1.8L 16V PL head, 2.0L 16v 9A block conversion...

[dubidoobs]

Quote, originally posted by scirocco16vforreal »

I've got to say what I've got to say before this thing gets locked; Dick, that is your name, Dick, this forum is an enthusiasts forum. If you cannot understand the word enthusiast, go get a dictionary and look it up. We are a group who share a common bond of an attraction towards the 16v engine and VW's in general. We for the most part are not in the business of racing but enjoy a higher performance of the vehicle than a majority of car people. We are a large group who spend much money to enhance that performance. I can understand you not wanting to share your info, that's cool, you paid for it, but this forum is about sharing and perhaps you being out of here is not such a bad thing. Humility goes a long way in sales; condescending attitudes chase off alot of potential customers who want to feel comfortable with a self described expert. I've always consulted Mr. Vittone for expert motor advice, and he won't charge me. As for setting up my ride, Raffi at Eurosport is the man, who has also won many races. He doesn't charge me for advice as well. Life is full of choices, I think this thread has given me a clear idea of what Shine is all about. The name is appropriate.

word. i just started this thread bcoz i had a "spare" 2.0L block sittin on my garage, ready to be used, just wanted to know if i had to swap the internals,and if i did if it will run right...but this makes for good reality show!

[dswalterwi]

I have some cams from both a PL and a 9A. How do you tell which is which?


Modified by dswalterwi at 10:57 PM 8-10-2005

[Mr Black]

Aha! Our first potential guinea pig

I don't know how exactly, they must have different casting numbers or part numbers on them somewhere? Anyhow, if you can figure it out, do a switcheroo and let us know if there's a difference!

[Allyn]

Quote, originally posted by dubidoobs »

this has probably been beat to hell, but i just want some feedback on how much of a difference in performace will the conversion be if i leave the 2.0L block in stock form, ie, no oversized pistons, etc.?

I've done the 2.0 block under the 1.8 stock head with no mods to either, and i am very happy with the results. I might add that a TT race exhaust and a magnaflow muffler seem to help out as well.

[J. Daniel]

Quote, originally posted by SRSVW »

The Euro intake is a poor choice as this makes the situation worse! YOUR HEAD IS EXHAUST FLOW DEFICIENT,SO ADDING MORE INTAKE MAKES THINGS WORSE,NOT BETTER!

I totally don't get this! If the exhaust flow is so deficient that adding more intake cam makes things worse then why did VW do exactly that to make more power?
I'm sure, as usual, the OEMs have some totally effed up reason for doing something like this.
ETKA lists the same cams for the PL and 9A.
Make your own choice on which head you think is better. All the data on intake and exhaust flow is out there.
I've got a PL head on my 9A block and quite frankly it needs more INTAKE cam!

[scirocco25]

OK, lets stop comparing dick length(hehe) and get some real numbers. Who has some lift and duration numbers for either set of cams?

*edit*
I see from ETKA that they list the same P/N. Anyone have a set of each to confirm that they are indeed the same? VW loves to update things so it may not be as simple as it seems that things are the same.

Modified by scirocco25 at 7:21 PM 8-10-2005


Modified by scirocco25 at 7:29 PM 8-10-2005

[scirocco25]

I'd like to add that I think Mr. Shine probably has some interesting things to add to this discussion if people werent always giving him crap on here. I dont like the way he presents himself, but would appreciate hearing some of his experience on this topic. Most of us are trying to acheive similar goals in this hobby, its a shame we cant all share in the knowledge.

[scirocco25]

I would also like to add that simply because a head has a lower static flow number than another head, on either the intake or exhause side, does not make it worse than a head with higher static flow.
The flow bench is useful to a point, but doesnt always correlate to making power in the useful range. Again, i'd like to see some dyno numbers from a pl head on a 9a block vs. a stock 9a. I think at least some of the power gains people are seeing with the pl head/cams are from the bump in compression.

[kafercup]

I agree that Dick seems to have a lot of experience and knowledge. It's just that he seems to have the "Gene Berg" (you'd probably know if you are an aircooled performance person) syndrome where the knowledge and experience are presented in a way that leaves a bad taste in many potential customers mouths.

I'm not saying that he or his products are bad, just that he comes across as a bit coarse and arrogant for the average enthusiast.

[J. Daniel]

Quote, originally posted by scirocco25 »

I think at least some of the power gains people are seeing with the pl head/cams are from the bump in compression.

As far as I know the PL and 9A both had a 10:1 CR.
Maybe my data's wrong.
So, where's the bump in compression coming from?

[Mr Black]

BOth heads have the same size chambers AFAIK, so the difference in compression ratio between PL and 9A is due to the greater cylinder volume and/or piston shape. 9A was rated at either 10.6 or 10.8:1

[dubidoobs]

Quote, originally posted by Allyn »

I've done the 2.0 block under the 1.8 stock head with no mods to either, and i am very happy with the results. I might add that a TT race exhaust and a magnaflow muffler seem to help out as well.

then from ur experience, an exhaust upgrade to your current setup will top it off nicely? coz im running a ss catback TT exhaust w/their hi-flo cat on my stock PL motor now, so mate it with the 9A block, would you say i will have a decent setup? oohhh...im getting excited

[dubidoobs]

Quote, originally posted by J. Daniel »

I totally don't get this! If the exhaust flow is so deficient that adding more intake cam makes things worse then why did VW do exactly that to make more power? I'm sure, as usual, the OEMs have some totally effed up reason for doing something like this. ETKA lists the same cams for the PL and 9A. Make your own choice on which head you think is better. All the data on intake and exhaust flow is out there. I've got a PL head on my 9A block and quite frankly it needs more INTAKE cam!

and thus my theory in swapping to the "euro intake cam" or just basically tweaking the intake on the PL head...i dunno what the "principles" are in NA tuning, but if turbos work off the ehaust part of the engine stroke, then does that mean in NA tuning, you concentrate on the intake part of the cycle? carbs and TB's come into mind while im theorizing this... can someone enlighten me?

[dubidoobs]

Quote, originally posted by scirocco25 »

I'd like to add that I think Mr. Shine probably has some interesting things to add to this discussion if people werent always giving him crap on here. I dont like the way he presents himself, but would appreciate hearing some of his experience on this topic. Most of us are trying to acheive similar goals in this hobby, its a shame we cant all share in the knowledge.

why cant we all just get along?!?!?!

[shellac]

Quote, originally posted by Allyn »

I've done the 2.0 block under the 1.8 stock head with no mods to either, and i am very happy with the results. I might add that a TT race exhaust and a magnaflow muffler seem to help out as well.

Did you notice a big difference going from the 2.0 to the 1.8 head? Where did you notice the difference?

[Agaeris]

About time I chime in again. So here goes. And these are FACTS from reputable sources all over the WORLD:

PL - 86-89 - 86.4mm stroke 81.5mm bore 10.1:1 comp 1786cc
220mm block 144mm rod Intake port flow - 188 cfm exhaust flow - 128 cfm
Redline - 7250 cis-e injected 123hp @ 5800 120tq @ 4250

9A - 90-93 - 92.8mm stroke 82.5mm bore 10.8:1 comp 1984cc
220mm block 144mm rod Intake port flow - 175 cfm exhaust flow - 145 cfm
Redline - 6200 cis-m injected 134hp @ 5800 133tq @ 4400

And according to the local VW dealership, the part numbers for both 1.8 and 2.0 camsets are identical, as well as inquirys to Techtonics tuning, Bildon Racing, and my uncle in Germany who works for Audi/VW.

[scirocco25]

Anyone cc'd the combustion chambers of both of the heads?

[Agaeris]

I have not seen any numbers on that topic, though I imagine they are the same. The pistons and stroke is what changes the compression.

[16vCorey]

The cams in the stock US pl engines had the pointy teeth on the internal cam chain gear, the 9A cams have smoother teeth. I've also got a few extra sets of each, and if I can find the time to do some tests, I'll be glad to share my info.

[scirocco25]

I'd still like to see some numbers on the head cc. I have heard numbers of around 11:1 with the PL head on a 9a block, vs the normal 10.8:1. But there is alot of misinformation and heresay out there so it would be nice to have some real numbers for once.

[scirocco25]

Quote, originally posted by 16vCorey »

The cams in the stock US pl engines had the pointy teeth on the internal cam chain gear, the 9A cams have smoother teeth. I've also got a few extra sets of each, and if I can find the time to do some tests, I'll be glad to share my info.

Would still be interested to hear the results, despite what ETKA says that they are the same.

[Jetta2dr]

Quote, originally posted by scirocco25 »

I'd still like to see some numbers on the head cc. I have heard numbers of around 11:1 with the PL head on a 9a block, vs the normal 10.8:1. But there is alot of misinformation and heresay out there so it would be nice to have some real numbers for once.

I've got a 1.8 head I'll CC this weekend.

[Mr Black]

Quote, originally posted by 16vCorey »

The cams in the stock US pl engines had the pointy teeth on the internal cam chain gear, the 9A cams have smoother teeth. I've also got a few extra sets of each, and if I can find the time to do some tests, I'll be glad to share my info.

Awesome! DOOOO IT.

I can back up the difference on the cam gear teeth, for some reason the 9A's had the rounder ones, probably to minimize noise.

[scirocco16vforreal]

Mr. Black, I concur. When I bought my factory euro intake cam from Neuspeed years ago, I asked Aaron why the teeth were different. He told me to reduce noise. If the euro intake makes a flow situation worse, why did/does it kick ass when you wind it out, compared to the US version? I'll gladly keep the revs up to overcome the mid range loss. It's all about how you drive the car. 16v's work best at high rpm's.

[16vCorey]

The cams they originally cam with are different. Etka has the same part number for both because it's a revised part. If you look up the cyl head in etka, they have the same part numbers also, but we all know they weren't originally the same. I didn't have much time to mess with it today, but I mic'd the lobes and the 1.8l cams seem to have .003" more lift on the intake cam and .004" more lift on the exhaust cam. Not much of a difference, but they are different.

[Agaeris]

That much difference? WOW! Huh, might make for 1 HP. Are the lobes similar in terms of duration? .003 and .004 are small enough numbers that unless the camsets are new, it could be wear. I have seen almost twice that much wear on really tired engines.

[Mr Black]

I don't know if Agaeris is being sarcastic or not but yeah, that seems like a pretty slim-ass difference to me. 0.004" is like one tenth of a millimetre!

Let us know if you can get a sense of duration, both overall and at 1mm or 0.050". Maybe that's where the difference is, if any.

And then, just to be real scientific like, test an extra set of each so you can see if these results are repeatable


Modified by Mr Black at 10:25 PM 8-11-2005

[SickAzzGTI]

So did anyone ever ACTUALLY do a test? People say to search and then u get a bunch of ragged out threads, with no REAL info! Just a bunch of ppl "flexing their muscles" . (Or should I say mouths?)

[jetta86GLI]

16v camshaft for ABF, 9A and PL and KR engines.
All Measurements at 1mm valve lift
IVO= inlet opens
IVC= inlet closes
EVO= exhaust opens
EVC= exhaust closes
PL= peak lift.

KR
Inlet # 027 109 021 AH
IVO 3º ATDC
IVC 35º ABDC
Duration -3 +180 +35 = 212º
PL 9.6mm

PL/9A pre 94
inlet # 027 109 021 AL
IVO 1º ATDC
IVC 21º ABDC
Duration -1 +180 + 21 = 200º
PL 8.8mm

Exhaust cams for 027/051 103 373E/NC NC =* Not classified or No letter
Exhaust # 027 109 022 G
EVO 43º BBDC
EVC 3º ATDC
Duration 43+180+3 = 226º
PL 10.2mm


ABF
Inlet # 051 101 or 051 019 021B
IVO 1º BTDC
IVC 38º ABDC
Duration 219º
PL 10.8mm

Exhaust cams for 051 103 373D heads found on ABF,ADL, ACE and post 94 9A
Exhaust # 051 102 or 051 109 022B
EVO 39º BBDC
EVC 1º ATDC
Duration 39+180+ 1= 220º
PL 10.8mm

[jetta86GLI]