USRT Fueling Solutions

[bw_01jetta]

Thank you for the advice Scott, I'll stick with my stock injector setup for now.

[97jettaTREK]

Hey scott, im soon going to be building my 16vT, im using a 1.8 16v block and head, bored 83mm with 9:1 or 8.5:1 low comp JE pistons, p&p head, balanced crank, lightened intermediate shaft, lightened flywheel, standalone of some type, arp hardware, etc. Im trying to keep my stock rods so...that being said im looking to get around 265whp at say 15-16psi, will my cis-e fuel pump work for this application? Also what do you offer as far as injectors and FPR's go for this application. prb 3.5 bar Fpr right? Also what do you have in the way of short runners? any numbers with FI? Thanks a bunch, Stefan

[Rennenfahrzeug]

c'mon scott where you at man dude guy...

[Scott@USRT]

Sorry for the delay in communications, folks. These constant 12 - 14hour work days are taking the starch out of me.

Quote, originally posted by 97jettaTREK »

im looking to get around 265whp at say 15-16psi, will my cis-e fuel pump work for this application?

Yes, the CIS pumps are super-strong and can support a lot more power than the "mere" 265whp that you're looking to do. That, of course, is true only when they're still working properly. These pumps are now old and crusty. So, if you have any question at all as to your part's condition, you should replace it. If you choose to do so, an inexpensive Walbro 255lph inline is the way to go.

The next level up in pumping muscle is the Bosch Motorsports "044" pump which was originally used in -yep, you guess it -CIS applications:

Quote »

Also what do you offer as far as injectors and FPR's go for this application. prb 3.5 bar Fpr right?

In this application, I would use the Genesis 415cc (INJG415AEB) with a 4bar fuel pressure regulator. That'd flow enough fuel to support the power you're trying to make.

Quote »

Also what do you have in the way of short runners? any numbers with FI? Thanks a bunch, Stefan

Since our previous fabrication partner porked us (and the rest of the VW community), we've not offered the short runner manifolds. We have, however, brought production closer to home and are gearing up for a re-release. Those parts will all be dyno-proven, etc. You'll just have to sit tight for the product release announcements.

[97jettaTREK]

cool cool...thanks a bunch

[97jettaTREK]

Modified by 97jettaTREK at 7:43 PM 1-23-2007

[1.8t rado]

hey Scott.
im in the proces of rebuilding my engine, and i'm trying to figure out what components to use in my fuel system. i have an 8v, 1.9l PG block(bored g60), with forged pistons, a balanced bottom end, ARP hardware, and a 3 angle valve job. its gonna be fed by a Gerret T3 turbo, and i'm planing on running about 15-20 lbs of boost. i'm hoping for around 250hp. i'm probably gonna use the Walbro Inline 255 pump, or the Bosch 044. it depends on wether or not i'm willing to pay extra for the quieter, and more reliable Bosch . i'm probably gonna be using a Megasquirt ecu(high impedance).
anyways, im not sure what fuel lines and filters are needed for either pump, and i don't know what injectors would work best for my aplication. i was also wondering if the oem 3bar FPR will be ok with the larger injectors, or if i'll have to get a higher presure FPR. and one last thing. if i decide to go with an aluminum fuel rail later, wich usually has a larger internal diamiter than the oem rail, will it cause a drop in presure, and efect the peromance of my injectors? thanks

[Scott@USRT]

Hmm... 97jettaTREK needs to take some meds for those mood swings. (chuckle)

Anyway, your questions are intelligent and easy to answer. My favorite! For starters, you can download our pump installation instructions here. Secondly, retaining your stock fuel lines and filters is the best way to go. There is simply no need to change them given your level of output. Third, for 250w(?)hp on a PG 8v engine, I recommend the Delphi 440cc injectors which you should run at 3bar fuel pressure. Finally, a larger fuel rail will absolutely not cause a drop in pressure. In fact, the greater capacity will smooth out the pressure fluctuations that occur in a smaller (stock) rail.

[bakana]

What would you recommend for a 1.8t looking to run 400whp? Thank you

[Scott@USRT]

Quote, originally posted by bakana »

What would you recommend for a 1.8t looking to run 400whp? Thank you

Well... are we talking about pump fuel here? Or, perhaps you've got intentions to make that output on either water/alcohol injector or race gas? Assuming that you want to do it on 91 - 93 octane pump, I'd probably recommend Siemens 630cc at 4bar. Unitronic has some software for that combination, I think. However, that may not be for all ECU versions. A more streetable solution would be Genesis 550cc injectors at 3.5bar (maybe even just 3bar) along with water/alcohol injection to keep things under control. Share some details about your build, though, and I'll give you more specific advice.

[1.8t rado]

those Delphi 440cc injectors spray a single cone, correct?
thanks



Modified by 1.8t rado at 1:40 PM 1-27-2007

[bakana]

Quote, originally posted by Scott@USRT »

Well... are we talking about pump fuel here? Or, perhaps you've got intentions to make that output on either water/alcohol injector or race gas? Assuming that you want to do it on 91 - 93 octane pump, I'd probably recommend Siemens 630cc at 4bar. Unitronic has some software for that combination, I think. However, that may not be for all ECU versions. A more streetable solution would be Genesis 550cc injectors at 3.5bar (maybe even just 3bar) along with water/alcohol injection to keep things under control. Share some details about your build, though, and I'll give you more specific advice.

Well the setup would be a 2.2L short block and and AWP or AEB head. Depends if I can spare the money on the head. Im planning to go standalone. For right now a T04E 50 trim at 25 psi but would eventually upgrade to a GT32 or 35 running at same boost level.

Thank you for the input

[Scott@USRT]

Quote, originally posted by 1.8t rado »

those Delphi 440cc injectors spray a single cone, correct? thanks

Yes, that is correct. The ideal injector for your single intake valve head is an injector that sprays a single well-atomized cone of fuel. That's exactly what you get with this part.

Quote, originally posted by bakana »

Thank you for the input

Sure thing, and I'll share more info when you answer the questions about fuel quality. Also, what's your compression ratio? Will you run hotter cams or do any head porting, etc? Which standalone system are you looking at and will it take low-impedance injectors?

[GTi_kinda_guy]

Scott,

I'm browsing USRT as we speak, wondering for a 2.1L 16vT, hoping to run around 350 to 400+ hp, which injectors will work best? There is a vast range of lb/hour to choose from. 034 EFI will be on the car. I'm not sure what fuel pressure regulator would be best.

When i think of more questions, i'll run them past you.

-Jeff

[Scott@USRT]

Well, if you mean 400hp at the crank, then I'd advice you to go with either 630cc at 3bar, or 550cc at 4bar. The 550cc have the superior spray pattern and will perform better. However, the 630cc are still very good. Meanwhile, if you're asking about 400hp at the wheels, then I'd up the ante to 750cc at 3.5bar. All these advisements assume pump fuel is used. If, on the other hand, you intend to tune with either race gas or water/alcohol injection, then you will need less fuel.

You must be more specific about your set up before I can give you precise advice. That goes for everybody who wants my guidance, btw. You must privde me with some details from which to base the calculations. Otherwise, you're askinga question like "how long is a piece of string?"

[GTi_kinda_guy]

Sorry,

I ment 400 at the wheels. Pump fuel will be used.

[Scott@USRT]

Okay, the 750cc at 3.5bar set up is the way to go. This is a lot of fuel, but because these particular injectors have such fine atomization and the spray pattern is good for your head, they still idle nicely. They're a direct fit to your head once you switch to Digifant injector seats.

[speeding-g60]

HERE ARE THE SPECS OF MY SETUP:

AEB 20V with JBE custom intake, ATP mani (now Treadstone), 3" mustang TB, turbonetics t60-1 HIFI stg 5 turbo. previously ran 4bar fpr on stock rail with RC550 high impedance injectors. haltech e6k standalone.

i have changed it a bit, went deka 750 low impedance injectors, added aeromotive a1000 pump, custom bigger rail, aeromotive 13109 bypass fpr, and fuel cell. using 100 micron filter before pump and 10 micron after pump. the fuel cell has only -8an ports on it.

went -8an to pump, will this be an issue?

and what should i start the fpr pressure at with the new injectors?

what ballpark hp numbers might i expect with this setup? car previously did 302 whp on pump gas @ 18psi, with stock fueling.

thanks for the time and help. also may look into methanol or water injection..... and i will only be running race gas @ 120 or 130....

[Scott@USRT]

Quote, originally posted by speeding-g60 »

went -8an to pump, will this be an issue?

Well, that size line will ensure that you've got plenty of fuel for safe power. Watch out, or you're going to have entirely too much fun.

Quote »

and what should i start the fpr pressure at with the new injectors?

Is your goal to flow the same amount as the 550cc? In that case, you'd need to turn the pressure down to 1.6bar which would not work at all.

Quote »

what ballpark hp numbers might i expect with this setup? car previously did 302 whp on pump gas @ 18psi, with stock fueling.

Your 750cc injectors should be able to support 500whp or so if you use race gas or water/alcohol injection, I'd think. -more than enough to put a grin on your face.

[speeding-g60]

no goal is not to make same fuel with 750's as 550's. my haltech has the map from when it ran 550's @ 4bar in it already, and i need to make it run first. just needed to know where to start the fpr pressure to make it actually run, hopefully in the next day or two.

and i think i am going to get the WAI kit from your other thread.... if you think it will help.

[speeding-g60]

ok, so after being on the phone with scott for more than a half hour, i bought the GB snow performance kit, but a different twist. based on his recommendations, and my hardware setup, i went stage 1 with safe injection box, and i need to source an unavailable-to-usrt part elsewhere. he also gave me where i need to go to get that last part. extremely helpful, does not mind spending the time to help anyone out that has questions about their setups, etc.

he recommends me going back down to the 550's @ 4 bar, and tune with WAI from there.so that is the hot ticket from a very helpful guy, SCOTT @ USRT!!!!

[VW_NUTTER_ECOSSE]

Scott, received the Genesis injectors, thanks
Looking for some more support.. I'm looking to overhaul a Mk1 fuel system and considering either ripping the lot out or replacing and part upgrading. Can you piece together a package to suit this application - I'm looking at lines, FPR, Rail, Pump etc.

Posted here too - the Mk1 guys would be interested too I'm sure.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3060304

[Scott@USRT]

Is there a specific reason why you want to add the fuel cell and replace the stock lines and pump? You'll certainly need the fpr and rail if you're going EFI, but why replace parts that already work? The CIS pump is good for over 400whp. That assumes that it is still in fine condition, of course.

[97jettaTREK]

now scott, i must know how you know all this hooplah about injectors and FPR's? How do you know what to use for each particular application, some equation, just off the top of your head, or what?

or maybe your just WICKED SMAHT

[Scott@USRT]

Haha, I've got some experience doing this, that's all. There are plenty of guys on this forum that absolutely amaze me. They've got specific expertise and are happy to share it, too. That's what this is all about.

To break it down for you, though, injector selection factors in several variables like:

a) Cylinder head design: Picking the correct spray pattern is critical so as to put the fuel at the backs of the valves rather than to produce a splattering/dripping mess.

b) Engine fuel efficiency & detonation characteristics: A sufficient flow rate will support safe power with an appropriate air/fuel ratio.

d) Injector response time: Some injectors are slow to respond while others are exteremely fast. Getting the right response time is important so that the ECU's open/shut "instructions" can be followed precisely.

e) Fuel pressure: The various technology types are more and less tolerant of high pressures. Some can handle no more than 5bar at the rail (such as you'd get with a 3bar regulator and 2bar boost, for example). Others can take 150bar or more!

f) Engine management system type: Injectors are typically either high or low-impedance. A factory ECU will always take high-impedance. Install lows and the injector drivers will fry immediately.

g) Atomizer/metering valve type: Injectors may use any of several different types of atomizer and metering valves: pintle (older Bosch), vibrating disk (Lucas), ball & seat (Rochester), and annular orifice (Bosch & Genesis).

The vibrating disk-type injectors are probably the very fastest in terms of response time. They're also extremely sensitive to (and often lock open/shut at) elevated fuel pressures. Their spray patterns are okay for single intake valve engines and horrible for heads with multiple valves. The ball & seat types feature wonderful atomization, but become uncontrollable at high pressures and high duty cycles. The pintles injectors are reasonably quick, can handle a fair amount of pressure, and can have either fine atomization or fire very tight streams (depending on the design engineer's requirements). All these injectors are generally non-directional, though, meaning that only a single cone that fires straight ahead is emitted. The hot ticket are the annular orifice injectors that are very fast, take big pressure in stride, and can spray in different directions at once.

Ya, I could rattle on and on about this stuff.

[97jettaTREK]

Quote, originally posted by Scott@USRT »

Haha, I've got some experience doing this

Nah dude, i dont beleive that for a second...

I have sort of come to the conclusion that 265 is going to be a little too easy to attain. If im running 15# at 7000RPM ill be easily capable of 290+ right? im thinking a garret gt25 or something. would i still want to go with the genesis and the 4bar FPR?

[Scott@USRT]

Quote, originally posted by 97jettaTREK »

Nah dude, i dont beleive that for a second...

(chuckle)

Quote »

I have sort of come to the conclusion that 265 is going to be a little too easy to attain. If im running 15# at 7000RPM ill be easily capable of 290+ right? im thinking a garret gt25 or something. would i still want to go with the genesis and the 4bar FPR?

Ummm... what engine are we talking here? I'm sure we've discussed it before, but my memory lasts from one phone call (etc.) to the next. Details!

[KrautBoy]

hey scott, need to buy some 750cc injectors high imp (6 of them) aromotive 1000 pump with both filters, fpr to match, and all the lines and fittings to hook up from a fuel cell with -10 male fitting, to the fpr, then to VR6 fuel rail and lines back to the cell with -6. can you help me out.??? IM me please.

[97jettaTREK]

Quote, originally posted by Scott@USRT »

Ummm... what engine are we talking here? I'm sure we've discussed it before, but my memory lasts from one phone call (etc.) to the next. Details!

oh yeah sorry its a 1.8 16v punched out to 83mm je low comp (8.75:1) pistons, MS, scat rods, etc

[Scott@USRT]

Quote, originally posted by 97jettaTREK »

I have sort of come to the conclusion that 265 is going to be a little too easy to attain. If im running 15# at 7000RPM ill be easily capable of 290+ right? im thinking a garret gt25 or something. would i still want to go with the genesis and the 4bar FPR?.. (snip)...its a 1.8 16v punched out to 83mm je low comp (8.75:1) pistons, MS, scat rods, etc

Okay, now we're cookin' with gasoline. I'll let somebody else confirm that you can make 290+ and will take it as a given that you can when doing the fueling calcs. So... with your specs in mind, what I'd use are the Genesis 430cc injectors and run them at 4bar. That'll get the job done and then some.

[procket2_8]

Scott,
I had 2 questions, the first one about the Bosch 044 fuel pump, do recommend keeping the stock pump in the car to feed the bosch inline?

2nd, what are the 630cc injectors rated for in terms of power?

These 2 things are in reference to a 96 vr6 turbo Ill be building, OBD2, using pump gas. Fully built, 3litre, 8.5:1 compression ratio, gt35r, dsr 256 forced induction cam. Lookin to ba able to rev to 7200rpm, and live in PA, not sure of exact altitude. I sold my mk4 vrt to pay for school but next year ill be workin and I have a huge urge to build another car, so this time Im goin big rather than just a spacer. Im lookin for around 500whp at high boost, probably run around 350-380 as the daily driver power. I think that is far sufficient for street use. Thanks for the help

[procket2_8]

almost forgot I really want to retain the factory computer, I was hopin C2 could be my solution in terms of engine management...

[Scott@USRT]

Quote, originally posted by procket2_8 »

Scott, I had 2 questions, the first one about the Bosch 044 fuel pump, do recommend keeping the stock pump in the car to feed the bosch inline?

Yes, that is how I would run it.

Quote »

2nd, what are the 630cc injectors rated for in terms of power?

With your spec in mind, the 630cc injectors at 3bar should support 450 - 500whp on 93 octane. With race gas or They'd be a sound investment. I spoke with Chris from C2 yesterday and 630cc software may actually become available sooner or later. So, keep your fingers crossed.

[procket2_8]

If they were run at 4 bar that would be fine too correct?

[niner]

Scott,

Do you have in/out fittings for the Bosch 044 pump? I want to run it in-line, between the in-tank pump and the fuel filter. I didn't see any on your site.

Also, does the OEM fuel filter provide enough flow? is there any need to upgrade it?

BTW, the car is a R32.