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    Thread: Secondary Air Injection Incorrect Flow (P0411) fix!

    1. 05-17-2005 04:06 PM #1
      Since I see this question posted all the time, here's my fix. Please note that you may not have the same exact problem, but I'd start here.

      Your car spits the ever popular P0411 error code, here's (probably) why.

      Pull the front bumper/rad support.

      Peek under the intake manifold. (Sorry for the dark picture).

      The 4mm inside diameter vaccuum hose gets pinched between the lower intake manifold and the secondary air pump housing, flattening it over time.

      Remove the combi valve from the cylinder head. It's the hose running from the solenoid valve to the combi valve.

      Replace that hose with some plastic emissions tube from your friendly Autozone.

      Has a smaller outside diameter, and won't get pinched.

      Drink beers.

      Note that if you have this style valve with the vac port out the top, your vac hose routing is probably much better, and won't get pinched. (From Bently).

      For reference (from Bently).

      The pinched hose gets a vac signal when the secondary air injection valve opens. It (should) in turn supply vaccuum to open the combi (shut off valve) to allow the air from the sai pump to flow into the cylinder head. When it gets pinched, the combi valve doesn't open, and the pump tries to blow air through a shut valve. My pump sounded like it had bad bearings because of the added load, but now it's so quiet I almost can't hear it.

      Edit: Fixed picture links. Photobucket blows goats.


      Modified by benny_mech at 11:00 PM 1-28-2008

      For best results, experience reality in moderation.

    2. 05-24-2005 08:13 PM #2
      I have to check this out tommorw at work and print it. I just got the code on my car. Do you need to pull the bumper or can you see it if you jack up the car?

    3. 05-25-2005 04:12 PM #3
      You have to get the combi valve all the way out to get at that hose. You might be able to do that by unbolting the front engine mount and jacking the engine up, but I'm not sure. It's actually a real pain to get at the bolt that holds it on even with the rad support out. It's best done with a ball end allen head driver (5mm I think). Pulling the front bumper/rad support only takes about 8 bolts, but there's a ton of wiring clips too. If you go the 'jack the engine' route, be sure your exhaust doesn't hit the underbody. If it does, you'll have to unbolt the cat -> downpipe connection, or start bending things.


      Modified by benny_mech at 1:14 PM 5-25-2005
      For best results, experience reality in moderation.

    4. 05-26-2005 05:24 PM #4
      really nice write-up.

      i dealt with this SAIS crap a few months ago. first replaced the hose that goes from the pump to the combi valve. the hose was cracked in 2 places, plus the plastic connector for the combi valve was cracked as well. i was able to get to that by unbolting the top of the rad support and tilting it forward slightly.

      after the code came back, i decided to check the vacuum lines and the line that you show as pinched was completely gone. i was able to get to the combi valve pretty easily by unbolting the front lower mount and jacking the engine up.

      just a few other options that work as well.

      SAIS is a big PITA for something that runs for such a short period of time.

      btw, if you need to reset your readiness codes for inspection without having to drive the car around for a few days, i wrote a thread explaining how to do it with a vag-com in about 15 minutes:
      http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1904536
      might be useful to anyone that fixes this and has to go through emissions inspection that scans your obdII port.


    5. 05-26-2005 07:18 PM #5
      Thanks! I wish I had yours a couple weeks ago. My readiness codes weren't setting and my tabs were expired. It turns out they will run the car on the rollers and use the sniffer if your codes aren't set (in Snohomish county, WA). Passed that way with flying colors.
      For best results, experience reality in moderation.

    6. Member TR04gli's Avatar
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      09-10-2005 01:14 AM #6
      OK - I'm bringing this thread back from the dead to add a few more useful bits of information to it after going through practically HELL to get this thing fixed on a 98 VR.

      First of all - There are 3 components to the SAIS -

      1) Secondary Air Inejction Pump - Expensive
      2) Secondary Air Injection Valve aka Combi Valve aka Kombi Valve aka EGR Valve - Approx 200$ from http://www.worldimpex.com
      ( http://www.worldimpex.com/item...39722 )
      3) Solenoid

      I have part numbers for 2 and 3 for a 98 VR I can post Later.

      While you have the car torn apart to the state shown in benny_mech's first pic I woud recommend getting at least 2 feet of vac tubing and replacing all the vac-tubing in this system. In my car there was a U shaped section that ran from the Intake to the Fuel Pressure Regulator that had a T fitting in the middle of this. Off the bottom of the T fitting was a line that went down to the solenoid, and a second line that came off of the solenoid that went to the Kombi Valve.
      Bold for Emphasis On a 98 VR every last INCH of that vac tubing was crumbling in my finger tips. Do yourself a favor and replace ALL of it .

      Secondly - Here's some helpful troubleshooting info...


      This is a picture of the Kombi Valve. The black part connects to a plastic tube that connects to the actual Pump. The Left hand side shown in this picture attaches to a metal piece with an O-ring that inserts into your motor. The vac nipple (bottom right) should have Vac tubing attached to it.

      To determine if you valve is bad remove it from the motor completely. Put your lips around the black section and blow. If air passes through the valve it is bad. Now find a source of vacuum (power brake bleeder, or temporarily steal the line coming off the bottom of that T fitting and have a buddy start the motor briefly). Put vacuum onto that nipple. With vacuum applied you should be able to blow through the Kombi valve with a minimum of difficulty. If you can blow through the valve with NO vac, or you cannot blow through the valve WITH vac then you probably have a bad valve. Prepare to spend 200+ $.

      In my case all the vac tubing was basically destroyed. I opened up the motor, replaced it all, put it back together assuming that would fix it, and boom. Same code. I did not know how to check the valve at that point, so I did not think to check it.

      I then had to open up the motor again, and check the valve. Turns out the valve was OK. replace the 11$ solenoid and boom! I was in business.

      I dont have a good procedure for testing the pump if you do not have a vag-com. With VAG-COM Start the motor to idle. Open Controller, Engine. Open Basic-Settings. Block 160 will test the SAIS. Have a buddy stand by the front of the car. He/She shold be able to hear the SAIS Pump turn on for a short time and pump air. If what you hear sounds like a shop-vac your valve is staying closed. This could be because of a bad solenoid or a bad valve. This should be audible inside the car at idle (even with a loud exhaust). . I dont know what the other conditions will sound like.... this was the only condition my car experienced.


      Edit: Last but not least - if you're dead-set on checking the 11$ solenoid before replacing it... let the car get cold. By the time you get it this far taken apart it should be more than sufficiently cold. Put the vac tubing that goes from the T fitting to solenoid in the right place. Attach a length of vac tubing to the solenoid on the nipple that should lead to the combi valve. Hold your thumb over the piece of vac tubing that should go to the Kombi valve and have a buddy start the car briefly (15-20 seconds). You should be able to feel vac on your thumb. If you cannot, disconnect the other piece of vac tubing and check for vac on the tubing coming from the T fitting. If there is vac on the T fitting, but none on the solenoid on cold start then your solenoid is malfunctioning.


      Modified by Xanthazar at 10:21 PM 9-9-2005


    7. 09-10-2005 05:17 PM #7
      Excellent info. I'm fighting this right now myself. I've made several posts trying to figure it out. I took your info about using vagcom after having pulled my front end apart and replacing the tubing from the combi to solenoid and still was getting the code showing up and it indeeds sounds like a shop vac ... so I'm going to replace the combi and solenoid next.. figure might as well replace both while I'm in there. I see the link for the combi, if anyone can get the part # for the solenoid that'd be sweet

    8. Member TR04gli's Avatar
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      09-12-2005 10:48 AM #8
      Quote, originally posted by gotissues68 »
      Excellent info. I'm fighting this right now myself. I've made several posts trying to figure it out. I took your info about using vagcom after having pulled my front end apart and replacing the tubing from the combi to solenoid and still was getting the code showing up and it indeeds sounds like a shop vac ... so I'm going to replace the combi and solenoid next.. figure might as well replace both while I'm in there. I see the link for the combi, if anyone can get the part # for the solenoid that'd be sweet

      Before you blow 200$ on the combi valve try the test of blowing thru it. If you can - with no vac to it - replace it. If you can't then apply vac to it. If you still cant blow thru it at that point - replace it. Otherwise save the cash and just replace the 11$ solenoid. I'll post a p/n tonight when I get back to my home comptuer where I've got it saved.


    9. Member Soren's Avatar
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      09-12-2005 01:42 PM #9
      Just a tip guys, you can test every component without removing anything.

      To do the 'blow' test on the combi, remove the breather hose from the airbox, cup your hands around it, and blow!

      As an alternative to blowing, you can just listen through it with the engine running. Before SAIS kicks in, you wont hear anything through it. When it kicks on, if valve opens, you should hear lots of growling internal engine noises as well as feel the pump drawing air in.

      Here is my basic procedure:
      1. Ensure SAIS pump is coming on, if so move to #2, if not, check relays, fuses, then check fro voltage to pump. If all are good, it's probably pump. Prepare to be super bummed.

      2. Test solenoid by replacing hose to combi with a length of hose so you can feel for vacuum with your finger when SAIS runs. If you feel vaccum, solenoid is good. If not, replace solenoid ($8-$15). If this doesn't work, move to step 3.

      3. Do the blow test described way above. If nothing happens, you may have bad vac lines or combi. Replace all vac lines, but most importantly the one running to combi. If that doesn't work, you have a bad combi. Prepare to be slightly less bummed than if you had to replace the pump.


      Final tip:
      You don't need to take off the front end!
      Just remove the plastic cover on top of the grille, unbolt the top bolt from front engine mount, jack engine up a few inches with block of wood to spread pressure. Remove dipstick tube for a little extra room. Use 5mm(?) ball end hex driver to remove combi bolt and yank that bastard out.





      Modified by Soren at 2:18 PM 9-12-2005


    10. 09-12-2005 02:05 PM #10
      Awesome, glad to know I can test it without pulling anything apart again Just so I'm clear on this. If I blow with the motor off into the airbox hose towards the combi I should NOT be able to blow into it correct?

      [edit]
      I think this should go into the DIY or be sticky'd since its a very common problem on the VR's and gets asked all the time and this is the most comprehensive info I think I've seen to date on it (including pics and everything)


      Modified by gotissues68 at 7:07 PM 9-12-2005


    11. Member Vdubsolo's Avatar
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      09-12-2005 02:18 PM #11
      I agree...Its seem if you have a VR with over 50,000 miles you might have a good chance that some sort of vacume tubbing has dryd out especially the one under the intake manifold...This is a excellent write up too Its forsure a PITA, but for like 1-3bucks worth of vac hose n few hours In the garage....problem fixed

    12. Member Soren's Avatar
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      09-12-2005 02:20 PM #12
      I've gained so much knowledge through this forum over the 5 years I've been a member.. It feels really good every time I can contribute/give back to the community.

    13. 09-12-2005 10:36 PM #13
      Just wanted to update everyone who has posted so far and for those who might need this thread later.

      Following Soren's advice I went ahead and attempted to blow into the breather hose connecting the airbox to combi with the car off (so no vac) and wasn't able to blow so I know the valve ic closed. I then took a piece of tube and connected it to where the solenoid => combi connection normally goes. After verifying vacuum at the t fitting I then tested for vacuum on that section of hose and didn't feel anything perceptable. I then normalized everything and put it back the way its supposed to be (so assuming vacuum from the solenoid to combi) and attempted to blow through when the SAI pump kicked in and was unable to. So at this point I'm going to replace the solenoid first since I have no perceptable vac going from solenoid to combi.

      Hopefully this works out! I'm been letting this code lay around for too long (over a year).. now I feel like I have a fighting chance For those who don't have a Vag Com, if you can fork over the money I highly recommend it, the directions here to cause the SAI pump to turn on even when the engine is warmed up are perfect and it makes trying to diagnose things go much faster


    14. Member Soren's Avatar
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      09-12-2005 11:01 PM #14
      Good work! That sounds like it's the solenoid. Let us know how it goes...

      If it's not, you'll need to get that vac line replaced. It is a pain to get at, but nothing too horrible...


      Here is another test you can try:
      -Start engine, disconnect breather hose to get an idea of how it sounds when valve is closed.
      -Shut off engine.
      -Disconnect solenoid vac hose from tee fitting.
      -Disconnect combi vac hose from solenoid.
      -Connect combi vac hose to tee fitting.
      -Start engine.
      -This should keep the combi open constantly, so give the breather hose a listen. If the valve is open as it should be, you should hear lots of noise through it. If not, then the vac line is probably the culprit (or the combi). At this stage you'll need to remove that combi to replace the vac line, the combi, or both.


    15. 09-13-2005 09:35 PM #15
      Update!

      I went and purchased the solenoid from the dealer today 8.25 woo-woo came home and dropped it in. I now have very noticeable vac going out towards the combi ... I normalized everything again and went ahead and ran vagcom to force the SAI system to test. It passed the first run, the second run passed and then on the 3rd run through failed.

      I verified hoses and then swapped then around just to ensure I didn't do anything dumb and came up with the same results (failure).

      So ... I zero'd out the ECU once again and forced the test with Vagcom and checked the breather hose coming off the airbox, could blow through it when the pump came on with known good vac.

      I already have replaced the hose between the solenoid and combi. So now it looks like its combi replacement time (boo!)

      Just so that its noted here.

      Part #'s for all 3 components of the SAI system.

      Solenoid 191 906 283 A

      There was a VIN split on both the pump and combi so I'm providing all numbers, check with your dealer when you go to purchase.

      Combi part #'s
      021 131 101 <= earlier 95
      021 131 101 A <= late 95 and above per the dealer. You can tell if this is the right part number if you have a "T" in the last eight numbers/letters of your VIN

      SAI Pump #'s
      078 906 601 E
      021 959 253 B
      021 959 253

      Hope this helps! And I'll be sure to post back the results once I get the combi done!


      Modified by gotissues68 at 3:52 AM 9-19-2005


    16. Member 1VR62NV's Avatar
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      09-14-2005 12:31 AM #16
      should have jus got rid of the SAI and plugged it
      Eurotuner 02/10

      Quote Originally Posted by Golfatron3 View Post
      sold to a lucky Civic owner for a very good price

    17. Senior Member jhayesvw's Avatar
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      09-14-2005 12:56 AM #17
      Quote, originally posted by 1VR62NV »
      should have jus got rid of the SAI and plugged it

      its illegal to get rid of the sai.

      also, many of us have to pass a scantool test for emissions. without the pump, you will definately fail.


    18. Member TR04gli's Avatar
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      09-14-2005 10:00 AM #18
      Quote, originally posted by jhayesvw »

      its illegal to get rid of the sai.

      also, many of us have to pass a scantool test for emissions. without the pump, you will definately fail.

      True

      Thats why I had to fix it - Scantool Emmissions.

      Personally, based on what this system does I feel it is of dubious value anyway. <this is my opinion, feel free to disagree, but realize i dont really care what you think>

      If I had been able to find any real info about fooling the sensors with a resistor filled black-box I would have gladly done that instead of fix the damned thing. I'm sure it will only break again in the future and next time the car will be old enough that regardless of OBD2 scan-tool tests it will be a cold-day in hell before I'm spending 500+ $ fixing a system that runs for 30 seconds a day. Damned hippies.


    19. 09-14-2005 11:06 AM #19
      I agree in that I think the expense associated with this particular system which is prone to failure makes it very hard to not just ignore it or search for inventive ways to disable it. I'm all for helping emissions but not at nearly a 1k in parts costs alone. I can only imagine what it would cost if I went to the dealer or a shop and had them try and do this In the same breath though I'm also taking this as an opportunity to learn more about the workings of my car

    20. 09-14-2005 12:25 PM #20
      Not just the vacuum tubing but the air hoses are also problematic. 2 of the 3 air hoses on my car were shot, allowing water to get into the SAI blower and fry the motor. Also my combi valve was bad, so it was blowing water into the air intake and exhaust. My cat is shot (can't say this is what caused it, but can't say it didn't) but MAF still appears OK. I bought a used setup off a guy, the air hoses and combi valve were also shot. The blower is good but the fittings don't match my old one.

      Took the easy way out and plugged the system. I was tempted to put a test pipe in place of the cat but decided against it--$255 for emissions control that works all the time is one thing, $1,000 for SAI is crazy.

      Now I get to take the dash apart & remove the bulb for the MIL. (No emissions testing in my area. )


    21. Member 1VR62NV's Avatar
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      09-14-2005 05:34 PM #21
      Quote, originally posted by jhayesvw »

      also, many of us have to pass a scantool test for emissions. without the pump, you will definately fail.

      in canada we dont have a scantool test but you can run resistors in line with the wires for the SAI and the engine will not bring up a CEL

      this was a big help

      Quote, originally posted by all-starr-me »
      My Vr is in a 95 car, even though its a 98 engine, I don't have to get it scanned for inspection since the car is OBD 1. Any way here is what I could find on what resisters to use for it, I'm not sure who originally posted it, sorry.

      I may have to put some kind of load (23 ohms, 6 watts (big resistor)) on the wire to keep from getting a permanent CEL.
      The ECU switches the grounds for the Secondary Air Intake Valve (N112) and the Secondary Air Injection Pump Relay (J299). The ECU also looks for current flow on those circuits and will throw a CEL if they aren't there.
      I removed the switched contacts from the relay that drives the Secondary Air Pump Motor but left the coil part of the relay connected. It is relay 100 in the relay box under the hood.
      I wanted to replace the relay and the vacuum switch with resistors to clean it up but the resistor to replace the vacuum switch would have to be about 5 Watts (BIG).
      A couple of 1 watt resistors (60 ohms for the relay, 30 ohms for the valve) and put them in a convoluted tube

      Here is the final version of the Secondary Air Recirc system kluge. I used a 28 ohm 3 watt resistor for the Secondary Air Intake Valve (SAIV) and a 58 ohm 3 watt resistor for the Secondary Air Pump Relay.
      1. Use the wire to the power side of the Secondary Air Pump Relay coil and connect it to one end of both resistors.
      2. Connect the other end of the 58-ohm resistor to the wire from the ECU side of the Secondary Air Pump Relay coil.
      3. Connect the other end of the 28-ohm resistor to the wire that goes from the SAIV to the ECU.
      After the pic I slid the larger convoluted tube over it and taped it up.

      Eurotuner 02/10

      Quote Originally Posted by Golfatron3 View Post
      sold to a lucky Civic owner for a very good price

    22. 09-16-2005 12:09 PM #22
      Combi purchased... tonight is N hour... I'm going to come away with the big W if you all feel what I'm saying here.. it'll be the first time in 29 months that I've been CEL free *hopefully*

    23. Member Soren's Avatar
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      09-16-2005 12:36 PM #23
      good luck!!!

    24. 09-17-2005 08:07 PM #24
      I am CEL free! Thanks to the info provided by Soren and Xan. I started installing the combi last night and got stuck on the nut that holds the dipstick in =\ got that resolved today and everything went back in and its all good now Thanks again to everyone who's posted helpful info on how clear this bish up

    25. 09-26-2005 12:23 PM #25
      dealership was gonna charge me $800+ to do this...im not as skilled to perform this process, maybe down the road a bit...thanks for the post tho

    26. Member Soren's Avatar
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      09-26-2005 01:47 PM #26
      It's not really very hard!

      You just need to get the motivation to do it. Or a case of beer and a mechanically inclined friend. Or give a friend $100 to do it. Beats wasting your paycheck at a scummy dealership...


    27. Member VR6 MD's Avatar
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      09-27-2005 04:17 PM #27
      Is there any gain from the removal of the SAI? For some reason Schimmel removed it when he did my motor. If there is n; parasitic loss or anything I'm gonna throw it back on.


      Modified by VR6 MD at 6:37 PM 9-27-2005

    28. 10-01-2005 04:11 PM #28
      What is the SAI system for? I'm not a VR guy, but my father in law is looking at a 97 passat with a VR^ in it and when we test drove it it had a engine code light on. so we told them that we wanted them to check it out before we thought about buying and they came back and told us that the code was a P0411. I'm not sure if I want to take the chance on buying it hoping that it is just a bad hose.

      Thanks
      Justind


    29. 10-01-2005 09:18 PM #29
      The SAI is an emissions system. It pumps warm air into your exhaust until the car is fully warmed up, it does this to reduce emissions. If you're buying from a dealership or used car place, make them fix it. If its private party, I'd ask them if they'd lower the price by 1k to cover possible expenses if you want to attempt to repair it yourself or have a shop do it.

      Its not going to hurt the car to throw the code or have a problem with SAI, unless your state does scan tool emissions testing.


    30. 10-11-2005 11:07 PM #30

      JUST CURIOUS,

      HAS ANYONE EVER TRIED TO MAKE A DEALER FIX THIS UNDER A POWERTRAIN WARRANTY?

      I HAVE A P0411 & P1297 CEL on my 2000 VW Jetta 1.8T.

      Waddaya think ???????


    31. 10-14-2005 11:46 AM #31
      very good information. too bad i don't have the time to do this. just got the code the other day, and found the pump is working and it's prob. the hose. getting some other stuff done at KMDtuning so i'm gonna let them fix it.

    32. 11-21-2005 09:20 PM #32
      Xanthazar, Soren,

      Thanks for the info, its extremely helpful.

      Just to be clear on the instructions, I blew through the breather hose from the airbox and Air passed freely, I cannot blow through combi valve unless its under vacuum.

      Does this mean the pump is bad? I hear the pump activate when idling and using vag-com to test it.



      Modified by JTestman at 6:22 AM 11-22-2005


    33. Member Surf Green's Avatar
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      12-09-2005 11:41 AM #33
      A FYI about bad Combi Valves before you spend $$ on them.

      My Combi Valve was stuck shut, giving me the code (Everything else checked fine, and I replaced the vac hoses anyway)

      I removed the valve, filled it with Carb cleaner (from the output side, which was full of black guuk). Let it sit for a few minutes. Dumped, and repeat a few times.

      I was able to hear the valve open/close with my handy "Mouth Vac" on the vaccume hose.

      Reinstalled, and it's been working fine for the past 2 years. At the very least... if it gunks up again, I can fix it long enough to work if I get another Emissions test request.

      Bro, do you even lift? When you only have 90 horsepower, you don't ever lift.
      2002 Golf Wagon TDI - 1996 GTI VR6 - YouTube Track Videos - flickr

    34. 12-18-2005 04:50 PM #34
      I have the same code on my 2001 VR6! Is this problem the same for MK4 model cars as MK3! also my car is not running right! It runs like crap when cold! The car idles fine but when I give it gas it sometimes hesitates!

    35. Member Ricky Bobby's Avatar
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      12-31-2005 04:54 PM #35
      Quote, originally posted by 1993jetta GL »
      also my car is not running right! It runs like crap when cold! The car idles fine but when I give it gas it sometimes hesitates!


      i have the same problem, getting my car VAG'ed next week and i'm guessing its a P0441 or some other problem..... figures i have inspection in january too

      Quote Originally Posted by Senor Pelligro
      It's a car for a fashion forward, style conscious guy that's always looking for the season's hottest accessory. A guy that watches Project Runway, reads TMZ, and drinks Cosmos.

      It's simply fabulous, sweetie.

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