USRT Group Buy: Snow Performance water/alky injection

[Scott@USRT]

USRT is proud to organize Vortex’s second water/alcohol injection (WAI) group buy from Snow Performance. These Stage 2 "Boost Cooler" kits are designed for high-strung engines that require detonation control beyond what the engine management system is capable of. This may include big turbo 1.8Ts, 2.0l engines with SC kits, R32's running 100 octane files, etc.

Best of all, instead of $8/gallon+ for race gas, WAI operating costs amount to just pennies. Thus, high-output may be had all week instead of only at the track. Other great benefits are the great intercooling effect, removal of carbon deposits from the combustion chamber, and a general improvement in reliability under race conditions.

WAI is appropriate for use in any forced induction engines, very high-compression normally aspirated engines, and those running large amounts of nitrous oxide. Our kits are equipped with progressive controllers which vary spray delivery to match engine load. This is a great differentiator versus lesser engine-bogging set ups which spray at full-blast even at light engine loads. We provide two nozzles of your choice. (Download this small program to determine exactly how much spray you'll need to get the job done. Assume an 80% injector duty cycle if you have any question in that regard.)

It is important to realize that (like race gas) water/alcohol injection will not make power by itself. What it will do is permit substantial increases in boost pressure, bigger shots of nitrous, more compression, advanced ignition timing, or all of the above combined. Some trial and error tuning is required after installation, to achieve maximum power gains. Improvements can be quite dramatic as our German distributor demonstrated on a customer’s Audi S3:

HORSEPOWER before/after

Audi S3 original power: 153kw = 205whp
with Boost Cooler: 200kw = 268whp

HORSEPOWER/TORQUE (final tune)

Audi S3 original torque (not shown): 270Nm = 199ft/lbs
with Boost Cooler: 456Nm = 336ft/lbs

Until the next 15 units are sold or two weeks has elapsed from Feb.1, 2007, the price will be $359 shipped.

The Rules:
a) Shipping will begin as each increment of 5 kits is sold.
c) Buyers screen names will be posted in this thread.
d) All buyers must be members of VW Vortex.
e) No Member may buy more than 2 kits each.
f) PayPal goes to: sales@usrallyteam.com

To order, DO NOT FORGET to send the following information in your PayPal. (Credit card payment by phone is also acceptable: 856.456.3335):

Buyer name
Street address (NO PO BOXes)
Daytime and nighttime telephone number
Buyer’s email address
VW Vortex member screen name
Vehicle make, model, and year
Indication of MAF or MAP-referencing controller

Notes: Shipping is included in the price for USA buyers only. International freight charges will be added.

We're 100% finished!

Buyers:
FerVR6 (01/24/2007)
speeding-g60 (1/30/2007)
tw1nny03 (2/1/2007)
T-Boy (2/5/2007)
Dragonfli_x (2/5/2007)
theAntiRiced (2/8/2007)
ghostman (2/8/2007)
lanocharacing (2/9/2007)
kindbudz91G60 (2/15/2007)
sergio(2/15/2007)
VR6rocks (2/15/2007)
V-DUB Alec (2/15/2007)
turbo_pumpkin (2/15/2007)
autocrosser11 (2/15/2007)


Modified by Scott@USRT at 3:13 PM 4-30-2007

[scott66]

ok, Scott, for all those people out there wondering the same thing i am.........which stage are we buying here.....

[Scott@USRT]

Whoops, I'm so glad you asked for that clarification. We're talking about either of Snow's Stage II systems here. There are two variant choices, though. One controller version uses a signal sent by the stock MAF sensor to vary spray flow volume. The other has a built in MAP sensor. Folks who've deleted their MAFs, or those running Digifant I or standalone would use the MAP-based controller. Either way the price for a full kit is the same at $359 shipped.

[enginerd]

Awesome price for a progressive controller. A very complete kit for the money.

I see ~45F temperature drop with my WI kit on my STG III. Logged with the AIT sensor. I have ZERO degrees of timing pull even when hitting 25 lbs of boost and holdign 22 lbs. WI really works.

[Speedy G]

Yeah that's a good deal. However, what does the progressive controller control, the pump? Does the kit come with a solenoid in case you want to mount the injector below the level of the tank (otherwise it drips)?

How much nitromethane in the water/alky mix does it take to add 30 hp? How about 50 hp?

You said ask questions... My results will be up soon with the old snow kit (modified of course).

Speedy G

[Scott@USRT]

Yes, the progressive controllers change the input voltage to the water pump. The nozzles that Snow provides are designed to atomize the spray solution very well between 60 - 140psi which is the range that the controller produces. Most other nozzles (including those from highly-respected Aquamist) will dribble at the low pressures. This is a key differentiator! The solenoids are available as an upgrade for $40.

Regarding the nitromethane, I'm not sure what it will take to make that kind of power. I have not experimented with it, yet. Be the first and let us know, Speedy!

[Speedy G]

There's a good discussion about mixtures in the following forum:

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/phpB...t=105

Speedy G

[cvisinho]

Would there be any increase in power by just hooking the kit up and spraying away?

[Scott@USRT]

No, that's not how it works. What you can do is install this system and safely turn up your boost way beyond what your engine can handle currently. Think of WAI just as you would race gas but with the added bonus of significant intercooling improvements. The big difference compared to race gas, however, is that you can run it all the time for pennies.

[Galacius29]

i dont know very much about WI so i'm just trying to figure out, if you run high boost all the time with a WI setup, is that harmful to the engine or car at all?

[darrenewest]

Scott I am seriously thinking of this. I've been doing a lot of research and actually sent you a few PM's, don't know if you got them or not. I have seen up too 8 degrees of timing pull on 94 octane @ 18 PSI, and no pull on 100 octane. I'd like too run full timing up to 20 PSI on 94 octane ? Should bump me over the 400 HP mark.

[darrenewest]

Also Scott some information about the pro's and cons of the MAF vs. The MAP kit ?

[Scott@USRT]

Quote, originally posted by Galacius29 »

i dont know very much about WI so i'm just trying to figure out, if you run high boost all the time with a WI setup, is that harmful to the engine or car at all?

The wear and tear on the engine will not be harmed by the WAI system itself. Rather, that will actually increase reliability under those high-boost conditions. However, even well-managed power increases like this will marginally increase wear and tear on the engine. To put it into perspective, though, you could easily have greater reliability at 20psi than you did at 15psi simply because the combustion process is less violent. This is especially true for those running engines that were not originally designed for boost and/or those using nitrous oxide.

Quote, originally posted by darrenewest »

Also Scott some information about the pro's and cons of the MAF vs. The MAP kit ?

Their aren't any significant pros and cons, really. Both are very effective ways to progressively deliver the spray. MAF arguably is more accurate because it measures the actual mass of the air entering the engine. Meanwhile, a MAP sensor calculates the amount of air entering the engine based on manifold pressure. There are so many variables at work in reality, however, that differences like this are not worth worrying about.

Ultimately, I recommend the MAF-based controllers for those who have them built into their stock engine management systems. Folks who have deleted their MAF sensors (and added diodes, etc.) and those whose cars never came with MAF sensors (i.e. Digifant I, CIS, etc.) should use the MAP controller.

[Issam Abed]

Quote, originally posted by Galacius29 »

i dont know very much about WI so i'm just trying to figure out, if you run high boost all the time with a WI setup, is that harmful to the engine or car at all?

This thread pretty much sums it up.

[_Scirocco20v]

When this group buy end? I have a friend thats intrested in the kit.

[ruso]

Is there any long-term adverse effects to running a setup like this?

[Scott@USRT]

Quote, originally posted by _Scirocco20v »

When this group buy end? I have a friend thats intrested in the kit.

This group buy ends tomorrow! However, with only a few kits sold I'm not satisfied that we've gotten the word out sufficiently. We dubbers are a bit behind the tuning curve compared to bigger markets. So, it'll just take more education and incentives to get the message across. We're planning on a bigger promotion later this month. So, perhaps we'll include these bits, too.

Quote, originally posted by ruso »

Is there any long-term adverse effects to running a setup like this?

No, sir. WAI is a protective measure and reduces wear and tear incurred by detonation. In fact, if you open up an engine that's been it for a short while, it looks as if the combustion chamber is brand new. That's because of the steam cleaning effect. Carbon deposits disappear pretty much entirely.

[ruso]

Quote, originally posted by Scott@USRT »

We're planning on a bigger promotion later this month. So, perhaps we'll include these bits, too.

Cool, because I'm a little tight on cash at the moment, but this is definitely something I'd consider picking up.

Quote, originally posted by Scott@USRT »

No, sir. WAI is a protective measure and reduces wear and tear incurred by detonation. In fact, if you open up an engine that's been it for a short while, it looks as if the combustion chamber is brand new. That's because of the steam cleaning effect. Carbon deposits disappear pretty much entirely.

So Meth would just be the substitute for alcohol? And what kind of tuning is involved after installation?

Quote, originally posted by enginerd »

I see ~45F temperature drop with my WI kit on my STG III. Logged with the AIT sensor. I have ZERO degrees of timing pull even when hitting 25 lbs of boost and holdign 22 lbs. WI really works.

Hmm... so does that mean could pretty much eliminate the need for a IC?

[Scott@USRT]

Quote, originally posted by ruso »

So Meth would just be the substitute for alcohol? And what kind of tuning is involved after installation?

There are different types of alcohol. Meth=methanol is just one of the types. Ethanol (a.k.a. ethyl alcohol = booze) is another, and a 70/30 Isopropyl/water solution is what you get when you buy "rubbing alcohol". Btw, you can use any of these in a WAI system.

Quote »

Hmm... so does that mean could pretty much eliminate the need for a IC?

You could certainly do that, yes. However, I recommend that WAI be used in conjunction with an IC. Applications where ICs are hard/impossible to fit (e.g. Neuspeed SC) are greatly benefitted by these systems. I've got a customer with a SC'd BMW M3 (E36) and he runs 5psi boost with no IC and no timing retard whatsoever. That car is plain ol' nuts. That's on 91 octane, btw.

[germanautoman]

Quote, originally posted by Scott@USRT »

There are different types of alcohol. Meth=methanol is just one of the types. Ethanol (a.k.a. ethyl alcohol = booze) is another, and a 70/30 Isopropyl/water solution is what you get when you buy "rubbing alcohol". Btw, you can use any of these in a WAI system.

Wich one do you recomend? Were do you get it from and about how much does it cost.

[CapeGLS]

Scott, sorry I didnt purchase. After debating on the LM1 and this, I said.. Neither! I need to work on the current set-up and then go from there! Thank you for all of your help!

[Scott F. Williams]

Quote, originally posted by germanautoman »

Which one do you recomend? Where do you get it from and about how much does it cost?

Well, the recommendation depends on what you're trying to accomplish. Pure water is the best at controlling detonation since it does not burn at all. (In theory it has an infinitely high octane rating.) Also, in theory water should take more heat out of the intake charge since it takes more energy to make it change phase (i.e. evaporate). However, it also takes more time to change phase. The distance from the injection point to the combustion chamber is usually very short. So, alcohol can be advantageous because it removes the heat faster. The best results typically come from using enough alcohol to lower intake temps as much as possible and enough water to control detonation. The chemists out there can juggle numbers, but there are so many variables at work that good ol' hotrodding trial and error gets the best results the fastest. I recomend whatever you can find conveniently and for cheap. (Keep in mind that methanol is nasty to the body -as is gasoline, engine coolant, motor oil, etc. -so you have to handle it carefully. Ethanol and Isopropyl are relatively tame.)

Hare some basic calculations to demonstrate how the various alcohols compare with each other. Note that the flow volumes and proportions of water/alcohol are not all the same. The results, however, are fairly close to each other:

Pure water:
0.40 lb/min of water when fully vaporized, will cool the air down from 150° F to 109° F.

Methanol:
100%: 1.08 lb/min of methanol will vaporize, cooling the air from 150° F to 96° F.
50%: 0.55 lb/min of methanol/water will vaporize, cooling the air from 150° F to 107° F

Ethanol:
100%: 1.26 lb/min of ethanol will vaporize, cooling the air from 150° F to 100° F.
50%: 0.57 lb/min of ethanol/water will vaporize, cooling the air from 150° F to 108° F

Isopropyl:
70%: 0.76 lb/min of alcohol will vaporize, cooling the air from 150° F to 107° F.
91%: 1.14 lb/min of alcohol will vaporize, cooling the air from 150° F to 104° F.
100: 1.50 lb/min of alcohol will vaporize, cooling the air from 150° F to 102° F.

Distilled water is a super cheap and can be found at the grocery store. Methanol (99%) can be picked up at WalMart as HEET which removes condensation from gas tanks. Iirc, it costs about $9 a gallon when you buy several 12oz bottles. Ethanol is available at hardware stores as "Denatured Alcohol". That stuff runs about the same amount. Isopropyl (rubbing alcohol) is usually found in 70% concentrations at the pharmacist. I *think* you can find stronger stuff at WalMart, etc. You'll have to check on the price.

[mechsoldier]

I'm confused though, so is this just the stage 2 kit as seen on your site or is that including the map or maf variable controller. I don't get how these two are different as you mention up above it comes with either the map or maf upgrade....is it just listed as two products on your site?

[Scott@USRT]

Sorry for the confusion, Daniel, and thanks for bringing it to my attention. If you take a look again you'll see that I've made the descriptions more clear. In summary, the Stage II kits include either a MAP or MAF-based controller. You'd buy one or the other. If you buy a Stage I kit (i.e. no controller included) you can buy either controller later as an upgrade.

[scott66]

since you are getting some good conversation here>>> http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2127153

i know the masses are thinking they are ready to start buying some units here. i for one thought i was ready the other day, but i got into something else, sorry Scott, dont be disappointed with me

anyways, i think more people are ready to GB .

[f0xf0702k1]

when are these available? im definately in!

[Scott@USRT]

This group buy is long since finished. However, we keep the WAI kits in stock and generally available. Just let me know how I may be of service to you.

[JonVWluver]

How much are your kits going for now, I am looking to cool my car down now that I'm running a stg 2 BBM S/C, I must say though the power gains on the S3 are AMAZING if they were made just using the boost cooler 63 hp is a lot of extra power, Thanks

[Scott@USRT]

Jon, the current pricing is available on the USRT website. Non-IC'd FI engines benefit tremendously from water/alcohol injection for two reasons.

a) Intake air temperatures are dropped massively and instantly which allows more fuel to be burned to produce more power/torque.

b) The tendency to detonate is reduced significantly which permits extra timing advance and MORE BOOST.

That customer's S3 was not modified between runs aside from spraying the WAI and cranking up the boost. Another example is a local customer's Corrado G60T which was detonating at 12psi boost. Now he's able to turn it up to 17psi before he starts to ping at all. Fwiw, he has yet to truly tune the system. So, even greater gains are likely in the near future.

I'll bet that WAI becomes a trend in VW engine tuning next year. We're lagging far behind a lot of the other marques in this regard!

[dragonfli_x]

OMG, when I didn't think my world would get any worse, I finally see the group buy that at one point I wanted to start... now it's gone . ... sniff sniff ... But for bringing it out!

BTW, really dig the new website!

[alexo]

Hi Scott right now i am in the process of building my car (seat Leon 1.8T) with a kit form Pagparts with a Gt2871r, 440cc, 3 inch maf, etc.

I have seen the benefits of wtare inj in a Jetta with a T3-t4 with no injection he could only bust 17 psi, with w-i he can boost it up to 22psi!!!!!

I just have two questions, one it wouldnt be dangerous to the rods the massive torque that you aquire with the w-i kit, and the second question do you ship out to México, if you do can you PM with the shippement cost and ill buy one of these on Monday.......

Thanks

Alex

[ruso]

Scott, do you have the dimensions of both the pump and the tank?

[enginerd]

Here's some test data wringing out 3rd/4th gear uphill with my apr STG III gti.
WI made a huge difference in this cars performance. 16 C (28.8F) difference in peak air intake temps. Zero timing pull at 22 psi 93 octane with 93 in tank. I never tried 100 oct on 93 but a couple stg III guys have mentioned that it works with WI.

Modified by enginerd at 11:04 AM 12-2-2005

[Scott@USRT]

Quote, originally posted by alexo »

I just have two questions, one it wouldnt be dangerous to the rods the massive torque that you aquire with the w-i kit.

Alex, thanks for your support. Please let us know when you've got some nice results from your kit. Your connecting rods' long-term health depends on how hard you push. I can't tell you a specific power level where you'll start breaking parts. However, water/alky injection will help eliminate the sudden pressure spikes which bring sudden death to engine internals.

[ruso]

Quote, originally posted by enginerd »

I never tried 100 oct on 93 but a couple stg III guys have mentioned that it works with WI.