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    Thread: A1 Cabbie Power Window Problems

    1. Member stylngle2003's Avatar
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      08-07-2005 12:29 PM #1
      Hey Gang,
      Car in question is a 1993 Cabbie with power windows...
      the setup: car had a top leak (fixed by Steve Langford's rails, btw) and filled up to the sills with water during 3 days of rain while the owner was out of town. Since then (the carpets are now dry), the windows will not work.
      I pulled out the bentley for it, first checked the 20A fuse wedged way the heck up on top of the relays, it was fine...then I checked at the power window section, and didn't find much except that there is a Power Window Control Unit or something located behind the glovebox.
      So i yanked the Right Front window switch (btw, only the front windows are power), and used my multimeter to check the harness for voltage, using the wiring diagram in the back of the Bentley. also, checked continuity between some of the wires, but thing is...I'm not too well versed in the decrytion of wiring diagrams, so I'm not really sure which wires i should be checking. I am aware that brown is usually ground with VWs, so that was usually the wire that got the black wire from my voltmeter.
      There are also a green/white, blue/gray, red/gray, and gray/black wires at the switch connector, so using brown as ground, and later green/white, i tried to fake the windows into working using a paperclip...to no avail. so i guess that means that the switch isn't the problem.
      now, for me, since both window's stopped working at the same time, i think it must be a problem that is shared by both windows, which leads me to believe it is the (40) ground located under the rear seat, right (according to bentley) or the power window control unit.
      can anyone give me any tips about where the ground is (took out the rear seat, didn't see anything taht looked like a ground), and how to test to verify that the control unit is the problem? also, anyone ever had this problem before? what we are experiencing may not be related to the mini-flood, but it just seemed eerily related to it since the windows didn't work after the rain...

      Cliffs Notes:
      '93 Cab
      after rainstorm and mini-flood, windows don't work
      checked fuse....ok
      checked voltage and continuity at switch, not sure which wires i should check, but had resistance and voltage at several connections
      jumped wires at the switch connector, no luck
      both windows do not work, not even noise from the motors, no clicks, no nothin, so i think the problem must be something that is mutual with both windows...
      anyone had this problem before or can anyone give me tips on which wires to jump/test/check?
      thanks
      oh, and a pic for views:



      Modified by stylngle2003 at 11:50 AM 8-8-2005

    2. Member briano1234's Avatar
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      08-07-2005 01:31 PM #2
      If both motors are not working then it is probably a common problem that you are discribing.
      I would jumper the motors to 12 volts, as that is the way to tell if the motors are causing your condition or not.
      The brown /red tracer is the ground of the motor, the black with red is the 12v...The control unit switches the + and - to get the motors to go up, or down.
      I would also try moving the ground closer, as that is a long way to find a good ground, and subject to breakage. I would first try getting a good ground to pin T8b/1
      If you get 12v at 8b/7 and ground at 8b/1 then It would be the controller that is causing your grief, I suspect that your ground has been disconnected tho. The motors are pretty resilient.
      And since you say your fuse is good, then it isn't getting power. Have you verified the fuse with either an ohm meter or 12v continuity on both sides with the key switch on? I don't know how many times I have been kicked for not checking both sides of a fuse.



      Modified by briano1234 at 1:33 PM 8-7-2005

    3. Member stylngle2003's Avatar
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      08-07-2005 04:18 PM #3
      Briano,
      I have not checked both sides of the fuse yet, as it is super tight up in there, but i will try with some very thin test probes attached to gator clips on my multimeter.
      I know this sounds stupid, but how would I jumper the motors to 12V? do you mean like disconnect thier connectors and ground the brown/red, and connect the black/red right to the battery positive?
      Also, since it's not my car (long story...but it's my best friend's girlfriend's), I don't have the bentley or the car infront of me to look at right now, but where is T8b/1? i remember that from the wiring diagram, but just don't remember where it is. I agree tho that it is a very long ground to go from under the back seat to the window motors or control unit.
      i will try and check those things and check back, thanks for your support

    4. 08-07-2005 04:31 PM #4
      welcome to my world.. i had no flood... but i do have 2 wires going from my battery to the cabin
      with the plug type connectors.. 2 wires coming from the motor +- and 2 from the batter +- mark them up

    5. Member briano1234's Avatar
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      08-07-2005 05:56 PM #5
      That would be the connector on the power window controller, under the knee pad passengers side.
      I would just run two wires from the Battery straight to the motor.

    6. Member stylngle2003's Avatar
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      08-07-2005 06:23 PM #6
      so after putting 12V at the motor, what will happen? will it operate via the switch, or will it go up/down by itself, based on the amount of time it is connected to the battery? it seems to me like this would bypass the control unit, but i am not sure
      also, if i remember right, the ground that goes to (40) is a brown wire from the control unit (i think). would it be acceptable to follow this wire back to the ground location, unfasten it, cut it shorter and then ground it at 8b/1? i have done minor electrical work on cars before, mostly installing stereos, but haven't really ever had the privelege of working with a wiring diagram or anyone as knowledgeable as you guys are. thank you again for your help


      Modified by stylngle2003 at 6:24 PM 8-7-2005

    7. Member briano1234's Avatar
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      08-07-2005 06:31 PM #7
      Well if the window is up, whenyou jumper that motor nothing will happen, if you reverse them then the window will go down.
      You are bypassing the switch.
      I would find the ground lead of the controller, and attach it to the firewall or other good ground like one of the nuts on the knee bar with a circular amp connector.
      I looked at the wiring earlier for the motors, and it is straight forward, through the controller box. The fuse is the first commom failure point. The ground is the second, and if the motors still don't work them I would suspect that the controller toasted itself.

    8. Member stylngle2003's Avatar
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      08-07-2005 07:31 PM #8
      great! that is what i wanted to hear
      i will test these tomorrow and get back to the thread.
      thanks Briano and Ensone

    9. Member qwikxr's Avatar
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      08-07-2005 07:48 PM #9
      yes! another brick fan! yay!

    10. Member stylngle2003's Avatar
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      08-08-2005 12:31 AM #10
      what kind of bricks do you like? that's awesome to see another brickster!

    11. 08-08-2005 12:34 AM #11
      To Tell ya a wierd thing that happened to me with my 92.
      I was getting very poor mpg (like 12mpg) and i replaced the blue cts and the O2 sensor (bosch factory plug type) and for a while it ran great ... well to make a long story short my window controller box thing was making a horrible clicking sound that wouldn't stop even after you turned the car off. It wound up being a bad ground on the O2 sensor i put in. its connected to the water jacket on the side of the head.. don't know if it might have any relevance or not. Just sharing an experience and adding somthing else you might want to check.
      HTH

    12. Member briano1234's Avatar
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      08-08-2005 12:39 AM #12
      wow a ground connected to the water jacket? I'd of never thunked to do that. My o2 is grounded to the valve cover.


    13. Member tolusina's Avatar
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      08-08-2005 12:55 AM #13
      William,
      Boy, thanks a LOT for this thread, VW has certainly over complicated a simple electrical function.
      My best guess given your clues, is water in that very expensive window controller. I'd pull it out, open it, clean the circuit board with brake spray, dry it with compressed air. There are no doubt relays inside, they'll need their contacts cleaned too.
      T8a, T8b and T8c are all at the ECU, T8a and T8c have the inputs, T8b, the outputs.
      The switches don't do anything at all like you'd expect, they are logic switches only, they carry no current to the windows at all. The black/blue and brown wires have nothing at all to do with window operation, they are strictly for the switch illumination.
      The common on the left switch is green, green/white on the right.
      Gray/black and gray/red are the up/down signal wires on both sides, both sides connect to each other. Sorry, I don't know, Bentley doesn't say which color is up, which is down. Again, this section is only logic, no current.
      The control unit reads up or down on the gray/black or gray red wire, it reads left or right on the green (left) or green/white (right).
      The output side is worse. Brown/red is common to both motors, only one motor can operate at a time. This common brown/red also makes troubleshooting a nuisance.
      The left motor has a black/red from the ECU, the right a black/yellow. Seems the ECU has to open one of these when it operates the other because of the common mentioned paragraph up.
      To isolate and test the motors, you'll have to remove the door panels, unplug T2a in the left door, T2b in the right, then you can feed power and ground directly to each motor.
      Circled 40 looks to be right next to the ECU.
      Looking at my car and the pic, you'll see that the schematic lies. There are two wires in T2c, the diagram shows one. With T2c disconnected, the left window still works, with T2a open, neither window works.
      Don't even ask me about amplified speakers, ok?
      Ron


      Quote Originally Posted by kamzcab86
      I hate reading: "But I bought this car for $500 and don't want to put another dime into it."
      ____(hey, it's VW AND it's electrical, what's not to fail?) neoBentley+



    14. 08-08-2005 01:10 AM #14
      ^^^^
      Wow..

    15. Member tolusina's Avatar
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      08-08-2005 01:45 AM #15
      Oh yeah, the ECU needs a key on signal too, it comes in on the black/blue wire to T8b/6.

    16. Member stylngle2003's Avatar
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      08-08-2005 04:36 AM #16
      Ron....wow
      I mean, WOW!
      That is quite possibly one of the best forum responses I have ever gotten, and I thank you for it.
      One part confused me, but I think that I have figured it out....when you mention ECU, you mean the window control unit, yes? If so, then everything else seems to make sense to me. I will have the car into the "shop" (aka the mosquito resort that is my driveway) at 10am this morning, and will proceed to check everything listed above.
      Also, will common "non-chlorinated brake parts cleaner" be fine for the circuit board? if so, good, since I still have some downstairs
      And luckily for the both of us, this cabbie doesn't have the amped speakers Thanks again
      oh and based on my newfound knowledge of the way this works, assuming that the control unit isn't filled with water, i guess the only other exterior detail shared by both motors is their dumb common ground, which could very well be corroded or something inside the case also.
      I will post my findings tomorrow...Thanks again!
      Billy

    17. Member briano1234's Avatar
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      08-08-2005 05:13 AM #17
      I wouldn't use brake cleaner to remove moisture, I would use 100 proof alcohol, you can buy it at most hardware stores or the 90 proof stuff, brake cleaner has been known to eat certain plastics.

    18. Member qwikxr's Avatar
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      08-08-2005 07:29 AM #18
      Quote, originally posted by stylngle2003 »
      Ron....wow
      I mean, WOW!
      That is quite possibly one of the best forum responses I have ever gotten, and I thank you for it.

      [get used to it! ]
      Quote »
      One part confused me, but I think that I have figured it out....when you mention ECU, you mean the window control unit, yes? If so, then everything else seems to make sense to me.

      Yep. I'd bet.

    19. Member qwikxr's Avatar
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      08-08-2005 08:16 AM #19
      I'll IM you so as not to clutter the thread

    20. Member stylngle2003's Avatar
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      08-08-2005 10:48 AM #20
      100proof alcohol = isopropyl? aka rubbing alcohol?

    21. Member stylngle2003's Avatar
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      08-08-2005 11:45 AM #21
      ok yea, this control unit looks pretty much sealed, and i jiggled it and didn't hear any water sloshing around

    22. Member stylngle2003's Avatar
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      08-08-2005 11:50 AM #22
      ok new developments....
      unplugged the harnesses at the back of the CU, cleaned up the contacts a bit, and plugged everrything back in while the CU hangs there. tried both switches...the left side switch causes the relay inside the CU to click ("click click click click" if i move the switch 4 times), but the right side switch does not. i will pull the right switch out and check its contacts, then retry. so it would seem that at least half the switches are sending their signals to the CU.

    23. Member stylngle2003's Avatar
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      08-08-2005 12:32 PM #23
      even more developments...
      removed both door panels and unplugged the window motor harness connectors.
      jumped straight to the battery, both motors work just fine, up and down.
      going to test the fuse for 12V and 8b/1 and 8b/7 for 12V and ground

    24. Member qwikxr's Avatar
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      08-08-2005 12:56 PM #24
      cool deal.. keep us posted what you find..

    25. Member stylngle2003's Avatar
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      08-08-2005 02:10 PM #25
      ok, so I probed the brown wire and gray/red wire at the ECU, by sticking a small wiring nail down into the connector with the key on and the ecu plugged in. as above, finding 12V would apparently mean that the ECU was dead, but that was not the case. with my meter on the 10V scale, it read just under 8V.
      then moved to the fuse...first off, this is a major bitch unless you have very small hands...plus the door chime relay is oh so annoying. anyway, i removed it temporarily (the #4 relay) and also removed the #13 relay, to make accessing the fuse location easier. using the nails again, i stuck them in the contacts on the fuse panel, then attached gator clips to them and also to the test leads on the meter. now, i saw some flickering of the needle (analog meter), but even on the 5V scale, it would never really measure much more than 1V.....
      so i guess that could be the epicenter of the problem right there (thanks, Briano), but i will try again in a few mins to try and get a better connection. oh, and probing the fuse was done with the key in the on posiition (#2 i think). my readings would not have been screwed up bc i removed the #s 4 and 13 relays, would they? any tips would be greatly appreciated
      oh, and i think that it is very weird that only the driver's side window switch causes the ECU to click its relays...anyone with me?

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