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    Thread: My Audi TT front suspension (on MK4 GTI) & Front swaybar question

    1. 07-06-2005 10:26 AM #26
      So what's the maximum static camber possible with the control arms and the camber plate?
      I saw a setting of -1.8 on the plates. My alignment guy got -.5 out of loosening everything up. Now with the adjustable control arm, sounds like at least -2.5 easily?

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      07-06-2005 11:08 AM #27
      Quote, originally posted by traffic »
      So what's the maximum static camber possible with the control arms and the camber plate?
      I saw a setting of -1.8 on the plates. My alignment guy got -.5 out of loosening everything up. Now with the adjustable control arm, sounds like at least -2.5 easily?

      I'm almost maxed at -2.1 with the KMAC plates and the TT LCAs.....I would bet that -2.3 would be topped out.....

    3. 07-06-2005 11:11 PM #28
      Quote, originally posted by traffic »
      So what's the maximum static camber possible with the control arms and the camber plate?
      I saw a setting of -1.8 on the plates. My alignment guy got -.5 out of loosening everything up. Now with the adjustable control arm, sounds like at least -2.5 easily?

      Don't know what the max is, but I gor -1.4 just installing the TT LCA's and spindles. THis is with me sitting in the car.

    4. Moderator eggroller's Avatar
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      07-07-2005 10:28 AM #29
      My alignment is today. I will see what range is feasible.
      Some pictures have been added at the top.

    5. Moderator eggroller's Avatar
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      07-08-2005 10:17 AM #30
      Alignment specs:
      Camber: (L) -1.5* (R) -1.4*
      Caster: (L) 8.1* (R) 8.2* (I asked for Audi TT caster)
      Toe: 0*
      Comments on the Ground Control Camber Plates: The alignment guys do a lot of high-end cars and race-cars. They have not seen this level of camber plate on a VW before. They thought the price was great! I agree! [IMG]http://**********************/smile/emthup.gif[/IMG]
      The decreased roll stiffness due to the Audi TT front swaybar is quite acceptable! (20mm vs 23mm) I have the rear swaybar set at full soft (Neuspeed 25mm rear swaybar) Tire pressure is set even all the way around. I need to get used to this setup before tweaking either of them.

    6. 07-08-2005 10:45 AM #31
      So -1.5 degrees was with what setting on the camber plates? Is this something that can be adjusted at the track when you arrive and the set back for street when you're done?

    7. Senior Member 16vracer's Avatar
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      07-08-2005 11:08 AM #32
      Ray- where did you get the alignment done?
      '05 Evo GSR 509whp gone 06 Evo RS 409whp gone '10 RX-350 '14 Odyssey Elite I just want to do Race car things with my race car friends teespring.com/race-car-friends

    8. Moderator eggroller's Avatar
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      07-08-2005 11:20 AM #33
      Before the alignment I had the camber plates set for -1.0* The alignment guys confirmed that the setting was spot on -1.0 for the Left and -0.9 on the Right. The markings are quite good.
      However, for the caster settings I have they had to tweak the Left side a lot. The entire camber plate is turned about 45*. I won't be comfortable adjusting the settings and using the markings for the camber because it is rotated.

    9. Member greyhare's Avatar
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      07-08-2005 12:14 PM #34
      Just to clear things up, 10.9 is not the bolt size, it is the hardness/strength grade. 10.9 metric is similar to US grade 8.

    10. Member RichB's Avatar
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      07-08-2005 01:17 PM #35
      Quote, originally posted by greyhare »
      Just to clear things up, 10.9 is not the bolt size, it is the hardness/strength grade. 10.9 metric is similar to US grade 8.

      Thanks! You learn something new everyday. I need to pick up something that sizes metric bolts for me to prevent any future confusion.
      Happy Motoring,
      RichB
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      2008 Scion xB Daily Driver (Mostly Stock)

    11. Moderator eggroller's Avatar
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      07-08-2005 02:29 PM #36
      My alignment was done at Omni Brake and Alignment in Kirkland. I have used them for all of my cars (5 of them. 3 are VWs). Pat (front desk) and Randy (tech) are great to deal with and will set it where you want it.



      Modified by eggroller at 11:31 AM 7-8-2005

    12. 07-08-2005 02:31 PM #37
      My car saw Omni the previous week. +1 for satisfied customer.
      Heh, I'll be critiquing Ray's new setup as far as commuting style comfort goes on the way down to Auburn tonight.

    13. Senior Member 16vracer's Avatar
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      07-08-2005 03:12 PM #38
      Good deal, Ray. What do they charge?
      '05 Evo GSR 509whp gone 06 Evo RS 409whp gone '10 RX-350 '14 Odyssey Elite I just want to do Race car things with my race car friends teespring.com/race-car-friends

    14. 07-08-2005 10:48 PM #39
      Quote, originally posted by phatvw »
      Yeah can't wait to ride in your car again!

      BTW Matrix is having a summer sale on parts and labour. You should get your transmission rebuilt and peloquin installed while they have their 15% off deal

      Yup yup, Dan is correct!
      http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2064755


      Modified by jeremy@matrix at 7:50 PM 7-8-2005

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      07-09-2005 09:06 PM #40
      Quote, originally posted by 16vracer »
      Good deal, Ray. What do they charge?

      I also had my alignment done at Omni several months ago. Way better job than Les Schwab. They charge about $85, which is almost double Les Schwab, but you get what you pay for.

    16. Member elRey's Avatar
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      07-11-2005 03:20 PM #41
      Quote, originally posted by RichB »
      [IMG]http://**********************/smile/emthup.gif[/IMG] To make eggroller's point a bit more clear, here is a pic of the TT LCA's...

      The slots on the ball joint connection (bolt holes) allow for the Camber adjustment.

      Man, that's a pretty set of LCAs, bet they came well packed too

    17. Member elRey's Avatar
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      07-11-2005 03:23 PM #42
      Quote, originally posted by tyrolkid »
      You can use the TT "nubless" arms. Just install a 3/8" or so spacer....We've done a number of these installs in the shop.....

      you drill and tap right thru the front beam? If so, you don't think this compromises the LCA's strength?

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      07-11-2005 03:31 PM #43
      Quote, originally posted by elRey »
      you drill and tap right thru the front beam? If so, you don't think this compromises the LCA's strength?

      We havent had problems using this method...the TT LCAs are very beefy....

    19. Member elRey's Avatar
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      11-16-2005 10:23 PM #44
      Quote, originally posted by eggroller »
      I am going from the oem GTI 23mm front swaybar with a lever arm of 7.5" (distance from the bushing to the endlink mounting hole). The spring rate of the Eibach Pro System springs are quite soft.
      The future setup is the Audi TT 20mm front swaybar with a lever arm of 8". Not only is the swaybar a smaller diameter, the lever arm is longer! Making it softer than a 20mm swaybar with 7.5" lever arm.

      I know this is old and may have been discussed somewhere else, but...
      The TT sway mounts to the strut which would be like mounting all the way out at the ball joint as opposed to our stock mounting point ~ mid point on LCA.
      This would increase roll resistance keeping sway the same. Tho I'm not sure if it totally cancels out the bar difference.
      Food for thought.
      Rey

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      11-16-2005 11:08 PM #45
      There would be a verical component and a horizontal component to the lever arm correct? So you can't just do an apples-to-apples 7.5" to 8" comparison can you?
      I think we'd need a Pyce diagram to figure out the difference in roll resistance between the TT and regular VW setup. Anybody know the oem Audi TT spring rate? If the sway bar does indeed resist roll less, then the springs ought to be stiffer. Or perhaps is the TT spindles that account for less roll and allow use of less sway bar.
      edit: Sorry that probably made no sense... just thinking out loud.

    21. Member elRey's Avatar
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      11-16-2005 11:31 PM #46
      All I'm saying is
      yes
      a) 23mm -> 20mm = less resistance
      yes
      b) 7.5" sway arm -> 8" sway arm = less resistence
      but
      c) force applied to middle of LCA -> far end of LCA = more resistance
      for both torque and travel (strut travels further than middle of LCA)

      question is does
      (a + b) =,<, or > c
      keeping springs and everything else the same.

    22. 11-17-2005 12:27 AM #47
      You have to calculate the differential between the two points where the VE bar bolts and the differential between the two points where the TT bar bolts. For let's say every degree of roll of the car, how much is the differential (left to right) between those points. Then you can see which bar has more twist to do due to the larger differential and then the approx. result will come.

    23. Member elRey's Avatar
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      11-17-2005 03:31 PM #48
      Please forgive my ignorance.
      It's been a great while since I've done any math beyond add/subtract/divide
      breaking it down.... way down.
      1)
      going form 7.5" arm -> 8" arm on sway decrease torque on LCA by ~ 6.7% about the sway's horizontal axis (decrease roll resistance)
      Hows does that equate to total resistance change? Way over my head.
      2)
      but moving LCA mounting point from middle to end (double the distance from
      fulcrum) increases torque on LCA ~100% about the inner LCA bolts.
      Again, hows does that equate to total resistance change? Way over my head.
      3)
      This doesn't take into count the increase travel (degrees of rotation)
      seen by moving both above points out.
      4)
      now dia. someone mention increase dia. = increase stiffness to the power of 4. (second hand info could be wrong, or I could have read wrong)
      so, 23mm -> 20mm = ~57% stiffness reduction
      so: (assuming everything is one-one w/ total resistance)
      1) -6.7%
      2) +100%
      3) ?
      4) -57%
      my stab at approx change = + ~36% INCREASE in stiffness

      Warning : I maybe be WAY off on my logic, just trying to exercise the old brain.
      And the scope was just one half of the setup (center on car/swaybar over to one wheel)
      Rey


      Modified by elRey at 12:35 PM 11-17-2005

    24. 11-17-2005 04:52 PM #49
      Your #3 is what matters first. You have to find how much the pickup points move in relation to the wheel movement first. Make it simple:

      Blue points - A4. Red points - TT.
      You have to calculate how much these move in relation to each other (the differential from the earlier post) per let's say degree roll, or inch of vertical movement of the wheel, etc.
      Only after that you can use % to compare them in different diameter scenarios. And also, have to account on what is the total length of each scenario bar, what is the shape, etc. A4 and TT bars are different in shape, not only in diameter, so you need to go much more complex than this if you want to compare them in depth.

    25. Member elRey's Avatar
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      11-17-2005 05:28 PM #50
      Quote, originally posted by pyce &raquo;
      Your #3 is what matters first. You have to find how much the pickup points move in relation to the wheel movement first.

      Let's hypothesize:
      I think it's safe to say the TT pickup points travel more than the A4 points. Agreed?
      That said, keeping it REALLY simple, would an increase in travel on the sway ends per amount of wheel travel increase resistance
      or decrease resistance along that amount of wheel travel?
      I have no idea if "spring rate" of a sway is linear or progressive.
      In either case the more you travel/twist the more force it takes.
      So I assume this would increase stiffness also bringing the total resistance change higher than my previous stab of +~36%.
      My point is not an in-depth calculation. I don't have the knowledge
      to do so. But I think using some logic, what I thought was a softer
      sway (TT) is really a stiffer setup.
      Quote, originally posted by pyce &raquo;
      what is the shape, etc. A4 and TT bars are different in shape, not only in diameter

      I'm not sure how much different each is shaped inside the outer arms, but I wouldn't think how they were shaped beyond that matter other than distance from bolt hole to horiz axis.
      And Length, I don't know. I'm guessing they're about the same.
      Again, I could be COMPLETELY wrong.
      Rey



      Modified by elRey at 2:38 PM 11-17-2005

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