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    Thread: The H2Sport spindles are available.........

    1. 05-18-2005 09:43 PM #1
      Has anybody purchased them? If so, what do you think? Is the handling noticably better or is just satisfying to the technoweenie in your head that you have proper front suspension geometry? Please be honest, the technoweenie in my head is wanting to justify these things .

      All kidding aside, I would like to get some input from others about these items.

      Thank You,
      Tom


    2. 05-18-2005 10:07 PM #2
      in all honesty you would have to take a spindeled car to thet rack and have recordings of your performance before and after

    3. 05-18-2005 11:04 PM #3
      how about u call em up

    4. Member Drehkraft's Avatar
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      05-19-2005 09:28 AM #4
      Quote, originally posted by 7thGear »
      in all honesty you would have to take a spindeled car to thet rack and have recordings of your performance before and after

      Actually even on the street there is a huge differance in a lowered car. If you can't feel the differeance either you drive like and old man or you are not perceptive enough.

      Cheap, fast, reliable - Pick your two!

    5. 05-19-2005 09:31 AM #5
      Quote, originally posted by 7thGear »
      in all honesty you would have to take a spindeled car to thet rack and have recordings of your performance before and after

      I was looking for responses from people who have already purchased and installed them on their cars. I was also looking for more of a seat-of-the-pants impression, like how do they affect at-limit understeer, turn-in, bump steer, steering feedback, etc. And, I beieve I conveyed that in my post. I did a search and did not find the answers I was looking for, I believe that my questions are valid, and this post could add value to this forum for others who are interested in this product. There is no need to be rude with the "screwy" emoticon. Track testing for an individual of my means would be cost prohibitive, and unnecessary for just having a bit of fun on track days, and the occassional club autocross.

      Thank You,
      Tom


    6. 05-19-2005 09:49 AM #6
      I will tell you tomorrow hopefully.

    7. 05-19-2005 10:18 AM #7
      I'm on the list to get a set from the first batch, But I haven't been contacted yet for my payment info. Credit card is waiting patiently.

      I will have some auto-x feedback, and can check how much faster I am than the competition , and if I get them before June 15th I will have some track testing at limerock. Professional alignment and corner balancing repeated after installation.


    8. 05-19-2005 11:41 AM #8
      Quote, originally posted by tom@ogracing »

      I was looking for responses from people who have already purchased and installed them on their cars. I was also looking for more of a seat-of-the-pants impression, like how do they affect at-limit understeer, turn-in, bump steer, steering feedback, etc. And, I beieve I conveyed that in my post. I did a search and did not find the answers I was looking for, I believe that my questions are valid, and this post could add value to this forum for others who are interested in this product. There is no need to be rude with the "screwy" emoticon. Track testing for an individual of my means would be cost prohibitive, and unnecessary for just having a bit of fun on track days, and the occassional club autocross.

      Thank You,
      Tom

      woa slow down there sailor

      the way i read your post i thought you wanted more technical specs, or factual responses.

      geez luize.


    9. 05-19-2005 01:28 PM #9
      I'm interested too in feedback. BTW, 7thGear, you can't deny your post sucked.

    10. 05-19-2005 07:04 PM #10
      alright, now that i'm home, had a , and could focus lets clear some things up.

      what i was trying to say:

      "seat of the pants" in this case would be a horrible way to relate a persons experience with and without the spindles.

      just as a reference point, up until that huge discussion in the FAQ, "seat of the pants" told everyone that a lowered dub with stiffer springs handles better than the otherwise stocker.

      even tho the modern vortex educated dubber may now take into account said facts when trying to emote his impressions into words, doing so, realsticly, would be half assed at best

      thats like cooking one hambruger for 10 minuets and one for 12. The 12 minuet hamburger tastes better for whatever reason, but what YOUR trying to ask is essentialy how much better that hamburger tastes. Which, would be quite hard to express on the spot, but if given enough time and a rating scale could be devised, one might provide a more or less consistent and valid comparison.

      which brings me back to what i said earlier.

      that to truly compare a spindled vs non spindled car, you would have to have a pretty consistent driver go on the track and push a stock car to its limit, having various recording gear to record the time, and if possible wheel travel and camber change during cornering.

      followed by an identical procedure and track conditions in a spindled car.

      as the spindles do little in terms of ride comfort, especialy in a strait line, and really only start to show their true effectiveness by creating more negative camber than the otherwise stock unit at any given level of compression ( as shown by pyce's audi TT vs stock spindle animation)

      also given tire choice, to say whether or not your car actualy handles better, in the sense of ultimate speed that the car is able to corner, would in fact require you to reach that maximum cornering speed limit.

      which, as much as I myself would like to boast, is very rarely achieved on the street in any sort of consecutive fashion.

      i think that sums up what i was trying to say

      NOW you can flame me.


      Modified by 7thGear at 4:08 PM 5-19-2005


    11. Member Jouko Haapanen's Avatar
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      05-20-2005 05:45 PM #11
      Now that that is cleared up, take a drive up to Georgetown one day next week so you can take my GTI for a spin. It will give you an idea of what the dynamics of the car are like with the Sport Spindles installed and whether one can tell the difference or not.

      Quote, originally posted by 7thGear »
      alright, now that i'm home, had a , and could focus lets clear some things up.

      Jouko Haapanen
      President
      Georgetown Volkswagen

    12. Moderator WolfGTI's Avatar
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      05-20-2005 09:57 PM #12
      Quote, originally posted by Jouko Haapanen »
      Now that that is cleared up, take a drive up to Georgetown one day next week so you can take my GTI for a spin. It will give you an idea of what the dynamics of the car are like with the Sport Spindles installed and whether one can tell the difference or not.

      I will be visiting Toronto in late summer/early fall - any chance the MK3 versions will be available? I know where you are located, I used to live in Toronto/Missisauga.

      R.I.P Barbaro
      I'm all for a clean car, and lowering for performance reasons, decent wheels, etc... but this "stance" crap sucks.
      Quote Originally Posted by 302W View Post
      lol wut? You can have the baddest carbon brakes straight of an Enzo, it doesn't mean jack **** when your contact patch is 1/3 the size it would otherwise be, and partially the sidewall

    13. 05-23-2005 01:48 PM #13
      feedback or impressions anyone?

    14. 05-23-2005 10:54 PM #14
      I was there on Friday, but they didn't have time to put the spindles on, so no luck. Maybe next month.

    15. 05-23-2005 11:27 PM #15
      Hey Tom, have you measured front tire temps across the tread after hard turns? I know my stock 20th suspension could benefit from the spindles since the outside edges of my front tires gets hotter than the centers and inside edges. Just curious if you have the same situation...if not and if your tire temps are equal from other mods, it doesn't make much sense to buy these spindles.

    16. 06-09-2005 03:25 PM #16
      soon, very soon.... last nights photo


    17. Member G-Shock's Avatar
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      06-09-2005 04:21 PM #17
      Quote, originally posted by tom@ogracing »
      feedback or impressions anyone?

      I want to know too


    18. Member chewy'sjetta's Avatar
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      06-09-2005 04:33 PM #18
      for the amount of money spent i think other options would be better. i saw what kind of difference the tt spindles have made, and i don't think its as good as people think. autox times barely got better, and that could be do to more experince. its like dyno tunning cai.

    19. Member rracerguy717's Avatar
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      06-09-2005 08:55 PM #19
      Quote, originally posted by enginerd »
      soon, very soon.... last nights photo

      Hey your missing something in that photo LOL, Mine are going in next week, good luck and have fun . Bob.G
      Read below about mine and other fsi stage 3 owners bad experience and poor results with APR and there Stage 3 Kits. http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...ge-3-dyno-runs
      Quote Originally Posted by jhines_06gli View Post
      I'd say you have nothing to worry about, but then again.....you are driving a modified VW. You have EVERYTHING to worry about!!!
      -J. Hines

    20. 06-10-2005 07:54 AM #20
      Made some good progress last night. Got both sides installed. A few snags/pointers.

      1. My ECS brake upgrade adapter bracket did not fit. I don't think this will pose a problem for others, but I had to do some minor dremel trimming.
      2. I always have hated the pinch clamp for the strut on these cars, so I made a tool finally. I had a spare 8 mm allen socket. I ground it down so it had an egg shape to it. Put it in the gap and turn and it spreads the pinch clamp open. probably saved me an hour of banging around.
      to pull the lower ball joints, i just undid the 3 bolts per side, and brought them down to the basment and had my way with them. They were actualyl not all that tight. A brass drift, and a couple whacks and they were out.
      The ABS sensors were a pain to remove, had to be careful not to damage them. basiacally used a large surface area aluminum drift and they popped out.
      The control arm didnt want to move down far enough to get the strut in with the ball joint mounted. i think my control arm bushings were limiting travel. They need to go 2" lower now than before. Some shine joints may be in order.
      Install in this order.

      Put ball joint in the spindle while joint is unbolted from control arm
      Put spindle on shock
      Get driveshaft started in spindle
      install ball joint in control arm
      install tie rod

      I took some measurements of the stock Vs H2, and Ill post them this weekend. The only change is that the ball joint mount, and the tie rod mount have been moved down almost 2" compared to stock. Everything else is the same. The H2 sport spindle is more heavy duty than the stock parts. They over designed them, and there should be no concerns about the strength of these spindles. Id feel comfortable running them on a truck.

      Btw, i took some camber measurements from before, and i really had uneven camber from my corner balancing. Raising the drivers side increased my neg camber on the drivers side, and lowering the pass side decreased my neg camber. Just like the geometry chart by pyce shows.

      If i don't get enough camber from these, im going to get the lCA extenders as well.


      Pics

      Brake bracket mods

      Installed. See my nice shiny new fender liner. The other was destroyed by a cone



    21. 06-10-2005 07:57 AM #21
      Quote, originally posted by chewy’sjetta »
      for the amount of money spent i think other options would be better. i saw what kind of difference the tt spindles have made, and i don't think its as good as people think. autox times barely got better, and that could be do to more experince. its like dyno tunning cai.

      Maybe you just weren't fast to begin with . Ill see if I can catch those EVO's


    22. 06-13-2005 03:25 PM #22
      Enginerd,

      You mentioned that you had taken some measurements of the stock spindle vs. the H2Sport spindle. Did you notice any difference between the the in regards to the location of the tie rod ends? I was under the impression that H2Sport had also changed that location as well as the location of the ball joint.

      Let me know when you get more of the coil pack retainers in, my #2 cyl. pack won't stay down.

      Tom


    23. 06-13-2005 03:54 PM #23
      I finished my install this weekend ran into some snags due to my big brakes. ill have lots of pics dimensions etc up in a couple days. Driving impressions to follow. unfortunately I missed my auto-x this sunday.

      They relocated the tie rod mount an equal distance as the ball joint. There was no noticeable change in Toe after installing the spindles. On the tt spindles people were installing the tie rods upside down, or swapping the left side to the right side to correct the geometry. No issues here. I think they change the toe curve to reduce bump steer as well as the camber curve. When the ball joint gets pulled inward toe in is created, and vise versa. This now happens at a different rate. Steering feels more immediate, ill have more feedback later tonight


    24. Senior Member 16vracer's Avatar
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      06-13-2005 11:48 PM #24
      Looking forward to your impressions, Justin.
      '05 Evo GSR '08 A4 3.2Q S-Line '10 RX-350 /// Gone and dearly missed 06 Evo RS "Formula 409"--409awhp
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    25. 06-14-2005 09:55 AM #25
      Quote, originally posted by enginerd »
      I finished my install this weekend ran into some snags due to my big brakes. ill have lots of pics dimensions etc up in a couple days. Driving impressions to follow. unfortunately I missed my auto-x this sunday.

      Quite curious around your brake issues. Which BBK? I guess some sort of rubbing or interferance was caused?


    26. 06-14-2005 01:21 PM #26
      Well, I still haven't had time to properly check alignment and setup the car. Had to do exhaust work on an 86 supra last night let's just say i was bleeding by the end of the night.

      I will hold off on comments till the alignment is set. For now, I notice less roll, and more immediate steering feel. Ultimate grip has not been tested.

      I had some problems with the ID of the brake rotors rubbing on the lower part of the spindle near the ball joint.


      This is not something that will happen with stock brake setups.

      Here are some pics.

      I have the ECS tuning brake upgrade. I forget what version they call it, or what stage it is. 13.0" Front Rotors, Adapter brackets to move the stock calipers.

      Had to trim the spindle to fit the caliper as well.


      i had to grind a little off the spindle. Maybe 0.060. nothing major. here is the clearance after.

      When I get new rotors I will have to work on this again as mine are worn down pretty good.


      Modified by enginerd at 1:23 PM 6-14-2005


      Modified by enginerd at 1:25 PM 6-14-2005


      Modified by enginerd at 2:55 PM 6-14-2005


    27. Member Jouko Haapanen's Avatar
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      06-14-2005 01:38 PM #27
      The Sport Spindle drops the ball joint enough that "non-stock" brakes may or may not clear the ball joint area...

      The H2Sport brake kit on my GTI is based around the 334mm R32 rotor (13.2") and Brembo 6-piston calipers and this clears the ball joint nicely. Depending on the wheels/calipers one uses with these rotors, spacers may or may not be needed. With my application, using factory 17"/18" wheels, a relatively thin spacer is required. If one were to use a lesser caliper, I expect you could get away with no spacer.

      Jouko Haapanen
      President
      Georgetown Volkswagen

    28. 06-14-2005 01:44 PM #28
      Let's refresh our memories:

      1) I know these spindles add dynamic negative camber.
      Do they also:
      2) Add static negative camber?
      3) Raise roll center (and thus reduce roll)?


    29. Member Jouko Haapanen's Avatar
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      06-14-2005 02:00 PM #29
      I will give Tom a ring and ask him to enlighten us with a post if he has some time....but if my memory serves me correctly the Sport Spindle gives an extra -0.5 degrees (per side) of static camber. Additionally, by relocating the pick up points for the ball joints, the roll centre is raised.

      Jouko Haapanen
      President
      Georgetown Volkswagen

    30. 06-14-2005 02:03 PM #30
      Quote, originally posted by Jouko Haapanen »
      The Sport Spindle drops the ball joint enough that "non-stock" brakes may or may not clear the ball joint area...

      The H2Sport brake kit on my GTI is based around the 334mm R32 rotor (13.2") and Brembo 6-piston calipers and this clears the ball joint nicely. Depending on the wheels/calipers one uses with these rotors, spacers may or may not be needed. With my application, using factory 17"/18" wheels, a relatively thin spacer is required. If one were to use a lesser caliper, I expect you could get away with no spacer.

      Excellent, I am glad to see you have everything sorted out that will be going on my car. <- ..if they ever get the kit together.

      Enginerd - Is it the Stage I 13.1 rotor only or do you have a Stage 2 up (something with calipers)



    31. 06-14-2005 02:53 PM #31
      My kit uses the stock calipers, and 13.0 rotors. I measured 13.0, but they were calling them 13.1 at the time.

      It stops great with the hawk HP plus pads. Pedal feel could be better, these are abrupt and somewhat difficult to modulate. I havent had them fade on me with some serious abuse. Maybe this will give me the chance to upgrade when my rotors are cooked. hhmmmmm ill see how they hold up at limerock next thursday.

      I will have before and after camber readings in a couple days, i promise. Tom said I should expect in the neighborhood of -0.4 degrees depending on ride height.


    32. 06-15-2005 09:00 PM #32
      Ok got some readings, and some feedback

      Passenger side -1.9 Degrees Camber
      Driver Side -1.7 Degrees Camber
      Remember I have SPC camber plates set at full camber.

      I havent played with the toe settings. They don't look like they really changed, but the car feels different. I'm going to bring it to a shop to reduce the toe out. It's a bit twitchy for me, and I have a track day coming up. will be great for auto-x.

      I don't seem to have as much torque steer as normal. Also it seems to really grab better in the corners when powering through. It just kind of takes a set and holds it so long as im on th throttle. Not somthing that would notmally happen. usually I cook the tires and the car pushes. It has been real hot here though, so ive been down on power.

      Cornering off the throttle is better. It just doesn't lean over very much. At the same time it doesn't "feel" like the grip is way improved, in part because the car doesn't lean over like crazy. There is something mental when the car leans over all crazy, but doesn't break traction. Makes you think woah this thing sticks. When in reality you were too puss to turn the wheel more, or carry more speed because your horizon was seriously tilting.

      Ill have more feedback when I auto-x this sat, and when the race tires go on. There are a few guys that I usually compare my tiems with, so ill see how bad of a beating they get. The street is not really going to allow me to test the limits.

      So for now
      Less lean - Corners really flat
      quicker steering
      less torque steer
      almost 2 degrees negative

      oh, and the technoweenie says
      more static camber = more grip
      less lean = more camber = more grip
      more dynamic camber = more grip
      less lean = better transitions (slalom)




      Modified by enginerd at 9:02 PM 6-15-2005


    33. 06-16-2005 07:50 AM #33
      Quote, originally posted by enginerd »
      .

      So for now
      Less lean - Corners really flat
      quicker steering
      less torque steer
      almost 2 degrees negative

      oh, and the technoweenie says
      more static camber = more grip
      less lean = more camber = more grip
      more dynamic camber = more grip
      less lean = better transitions (slalom)


      Modified by enginerd at 9:02 PM 6-15-2005

      Sounds great Justin Front Grip, Grip , Grip, cant wait to get mine installed next week along with the LCA extenders , with the already installed GC camber plates . Looks like ill have Approx 3- 3 1/2 degree,s of front camber when im done Bob.G

    34. 06-17-2005 05:26 PM #34
      thank you enginerd, this is exactly the type of feedback i was looking for when i started this thread .

      Please keep us posted after the autocross and your day at Limerock. I'm headed off to VIR this weekend, so I am especially interested in your track time experience.


    35. 06-20-2005 08:10 AM #35
      Got to run this sat at a test n tune auto-x. No points/classifcation. Just a practice session.

      RUN 1 40.5 - 35 psi front 35 Psi rear, Rear Sway Hard, Stock Front Sway
      RUN 2 39.7 - Same setup, and 39.7 = FTD for 2nd run
      RUN 3 39.9 - 2 psi lower front pressure (37 hot), 3/8" Lower front ride
      RUN 4 41.4 - No front Sway
      RUN 5 44.4 - No ABS FUSE

      Car setup was pretty good to start. It cornered flat, and I was fast without even feeling fast. Drove smooth, and clean and just posted some good times. There were only 3 cars that broke under 39 seconds for the first 3 runs. FTD by the end of the day was ~39.2 by a well driven Z06. Some people were running 10+ practice runs, but i had to leave early.

      For run 3 I lowered the tire pressure in the front a bit. I was reaching the cornering limit of the front of the car, but the tires were not rolling onto the sidewall. They were just breaking traction. The car felt better on Run 3, but the time was not as good. Ill count this as margin for error though, as I think the car was faster. Perhaps even less pressure up front, and a tad more in the back.

      Run 4 - The infamous removal of front sway bar. The car handled like absolute poo. Lots of roll, lots of understeer. terrible under trail braking. Im not sure if it's different with stock spindles, but there is no way you could say it handles better with no front sway and 350 Lb spings. Maybe 800 lb springs. When I changed the settings back, i noticed that the suspension rolled so much, and I had to turn the wheel so much more that my tires rubbed the inner fender in places never before rubbed. BAD

      RUN 5 - I have had ABS ice mode a few times in this car. Big brakes, sticky rubber, and late braking from 70 mph for a 90 deg left hander. Pedal gets firm, but the car doesn't slow down. Doesn't lock up either. I removed the ABS fuse for a test, and it was awful. The brake bias was all screwed up. Every time I hit the brakes the back end of the car would lock up, and kick the car sideways in a bad way. After getting way out of control I cruised to the finish for safety reasons.

      So basically I am back to my original setup, but a bit lower up front. I'm getting an alignment tonight to fix to toe settings. As I had a bit of trouble holding a precise line due to the twitchiness of the setup. Zero toe should slow things down a bit for turn in and make it safer for the track days. I may drop my rear sway down a bit as well to make it more neutral.

      This concludes my H2 spindle review. I'm very happy with my purchase. Hopefulyl now I can stop spending money on the car.....




      Modified by enginerd at 9:38 AM 6-20-2005


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