R32 Brake Cooling Ducts - Install / Results

[osbornsm]

SO THE CURRENT DUCTING SYSTEM IS OFF THE CAR BECAUSE IT WAS NOT PRODUCING CONSISTANT RESULTS.

I WILL UPDATE THE POST WHEN I HAVE THE NEW DUCTING SYSTEM INSTALLED THIS WINTER.

So after my researching options for a R32 big brake kit,

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Here are the parts I used to assemble my brake cooling ducts.
Total cost $100 and one fillet finger.

- Aluminum Flange: to connect ducting to shield behind rotor. Link
- Intake ducts to mount in two side openings in bumper.
p/n LEFT (SPA - D106) - RIGHT (SPA - D107)
- 10 ft. x 3 in. ducting for air movement. p/n THENN-300 Found here.
- 8 sets (nut, washer, nylock nut)
- 4 hose clamps
- Exacto Knife / Tin snips
- Bunch of Zip Ties
- Duct Tape
- Drill
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Install Flange to splash shield
- Remove Wheel
- Remove Caliper
- Remove Rotor
- Remove rotor shield
- Cut outline of 3" diameter on shield to allow airflow
- Drill 4 small holes in shield and flange to bolt flange to shield

Routing information for ducting:
Left side
- Horn mounting bracket must be flipped so horn sits on top. This allows room for the intake to fit.
- Must cut plastic fender lining to allow room for ducting
- When routing your ducting to the rotor, take note that the tire at full steering lock will come in contact with your ducting.
---- I therefore cut the inner fender lining to allow room for the duct to pass somewhat behind it.
- Leave room for steering when measuring duct length to rotor shield, it moves ya know.
- Be absolutely sure that the duct does not come in contact with the CV Boot.
- Use duct tape as a sacrificial layer between ducting and suspension components, or anywhere the ducting meets an edge.
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Right Side
- I used the longer / wider intake duct to split the area of the opening into two parts. Half the air for the ducting, and half the air for the aux radiator.
- There is existing ducting from the intake to the aux radiator. I cut away at this until the intake fit snugly.
- When routing your ducting to the rotor, take note that the tire at full steering lock will come in contact with your ducting.
---- I therefore cut the inner fender lining to allow room for the duct to pass somewhat behind it. CAREFUL, there is a belt / pulley for the engine right behind the plastic lining. Make sure the fender lining or ducting does not contact this belt. I got a strange plastic smell, and the pully ate thru my fender lining. So leave space there.
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The zip ties keep the ducting in place during suspension movement.
The duct tape keeps edges / corners from eating away at your ducting.
The exacto knives are really sharp and will easily fillet your finger when you slip. So save the ER trip and watch the follow thru.
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Brakes after cool down lap were 150-200 deg cooler than previous.
Check / tighten zip ties after a while to make sure ducting does not contact "important" parts.
Check for wear on ducting and add duct tape to prevent wearing.

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Please address any further questions below, and thanks for reading !!
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Modified by osbornsm at 4:04 PM 10-11-2006

[hingedthinker]

It's Sean right? Another cool thread! You're awesome! This is a great mod. Did you consider using a smaller diameter tubing to allow more room for maneuvering it around everything?

[osbornsm]

Yea I thought abou smaller tubing when i was slicing up my fender lining and squeezing the ducting between the LCA and the front sway bar. But I'm glad I stuck with the bigger duct... I need all the cooling i can get !!

Sean
(yup that's me, the guy with too much time for posts... see sig)

[BadAssLilR32]

just me or is ducting crazy close to your cv joint?

[osbornsm]

Quote, originally posted by BadasslilGTI »

just me or is ducting crazy close to your cv joint?

It has about 1-2 cm space. I've checked it regularly, to ensure that the zip ties keep it in place. Its pretty good, i think

[NY SLC 93]

Very cool.

[factoryfast]

Very sweet. Nothing like a 100 dollar mod that give tremendous performance/safety gains......you get a gold star.......

[Diesel Power]

NICE work, i hope to be doing something really similar to this...roughly how long would you say this project took?

[Stewz-GTI]

I wish I could show you a pic on my hands. I have so many band-aids from slicing myself up do this.

I would put some high temp loctite on those shield bolts (if you didn't)

[newcreation]

cool idea

[jonmacs22]

I cannot tell from your photos but where does the air you are feeding actually hit on the rotor itself?

[Stewz-GTI]

Quote, originally posted by jonmacs22 »

I cannot tell from your photos but where does the air you are feeding actually hit on the rotor itself?

Read this: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1959221

[Mr. Tarmac]

Shouldn't the duct point to the caliper and not the rotor? Seems like when you see a real set up (ie: not a home job, but a real race car set up), the duct is always routed to the caliper.

[mtrsprt]

Nope!
To the center of the rotor, so that the air exits through the vanes of the rotor...
Like in F1, WRC, World Challenge, and all of the club racing cars I've seen... My M3's, too.
Definitely a big help on hot days at the track...
Not needed on the street, though.

[gtiness]

Yeah so, if you've got an engineering team and $$$ you can go all out and duct air to the center etc, etc.

on the other hand...heat is only being generated on one part of the rotor (where it contacts the pads) albeit on both sides of the rotor vs just one. so, wouldn't it seem that providing extra cooling to one part of the rotor would not cause any problems 'in this case'?

and I guess the proof is in the pudding right? He's got lower break temps and his rotors aren't warped.

Cool Mod

[mtrsprt]

True, true,
This is a nice set up... And certainly functional. From the picture it appears that there is airflow to the proper location...as close as you can get... and also onto the rotor face.
I wasn't talking about this kit... I was just respodning to Mr. Tarmac's question of whether the airflow was supposed to go to the caliper, rather than the rotor.
More air to the rotors is always a good thing... As in this installation
Excellent mod.

[Stewz-GTI]

Quote, originally posted by Mr. Tarmac »

Shouldn't the duct point to the caliper and not the rotor? Seems like when you see a real set up (ie: not a home job, but a real race car set up), the duct is always routed to the caliper.

The whole point of a brake is to generate heat believe it or not. So cooling the caliper would actually hinder performance, not improve it.

The cooler the rotor, the more heat it can transfer before the pads reach max thremal (typically ~1200deg) and therefore "fade".

The cooling that is created by a system like this happens after you have finnished braking, as air is being rammed through the system so your rotor is ready for the next braking point.

[gtiness]

Maybe you've said before but, what track(s) are you running on? Got any footage?

[osbornsm]

yup, have footage... still editing though. Gingerman, blackhawk, Joliet Autobahn.

[TripleDuble]

Quote, originally posted by Stewz-GTI »

So cooling the caliper would actually hinder performance, not improve it.

You are just simply wrong here. Yes brakes are meant to convert kinetic energy to heat but then also to dump that heat into the air. After a brake (only the pad and rotor surface matter here) gets up to it's peak operating temerature there is no benefit to having more or less heat in it. The caliper (and fluid inside it) itself sees nothing but ill effect from heat, so cooling it is not a bad idea but cooling the rotors is much more efficient.

Osborne - You forgot to mention those heat sinks.

[ARRR Matey 32]

nice mod dude

how did you measure the temp on the rotors?

[osbornsm]

Quote, originally posted by ARRR Matey 32 »

nice mod dude how did you measure the temp on the rotors?

Thanks for the appreciation all

And rotor temps =
http://www.sjdiscounttools.com/rayst30.html

I can't even check my tire pressure when i get back from the cool down lap. Too freaking hot !!!

[Stewz-GTI]

Quote, originally posted by TripleDuble »

You are just simply wrong here. Yes brakes are meant to convert kinetic energy to heat but then also to dump that heat into the air. After a brake (only the pad and rotor surface matter here) gets up to it's peak operating temerature there is no benefit to having more or less heat in it. The caliper (and fluid inside it) itself sees nothing but ill effect from heat, so cooling it is not a bad idea but cooling the rotors is much more efficient.

To clarify, the caliper's performance would be hindered because the tempature of the pads and caliper would fall below ideal operating tempature for hard braking if directly cooled by a mod like this.

If your running a Super4 brake fluid, there is no danger of overheating unless you have the balance to far forward.

Remember he is running a stock setup less pads.

[gtiness]

So, you right that there's an ideal temp for brakes. What you seem to be missing is that he is consistently overheating his brakes on track. Not the fluid...the brakes are fading + cooking + not working anymore cuz they can't dissapate the heat they're making.

When they do this, he has to a)slowdown b)get off the track and cool'em

His solution is intended to keep his breaks in the normal operating temps for a longer period of time. NOT to keep them at the optimal temp indefinitely.

He's comprimised engineering perfection for...reality.

[Stewz-GTI]

Quote, originally posted by gtiness »

So, you right that there's an ideal temp for brakes. What you seem to be missing is that he is consistently overheating his brakes on track. Not the fluid...the brakes are fading + cooking + not working anymore cuz they can't dissapate the heat they're making.

Sorry, what was I missing ? http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1929947

[osbornsm]

Quote, originally posted by Stewz-GTI »

Sorry, what was I missing ?

Sorry stew... what was your point there ^^ ?

[TripleDuble]

Osbornsm - you did say "your friend" was boiling "his" fluid (motul 600 IRC) right. I'm sure you know this but boiling fluid is felt with a squishy pedal. If the pedal stays hard but the braking degrades its a pad problem.

Again I'm sure you knew this but just wanted to confirm "your friend" is having fluid problems.

[osbornsm]

Quote, originally posted by TripleDuble »

was boiling "his" fluid (motul 600 IRC) right. I'm sure you know this but boiling fluid is felt with a squishy pedal. If the pedal stays hard but the braking degrades its a pad problem.

And it's not a pad problem.. it's a squishy pedal problem.

[genxguy]

I would think the stock system is good enough. You guys have 13" rotors, with 2-piston calipers, right? That's plenty, even with a curb weight of 34-3500lbs. Just need to get SS lines and the right pads. More important than upsizing rotors is balancing the front/rear brake bias. 13" 2piston caliper in the front, and 10.1" 1piston in the rear is already at the limit, IMO.

Osbornsm, Spec VR will work just fine even with a heavier car like R32.. in case you were wondering.
Have you taken the car out to the track after this brake duct work?


Modified by genxguy at 11:23 PM 6-13-2005

[larryccf1]

nice job

saw someone else use a floor sweeping duct from a woodworkking shop dust vacuum system: the inlet was 1"tall by 8-9" wide and he just put the inlet square into the wind facing forward under the bottom pan on the car - so he lost 1" in ground clearance but was pretty easy install -

[osbornsm]

Quote, originally posted by genxguy »

Just need to get SS lines and the right pads.

Have them both Remember trying to REDUCE system heat.

Quote, originally posted by genxguy »

the rear is already at the limit, IMO.

of what?

Quote, originally posted by genxguy »

Spec VR will work just fine even with a heavier car... in case you were wondering.

Coblat Friction does not make a pad for the R32.

Quote, originally posted by genxguy »

Have you taken the car out to the track after this brake duct work?

Quote, originally posted by osbornsm »

Brakes after cool down lap were 150-200 deg cooler than previous.

[sigep]

Looks like the pics aren't working, I might have to check this out in person. Give me a shout when you are around.

[genxguy]

I meant the front / rear brake balance on a stock R32 is right at the limit of what's considered 'good' vs too much front bias. I can't find it right now, but someone did a brake analysis on various cars including S4, A4, GTI, and R32. They considered the weight distribution, calipers and rotor size, as well as OEM pads. Might have been on Audiworld.

I get a msg from your host that pics will be accessible on 6/19.

[osbornsm]

Ahhh okay, THAT limit is what you're talking about. Id actually like to move it a little rearward and see how that makes things. Different feel? Better / worse for track days.... who know.

[phatvw]

bump for Osbornsm to update links to the pics