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    Thread: Secondary Air Injection Incorrect Flow (P0411) fix!

    1. 01-02-2006 06:59 PM #36
      Quote, originally posted by 1993jetta GL »
      I have the same code on my 2001 VR6! Is this problem the same for MK4 model cars as MK3! also my car is not running right! It runs like crap when cold! The car idles fine but when I give it gas it sometimes hesitates!
      yeah whats up with the 2001 vr6s is this a common problem for them or did vw reroute the hose for hte mk4s. I just helped my friend do his on his 97 vr and it was a pita dont want to do this on my car. any idea if this probllem still persists on 01's

    2. Member veedub8422's Avatar
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      03-08-2006 10:44 PM #37
      thanks for a great thread. very very helpful. i will try to fix my p0411 problem this weekend. hopefully all goes well and i'll end up with a car that passes emmissions. then i'll get me some alaskan amber too!

    3. Member Soren's Avatar
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      03-09-2006 07:26 PM #38
      bump for all the guys with recent SAI problems...
      sai system -
      this thread -

    4. Member VR6speed's Avatar
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      03-09-2006 09:53 PM #39
      has anyone ever noticed what a bad combi valve on a S/C or Turbo car feels like???

      Does it cause a hesitation under vaccuum and clean up while in boost??

      I am trying to narrow down where this hesitation is coming from, and this thread just made me think about the combi valve and the solenoid.


    5. Member veedub8422's Avatar
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      03-10-2006 04:58 PM #40
      what size emissionis tubing do you need to replace the vacuum lines?is there only one size/diameter?

    6. Member Soren's Avatar
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      03-10-2006 05:02 PM #41
      the stuff I got at autozone was marked 3/16" fuel/emissions
      It's a little beefier than the stock hose but fits and routes fine through the same place the original hose went.

    7. Member AutoX-FIB's Avatar
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      03-10-2006 08:46 PM #42
      Soren,

      When you jack the motor up as you described, are you able to reach the vac hoses as well? I'm gearing up to do this in the next few weeks and I want to know what is the best approach.

      BTW, great post, thanks to all involved!


    8. Member Soren's Avatar
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      03-11-2006 12:27 AM #43
      Well, once you remove the combi valve, yes... otherwise it's impossible to get to the friggin thing...

      see, combi out, engine up, front end still on:


    9. Member veedub8422's Avatar
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      03-11-2006 12:36 AM #44
      is it at all possible to get to the vac line/combi without jacking up the engine and unbolting the front mount if you go underneath the car? i'm not a big fan, nor fully confident, in using a jack to hold up an engine.

    10. Member Soren's Avatar
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      03-11-2006 01:04 AM #45
      nope, believe me i tried!! i didn't want to do it either, but it's cool, just put something between the jack (i use a thick softcover book to spread weight) and the end of the transmission housing where it meets the block. It's very solid and can support the weight, and there's no chance of denting it and messing up oil feed like with the oil pan. Also, you don't have to jack it up extremely far. When you drop it back down, you may have to shake the engine around a bit to get the bolt to thread in, sometimes the holes don't quite line up perfectly.

      Also, when you are getting the bolt for the combi out, there's one for the intake manifold right next to it, so if the combi doesn't come out you probably got the wrong one like i did, hehe..


    11. Member Soren's Avatar
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      03-11-2006 01:25 AM #46
      here is a visual of why you can't get to it from below...
      this was taken when I replaced the crack pipe and tstat housing, so they are gone and the SAI pump is loosened, otherwise there is of course nowhere near this much clearance.


    12. Member veedub8422's Avatar
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      03-11-2006 01:58 PM #47
      lol i had to replace that stoopid plastic coolant pipe before a couple months after i got my car. my first experience with a vr6 was not a pleasant one, but i understand by what you mean about no room to work. today i finally get to give all this a try. off to buy some emissions tube right now. thanks for all your help soren.

    13. Member veedub8422's Avatar
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      03-11-2006 05:33 PM #48
      so i tried to check out the relay/fuse first to start out easy (no such thing though, right? ) wtf is the 30a fuse? is it that metal jumper on the relay housing?
      anyone have a pic of the 111 relay housing that shows where the fuse is? i couldn't find it. thinking maybe mine is missing.


      Modified by veedub8422 at 3:01 AM 3-14-2006

    14. Member veedub8422's Avatar
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      03-15-2006 09:39 PM #49
      bump

    15. 03-15-2006 11:55 PM #50
      bump for SAI problems, everyone has delt with this stupid system. I finally fixed my ish after 2 years, put a new combi and lines in, fingers crossed that it's finally fixed

    16. Member veedub8422's Avatar
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      03-18-2006 05:17 PM #51
      anyone got anymore good pics of the combi, solenoid, hose routing, or how to take everything apart? i'm having a hell of a time...

    17. 03-19-2006 09:10 PM #52
      Quote, originally posted by veedub8422 »
      wtf is the 30a fuse? is it that metal jumper on the relay housing?
      anyone have a pic of the 111 relay housing that shows where the fuse is? i couldn't find it. thinking maybe mine is missing.
      Modified by veedub8422 at 3:01 AM 3-14-2006


      Yes, the metal "jumper" is the fuse. Also, it's a 50a, not 30a like the Bentley says. Take the fuse off, clean it up real good to see it's stamped with '50A'. Seems lots of ppl replaced with a 30A several times only to blow them.

      There are two fusible links in that location. One is below the coolant overflow bottle on the strut tower- That one is next to two regular fuses. The large relay these are on is for the radiator fans.
      You're looking for the other fusible link- and the relay '111' is just above that. Check your fusible linke, could be bad.
      BTW- that relay is like thirty bucks from the dealer.


      EDIT: I replaced the relay, didn't fix the issue... replaced the solenoid and my SAI code is gone!!! The solenoid was only eight bucks (dealer) and they had four in stock. MUCH better than replacing the ~$400 pump or $200 combi valve. Now I can get an inspection.


      Isaac


      Modified by z33k at 8:54 AM 3-22-2006


    18. Member veedub8422's Avatar
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      03-19-2006 10:26 PM #53
      i wasn't sure if that jumper was the fuse or not. knew where it was, but wasn't sure. know wbout the fuses but the strut too but thiught they were part of a different circuit. thx for the help. i think my problem is the solenoid.

    19. 03-26-2006 01:56 PM #54
      on my 98 i just did the combi, vac lines and solinoid, and im still getting the code, the pump is running, what is going on here??

    20. 03-26-2006 04:14 PM #55
      it actually took my code to clear after 3days, the system had to recognize that the combi was working. Did you make sure the combi held vacuum before you put it in? also check the vacuum line that runs to the combi, it could be pinched, I actually squeezed mine past the bottom of the manifold, theres more room in the back.

    21. Member veedub8422's Avatar
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      03-30-2006 06:12 PM #56
      i replaced my kombi, all vac lines, and the solenoid. pass emissions just fine. i had to replace the kombi cause there was all kinds of
      $#!% in it. apparently the neuspeed foam breather filter decided to deteriorate without telling me it was gonna do so... in the end, lesson learned. foam filters = crap and check THAT breather filter too when i check my air filter. oh well. my bad. bump for everyone else with this stoopid code.

    22. Member calculatinginfinity's Avatar
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      04-11-2006 08:48 AM #57
      http://img.photobucket.com/alb...1.jpg

      what page/or section is this in the bentley. i looked forever and found nothing.


    23. 04-11-2006 10:29 AM #58
      That's going to be in the Exhaust/Emissions chapter. Alternatively you can search the index for 'Secondary Air' I think...

    24. Member lazyace's Avatar
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      04-16-2006 05:04 AM #59
      Hi all,

      I just worked on my 95 Jetta GLX VR6 SAIS today. I got the following code through Vag-Com:

      00758 - Secondary Air Injection System (AIR)
      31-00 - Open or Short to Ground

      I know from the fault there is an open or short in the electrical system but I am going to do some much needed maintenance along with the electrical troubleshooting. The vacuum tubes, I can already tell, are in dire need of replacement.

      When I removed the SAIS intake hose (note 1) from air box and listened, during a cold start, I could hear noises but none that distinct. I could feel, ever so slightly, air moving in and out almost simultaneously. Also I checked for vacuum off the tee next to fuel regulator going to the SAIS. There was vacuum present.

      To work on the SAIS, the easiest way, remove front motor mount lower bolt and jack up the front of engine on the bell housing as described earlier in thread. Be careful and watch out for the areas above the exhaust between the firewall. Also be mindful of the clearance between the intake hose (from the air box to the throttle body) and the firewall. You may have to remove or loosen intake hose from air box and from throttle body. Be sure to maintain cleanliness during this process when dealing with throttle body and MAF. Use rags to cover any openings. BTW I used my Haynes’s manual between the jack and the bell housing Lesson: get a Bentley!!

      Here is what I did next:

      1. Replaced all vacuum tubing with 4mm (5/32in.)

      2. Ran output tests for SAIS components and the air pump (V101) did not come on and did not hear relay J299 click. Solenoid (N112) actuated (clicked repeatedly).

      3. Pulled off the 2 pin connector to the air pump (V101).

      4. Removed pressure hose from pump to combi-valve and inspected for cracks. Left removed for now.

      (Caution) - Observe ground terminal location. I believe it was the top connector. Check for black wire on connector.

      5. Ran 12vdc from battery to blower and checked for operation. It worked!! Woo hoo!! Mmm.. the sweet sound of me saving money!!

      6. Inspected inline fuse for blower underneath relay 111. Actually, I "inspected" the lack of a fuse. It had corroded away completely!! Cleaned and shorted fuse contacts (for temporary testing purposes only). Will replace with 50 amp fuse later.

      7. Reconnected ALL hoses accordingly, leaving SAIS intake hose (note 1) disconnected from air box.

      8. Lowered engine back down. Ensured lower mount boot was seated properly. And re-torque front engine mount lower bolt to 41 ft lb.

      9. Started engine and listed for change in sound from SAIS intake hose.

      10. Result – Worked like a champ!

      11. Reconnected SAIS intake hose (note 1) to air box.

      12. Cleared fault codes using Vag-Com. Drove around for a while, then rescanned faults.

      Worked!!

      13. Drove to the bar for some much deserved beers!!


      If you have any questions, please ask.


      Note 1 – SAIS intake hose from air box to the air pump (V101).

      Also for reference from Bentley (buy one if you don’t have one)!!:

      The SAIS blows air behind the exhaust valve for 65 seconds during a cold start (+15 C ... +35 C engine coolant temperature).

      Activation is initiated by the Motronic Engine Control Module (ECM) -J220- via the First or Third Speed Coolant Fan Control Cut-Off relay -J229- to Secondary Air Injection solenoid valve -N112- and Combi-valve. After each subsequent engine start (up to max. 85 C engine temperature) the Secondary Air Injection system will (after a 20 second delay) switch in for 5 seconds during idle.

      ****************************************
      ****************************************
      ****************************************


      Edit: here is where the fuse is located and the type of fuse I used.






      If you can't find an oem strip type fuse you can modify a large blade type fuse like so:








      The oem strip style fuse looks like this:










      ****************************************
      ****************************************
      ****************************************

      Some good info to help clear some things up :

      Quote, originally posted by golfgringo »
      OK
      I have finally fixed this problem after about 20 hours over 2 1/2 weeks!
      The failed components were:
      * Kombi valve
      * vac line to Kombi valve
      * the solenoid [N112]
      * 50amp fusible link
      * voltage preventing corrosion on the 111 relay and it's fusible link
      Yeah that's everything but the pump itself!!!!!!!!!

      Because there were some things that were not clear to me from the previous posts, let me attempt to add some more detail.

      Yes everything can be done by unbolting the front motor mount and jacking the engine.

      Start here
      Test pump
      Remove the harness connector to pump. [You will grow to hate those 'wire release' connectors!] Jumper the terminals on the pump connector directly to the battery. Pay attention to the pos and neg as they are clearly marked on the pump. No need to strain to hear it run, it sounds like a hair dryer at full blast!
      If it runs be glad and continue on, if not start looking for one.

      Diag sequence w/ VAG-Com:

      Don't remove mount or lift engine.
      W/ engine off, select engine scan and then output tests. Toggle past injectors and evap control.

      Select solenoid [N112]
      you should be able to feel it click when you hold it in your hand. Double check its function by removing the vac line from the T to the solenoid and try to blow thru it. You should be able to blow freely in a pulsing sequence as the VAG activates the valve.
      No blow thru or click - bad valve. Replace

      Select relay [111]
      you should hear it click or feel it w/ your hand.
      no click, remove and clean posts [and receptacle]
      still no click - relay bad. replace
      you should also hear the air pump run in pulses as the relay clicks.
      no pump - check 50 amp fuse in front of 113 relay. replace if bad and definitely SHINE UP ALL CONNECTIONS W/ EMERY CLOTH BEFORE RECONNECTING.
      [I used the modded Buss fuse trick that lazyace posts instead of going to the dealer]

      If pump doesn't run now and did run when performing test then the wiring btween the relay and pump is bad or the current is not flowing thru the fusible link. Test w/ ohmeter for continuity.

      If all tests are positive thus far, then start the car for the first time now. You cannot test the kombi valve remotely, so that is the point of this trial. Pull the hose from the front of the airbox, start the car and listen.
      The kombi valve sounds like the oil fill cap is off - the hollow pulsing of air moving thru the valves. It is plenty loud to hear! You can hear it even over [under actually] the hair dryer sound of the pump.

      Can't hear the Kombi? Well, you have remove it test it properly.
      Now the fun begins - remove the mount and jack up the engine.

      Some notes of caution:
      1. Make sure that you are using the correct size hex wrench, they are tight and you only get one chance. Those holding the pump are 5 mm and those into the block are 6mm [I think]. You will need the wobble style [ball end] to remove the actual kombi valve bolt. If you strip it by trying it w/ a straight tool, like I did all is not lost. You can remove the valve from the tube itself by the two other bolts. Like everything else about this job, it is a HUGE pain in the a$$ but can be done.

      2. Those 'flexible' ends on the air hose are not flexible. DO NOT TWIST THEM, squeeze the 'release ring' [another genius piece of engineering] and pull them STRAIGHT out. Hot melt glue and electricians tape work well to repair them when they crack.

      3. The pump must come out before the Kombi can be accessed and removed. Try to leave the pump 'out of the way' next to the rad instead of trying to snake it out, which is also a PITA!

      OK now you can test the valve.
      Now logic suggests that a vacuum actuated valve should hold vacuum, but not the case here - at least for me. Applying vacuum to the nipple will open the valve and allow for air to flow thru. A hand pump [MityVac] doesn't seem to be the true test here. It would not work w/ the hand pump. It did work, however, when I attached the vacuum hose directly from the T [not the solenoid]. The continuous vacuum from the running engine keeps the valve open and lets you blow thru it w/ your mouth, confirming its operation.
      If no flow under vacuum - bad valve replace.
      If it flows, reassemble everything and you have fixed your SAI problem.


      Diag Sequence without VAG-com

      Test pump as above

      Test Relay [111]

      With your jumper wires, clip to the battery and to the posts on the relay - 85 is negative and 86 is positive. With power to the relay, you should hear it click. Confirm function by using volt meter to send ohms across 30 and 87. If continuity is confirmed, relay is good.

      Test fuse [under relay]
      A visual inspection is not sufficient here. Disassemble it and clean all contact points. Test continuity w/ ohmeter when reassembled.

      Testing solenoid
      You should be able to jumper this as well from the battery to confirm blow thru, but I could not readily identify pos and neg so I shyed away from trying.
      The engine, however, will send the correct voltage upon cold start, so merely starting the car and blowing thru [no need to suck fumes into your mouth!] should confirm its function. Still not sure, spend the $10 at the dealership and replace it.

      Test Kombi valve
      Try sound test above. Then remove and test w/ engine vacuum [as above] if needed.

      Optional but highly recommended:
      Throughout the above procedures you will, no doubt, need some stress relief. Feel free to:
      *Stop and slam some beers.
      *Find a heavy bag and go nuts
      *chase down your wife/ girlfriend

      Consider yourself fully intiated and bonded w/ your dub after you have licked this.



      Last edited by lazyace; 03-04-2014 at 09:05 PM. Reason: Update Links

    25. 04-20-2006 04:38 PM #60
      ah i just got this code so it looks like i will be refering back to this page frequently

    26. 04-26-2006 08:53 AM #61
      ok so when i bought my car there was no sai installed.
      the previous owner was a mechanic and purposely took it and the cat off to get past some smog control.
      i live in florida, so no emissions, but does this affect my engine other than having a constant CEL?
      i hear people say it does and it doesnt.
      anybody with any knowledge or experience with this please respond.

    27. 04-26-2006 12:49 PM #62
      Is there a way to get the constant CEL reprogrammed so it will be off?

    28. Member lazyace's Avatar
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      04-26-2006 08:31 PM #63
      The Secondary Air Injection system blows in air behind the exhaust valve for 65 seconds during the cold start (+15 C ... +35 C engine coolant temperature). This produces an Oxygen rich exhaust gas, causes afterburning and reduces the heat-up time for the three-way catalyst. (catalytic converter)

    29. 04-27-2006 12:01 AM #64
      so basically i dont need it unless i want to pass emissions or protect the environment?

    30. Member lazyace's Avatar
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      04-27-2006 01:23 AM #65
      In short form.... yes. You would be safe, I believe, to run without it. You will most definitely produce greater emissions although. I would understand though; putting the system back on costs a decent amount of money.


      As for the other Q: I don't think you will get an answer on how to "reprogram" the CEL even if there is a way. That could be bad if people used it to sell "working" cars. I'm not implying you but others who read this post.


    31. 04-27-2006 02:19 AM #66
      i actualy heard there was a way to trick it electronically by faking the signal that goes to the ECU it uses to detect SAI problems but i have not experimented with that............ it has to be possible however.

    32. 04-27-2006 11:50 AM #67
      ok, so I am in Tampa , Fl and we do not have emissions testing. I have been puting together my VR6 and found that my SAI hole on the Head is plugged. I have the SAI which I am going to check it to see if it all works right and if it does I was thinking of hooking it back up cause it will drive me crazy to have the CEL on constantly. What is the best way to unplug it? My motor is sitting on an engine stand about 95% rebuilt, do I have to take it apart to unplug it?




      Sorry if the pics are big...Still trying to learn this HTML Stuff.
      Thanks for any and all help you can give me...

    33. 04-27-2006 04:15 PM #68
      alright earlier in the week the code went away. the nite before i got the code i slammed a pot hole pretty bad. could it be that the vacuum hose just got temporarily pinched? well thats my theory

    34. 04-28-2006 08:41 AM #69
      i've heard of that. i've seen screw in plug bolts for the sai before for sale at some tuning shops online. those looked like actual bolts u could take out with little trouble. yours looks a lot like the kind u might have to drill out, but it's hard to tell from the pic. i'm not gonna pretend to be a mechanic, but it looks like u might have to drill it and/or take it back apart to get that puppy out.
      nice lookin engine tho


      i hear ya on the CEL mine drives me crazy cause i never know for sure if something else besides the sai is giving it codes unless i hook it up to a scanner


      Modified by captain coordination at 8:42 AM 4-28-2006


    35. 04-28-2006 08:08 PM #70
      Thanks Capt, I spoke with a buddy of mine and he said it is the kind that I will have to screw out. He said it shouldn't be too bad. Now I have to make sure that the SAI is actually working right before I go through all of that. Thanks for the help and the compliment

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