R was surefooted driving up, but even more so driving back. It was also much easier to get the ass out when I wanted it to.

      In the dry, it is less easy to tell that it's there, but still...you can tell. Cornering has a bit less push, but just a bit, and launches are made with less "excitement" but, at the same time, more excitement.

      Descartes thoughtlessness was the bane of his existence.

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      04-01-2005 06:38 PM #23
      Quote, originally posted by r32senior »

      I find the HPP great for everyday normal driving. I am no expert, but it achieves 'weight transfer' and on throttle attitude instantly, giving what I feel is a more balanced attitude under most conditions. I do a lot of city/suburban driving and it seems the HPP kicks in real quick with light throttle making the car feel better in everyday driving conditions.

      I'm with r32senior on this. Car just felt more planted on the road as soon as I drove mine out of the shop (instantly noticeable).

      And the neutral cornering grip at higher speed......

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    24. 04-01-2005 07:27 PM #24
      Im not gonna say im an advanced driver at all...ill let you all find out on a 1 on 1 basis.....

      Only time ive been to a track is Waterfest last year to drag my A4. I dont do autocross or go sliding around on public roads like Gabe, that memory still gives me goosebumps...

      For me

      1. Can you smoke all four tires with this upgrade?
      2. Will it make me a better street racer?

      Anyone know if its possible to develop a system like the STi?


    25. Member rabbitgtibbar's Avatar
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      04-01-2005 07:30 PM #25
      Quote, originally posted by factoryfast »
      For me

      1. Can you smoke all four tires with this upgrade?
      2. Will it make me a better street racer?

      Anyone know if its possible to develop a system like the STi?

      If you have enough power to smoke all for before the HPP, you can after. If you don't, then no.

      It would probably decrease your 60' times.

      No, it's not possible.

      Descartes thoughtlessness was the bane of his existence.

    26. Member turboedy's Avatar
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      04-01-2005 07:41 PM #26
      man, this makes me want one pronto.
      why would the 60' time be slower?

    27. Member rabbitgtibbar's Avatar
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      04-01-2005 07:45 PM #27
      Less wheel spin before you "hook up".
      Descartes thoughtlessness was the bane of his existence.

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      04-01-2005 11:33 PM #28
      just popped in to point something out. In addition to the new software present in the upgrade, it replaces the valve bodies etc. These are what control the hydraulic function of the Haldex and are based off line pressure like in an auto trans. This pressure is what determines how fast, and how firmly the engagement is applied.

      Im no tranny tech yet, but this is my general understanding of it. Thought I would lend some info Ive installed one myself here on a customers car, sorry to say I didnt have to to go along for a test ride, but he seemed very pleased with it


    29. 04-01-2005 11:40 PM #29
      Quote, originally posted by rabbitgtibbar »

      The day I got this installed, I drove to EIP in a raging snow storm, there was already 4 inches down and about an two inches an hour coming down. The R was surefooted driving up, but even more so driving back. It was also much easier to get the ass out when I wanted it to.

      In the dry, it is less easy to tell that it's there, but still...you can tell. Cornering has a bit less push, but just a bit, and launches are made with less "excitement" but, at the same time, more excitement.

      Thanks rabbit thats exactly what I was looking for I keep pushing through corners in snow when I am trying to rally them. I felt by the time haldex was reacting it was too late for the rear to come around. I will seriously consider this upgrade.


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      04-02-2005 12:55 AM #30
      In a normal, everyday driving situation in suburbia, with the original Haldex you could plant your foot and provided the wheels don't spin, little power would be sent to the rear. With the new unit, when you do this it will send more torque to the back immediately, so I would imagine that the Haldex clutches would experience a fair bit more wear if they are constantly being engaged and disengaged when with the original Haldex unit they would have been doing nothing. Correct or incorrect?

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      04-02-2005 02:10 AM #31
      more wear would only be induced on a slipping condition i would think. they are either engaged or disengaged, and with the upgrade its a more immediate engagaement. I dont see how it would wear on them any more than stock setting. It may even wear more in stock while allowing all the slippage. regardless, its not a dry friction surface like a clutch on the flywheel, its all submersed in the Haldex oil. I wouldnt concern yourself with it too much.

    32. Member GR32's Avatar
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      04-02-2005 02:45 AM #32
      I keep on getting more interested in this as well.....always was, just not sure about almost $1G. +....I've already spent enough on stuff for my R. I'll see how you folks like it through the season....maybe next year I'll pick one up. Still need to get a RSB 1st.

      Quote, originally posted by factoryfast »

      I dont do autocross or go sliding around on public roads like Gabe, that memory still gives me goosebumps...

      Hey!!
      ...but that was a closed course.


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      04-02-2005 08:12 AM #33
      Quote, originally posted by BigBlockBug »
      more wear would only be induced on a slipping condition i would think. .

      Nup it responds to throttle position, not wheelspin. Hence it will engage even when the front wheels aren't spinning. Point taken about it being a wet clutch system though.


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      04-02-2005 08:42 AM #34
      Quote, originally posted by Langers »
      Nup it responds to throttle position, not wheelspin. Hence it will engage even when the front wheels aren't spinning. Point taken about it being a wet clutch system though.

      No, this HPP is not PreX so it still requires some wheel spin to activate, just not as much and it is a lot quicker responding while transferring more torque at the same time

      I think this will be more appreciated by the driver that pushes their car but I would have done it even if it was my wife's car. It makes the .:R feel more neutral around the corners and as one other poster said, more like a rear wheel drive car. On hard launches I used to have torque steer and now I don't. This tells me that more torque is being transferred faster to the rear...with the Vortex discount from EIP this unit isn't too bad


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      04-02-2005 02:46 PM #35
      Quote, originally posted by wrh3 »

      No, this HPP is not PreX so it still requires some wheel spin to activate, just not as much and it is a lot quicker responding while transferring more torque at the same time

      I think this will be more appreciated by the driver that pushes their car but I would have done it even if it was my wife's car. It makes the .:R feel more neutral around the corners and as one other poster said, more like a rear wheel drive car. On hard launches I used to have torque steer and now I don't. This tells me that more torque is being transferred faster to the rear...with the Vortex discount from EIP this unit isn't too bad

      Wha? I coulda sworn in this very thread that it was mentioned that the unit monitors throttle position, and will send torque to the rear before any wheelspin is detected. Maybe I just misread it...


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