Lifting the Phaeton on a Hydraulic Lift - Precautions

[PanEuropean]

At a recent get-together, we observed some damage to the bottom of one Phaeton. Although it is possible that this damage could have been caused by a road hazard (striking an object that was on the ground, or driving over a curb), it is more likely that it was caused by someone lifting the car on a hydraulic lift without taking care to ensure that the correct lifting points on the bottom of the car were used.

The Phaeton service manual provides two illustrations (reproduced below) that show exactly where the arms of the hydraulic lift need to be placed in order to lift the vehicle without problems. As we all know, the Phaeton is a heavy car, and if the arms of the hydraulic lift are placed in the wrong position, it is unlikely that the non-structural portions of the floor pan will support the weight of the car without deforming.

There have been quite a few threads recently about refitting different tires or rims to Phaetons. If you plan to take your Phaeton to a non VW shop to have this work done, it might be a good idea to print out this diagram and bring it along with you.

Michael

Phaeton Service Manual - Lifting Instructions
I think it is possible that the front and rear illustrations may be reversed, but I am not 100% sure of this.

Damage to Front Left Corner of Car (Inside)

Damage to Front Left Corner of Car (Outside)

Damage to Rear Left Corner of Car (Outside)
Note that this car had been towed (transported) quite a long distance on a flatbed, this likely accounts for the deformation of the lifting point - probably a chain was attached there.

[red.devil]

Poor Kessy unit...

[PanEuropean]

Fortunately, it was not damaged.

Michael

[PanEuropean]

Here are some pictures that I took at my Swiss dealer, showing the hydraulic lift correctly positioned to lift the Phaeton at exactly the points specified in the service manual.

There are two notable differences between the lifts used here in Europe and the lifts that are common in North America: The European lifts have a special round, adjustable pad that makes contact with the bottom of the vehicle, and the lift arms swing underneath the vehicle from the sides, rather than radiating out from a central point, as is common in North America.

Correct positioning of hydraulic lift pads
rear

front passenger side

front driver side

An even better alternative - Phaeton specific lifting pads

[car_guy]

Can I use my floor jack to lift the car at the locations you specify so I can change tires? I would only be lifting one at a time. I would like to do this when I change from summer tires to snows.

If this is possible, it would avoid the issue of the floor jack damaging the lift points that are used by the car jack that comes with the car.

[PanEuropean]

Uh, well, it's not a matter of 'the locations I specify', it's the locations that VW specifies. There are some excellent illustrations in the Owner Manual that show exactly where the jack should be placed - they even have measurements and dimensions. In fact, I think the illustrations in the owner manual are better than the illustrations in the service manual.

One thing you might want to consider is getting some kind of hard plastic puck to use at the point where the jack contacts the car. This would ensure even distribution of the pressure on the bottom of the car, and avoid any possible deformation of the 'longitudinal reinforcement' that the service manual refers to.

Personally, I don't think there is any need to worry about a conventional jack (meaning, a jack other than the one supplied with the car) damaging the longitudinal rail, as long as the pressure is spread out over a reasonably wide area - for example, a distance at least equal to the length of the contact area on the jack that is supplied with the car.

Michael

[red.devil]

Is that a good picture of the fuel cooler for the TDI?

What engine was in that? V6 TDI or V10?

[PanEuropean]

Yes, the aluminum thing in the middle picture (above) is a fuel cooler. The engine in that Phaeton is a V6 TDI. I had the same kind of fuel cooler on my Golf TDI.

Michael

[car_guy]

I'm not familiar with what they refer to as a "trolley jack". Is it the same thing I'm calling a floor jack? If so, that probably answers my next question.

All the illustrations here show the entire car lifted by a service bay hydraulic jack. Just to clarify, are these jack points the same ones specified for use when raising just one corner of the car? I may be a little thick here and this may be obvious to others, but the last thing I want to do is bend something under the car.


Modified by car_guy at 8:03 AM 11-10-2005

[PanEuropean]

I think that the term 'trolly jack' is used to refer to a portable floor jack - in other words, a jack that has wheels on it, and a long handle, and can be easily moved around in a shop. But, I am not sure about this.

The standard 'floor jack' that I am used to (in aviation work) has a fairly small head on it - this is what I was referring to when I suggested you do something to spread the lifting area out over a distance at least equal to that of the head of the OEM jack that is supplied with the car.

Michael

[GripperDon]

Wonder why the underside of the pictured Phaeton's are so dirty and cruddy looking. I crawled under mine to inspect it and also demounted a wheel for inspection. Mine is almost pristine looking compared to the undercarriages shown on this Phaeton forum, not just this thread. None of that rusty looking stuff or all those salt marks. I am so lucky to live here where we don't have snow or mud and the roads are so clean.


Modified by GripperDon at 10:15 AM 11-10-2005

[PanEuropean]

Hi Don:

Interesting that you should say that. I was actually quite surprised (and impressed) by how extraordinarily clean the underside of that car was, even though it has several thousand miles on it. For example, it was possible for me to read the part numbers that were inked on different components, and to see the individual stamps of the inspectors who do the quality control on the vehicle.

I think the difference you see between your car and this car might simply be because you get very little rainfall where you live, thus, not much water gets splashed up underneath your car.

Michael

Underside of the car shown in this post:

[GripperDon]

The pictue you posted above is the best I have ever seen, But this sure is not, However I like mr cars exceptionally clean.

[IMG] [/IMG]

Regarding rain, As I already stated I am lucky to live where there is very little mud and not snow, you are correct. My car has never been driven in the rain, probably never will be. I have other lesser vehicles for such times.
At 6 tp 7 inches a year confined to about a couple of dozen times it is not too hard to avoid those times when it falls.

I have similar comments for under many of the hood pictures. covered with water spots and dirt. Mine looks as delivered. I clean it completely with protectorate every wash. I also remove the wheels when it is cleaned and use protectorate in the wheel wells plus clean the rims on inside and out.

I am however surprised to see any corrosion, The brown wax preservation wax, being a different matter, such as seen above, Regardless of conditions.

Don



Modified by GripperDon at 7:24 PM 11-22-2005

[car_guy]

Quote, originally posted by GripperDon »

Regarding rain, As I already stated I am lucky to live where there is very little mud and not snow, you are correct. My car has never been driven in the rain, probably never will be. I have other lesser vehicles for such times. At 6 tp 7 inches a year confined to about a couple of dozen times it is not too hard to avoid the time when ti falls. I have similar comments for under many of the hood pictures. Mine looks as delivered. I clean it completely with protectorate every wash. I also remove the wheels when it is cleaned and use protectorate in the wheel wells plus clean the rims on inside and out. Don

Considering the way you take care of your car, let me know when you're selling it!

[GripperDon]

Steven

I will. I have a Platinum Nissan Murano 2005 that is know as the worlds most added to Mo. Taken care of the same way also kept in an Air Conditioned Garage. Black Leater interion. If you need a great SUV only 4500 miles. See it at http://www.nissanmurano.org I am GripperDon their. Or look at my galley at hostDub.

Don



Modified by GripperDon at 10:32 AM 11-11-2005

[car_guy]

I checked it out even though I don't need a car now. Quite something. You put so much effort into it and are selling it with only 4500 miles. I guess it's the journey, not the destination that counts.

Gee, I thought you spent all your spare time on your Phaeton. My next car purchase probably will be in three or four years. Please hold on to your Phaeton until then!

[GripperDon]

Steven,

Strictly economics. By Brother in Law owns a couple of homes in this compound and only visits a few times a year and has cars here that here wants me to drive. So that is more cars than there are drivers, SO......... Figured we would keep the Phaeton and drive the others some

P.S. I did love every minute of it. Particurarly the DVD movies via the NAV system.

Finally I do have to save some time for Houseboating on Lake Roosevelt.

Don



Modified by GripperDon at 7:26 PM 11-22-2005

[PanEuropean]

Here is an interesting picture that shows how a hard square rubber block can be used to lift a Phaeton at the points indicated in the service manual illustration at the top of this post.

The hard rubber block distributes the load evenly over the entire underbody structure. I believe that this block can be ordered by VW dealers as a 'special tool'. The service facility where I took this picture is not a VW dealer - it's actually in the basement of the Transparent Factory in Dresden.

Michael

Lifting Block

[gezuvor]

Michael and others,

Looking at the locations where these cutouts are located, they seem to be very similar to the areas used on the A4 and B5 models. Have you considered trying the factory jack pads that are offered for these? I have a set of them on my W8 and they work quite well for protecting the bottom and give the average mechanic (dealer or otherwise) something to aim for...

[PanEuropean]

Hi Richard:

I am familiar with those inserts, I installed a set on my Golf. I think, though, that they are specific to the G/J/P platforms, and not intended for use on the Phaeton. When I was in Europe last week, I spent some time looking through the parts catalog at my VW dealer, trying to see if a similar part was listed for a Phaeton - there was no such listing.

Michael

[gezuvor]

I figured as much, but thought it was worth bringing up.

[PanEuropean]

Archival Note: Related posts -

How to change a flat tire on a Phaeton
Attention Fred... (towards the bottom of the first page)

[PanEuropean]

Photos re-hosted.

Michael

[PanEuropean]

New photo below, showing how sand and water can enter through a hole that is missing a plug, and damage electronics under the driver footwell.

The box with the white label on it is the Access and Start Control Unit (the KESSY, controller 05), the box just aft of it (below, in the photo) is the main circuit breaker panel for high electrical load devices. It contains about half a dozen high amperage self-resetting circuit breakers.

Michael

[fdtinc]

A question about the photos showing the correct lift-points:

My question is about the second and fourth pictures found in Post #4, by Michael.
(Pic #4 is repeated in Michael's post #18).

Picture #2 is labeled:
Front passenger side
Picture #4 is labeled:
an even better alternative...

All these pictures are supposed to identify the correct spot to place the lift arms of a hydrolic lift.
Pic #2 and #4 have the oil cooler visible in each, so I am assuming that both are showing the front passenger side lifting point.

However, the spot where the arm is placed in those two pictures does NOT APPEAR to be the same spot.

Picture number 4, with the black rubber block from the factory in Dresden, shows the rubber block directly under the rectangular area in front of the oil cooler, that is the downward protrudiing rectangle with the holes in it.

But in in the Swiss dealer photo (#2) the lift is set much further towards the outside edge, and also somewhat further back. The rectangular protrusion is completely untouched in the Swiss dealer photo.
The same is true on the front left photo, where the rectangle there is also completely free of the lift arm pad.

Looking at our car, the Swiss lift would appear to be riding right under the thin lip that sticks down, at the very outside, and that does NOT appear right.
Because I am assuming that the Dresden facility surely knows where to put a lift, what explains the discrepancy between Dresden and the Swiss dealer?

It is very confusing, as both supposedly show the right lift point.
Which is right?
Are they alternate points?

Finally, the drawings reproduced at the beginning from the VW manuals are really no good (also true in other VAG manuals), is is not helpful in identifying against on the real thing.

Why can't they just use clear photos, or even better, why can't the hydraulic lift points, as well as the scissor-jack points, just be clearly identified on the car itself with some bright paint (red or so)? Even if caked by dirt, one could just scrape aside and find easily.
The carelessness of these manuals is shown by Michael's mentioning of the front-rear picture mess up:
a) it shouldn't be messed up,
and
b) even Michael, knowing the cars very well, must find these drawings to be so murky, as not to be sure which is which.

Sorry about the manual complaint, but if someone can please identify which of pic #2 or #4 is correct, it is much appreciated.
Thanks, C. Dieter

(PS: Owners manual is awol, will be looking, and hopefully the pictures there are a help, as mentioned above.)

[cai]

I am sympathetic to your dilemma as I have the same doubts about lift locations. What I did was ask my dealer to mark the lift spots for me with some paint. This was sometime ago and I would surmise that the marks have been erased with dirt and other things, so I am going to bring a can of fluorescent paint and have him mark the lift spots again. I will ask him to make the paint marks as big and dense as possible, so that there is no confusion or doubt as to where the jacks go.

As for your AWOL manual, I would say, do not bother. It shows just about the same confusing drawings as ones on this thread. I agree that they should have pictures similar to Michael's.

cai

[fdtinc]

Went to a local dealer today, to see if we could get on of their Phaeton techs point out the right spot.
So, met by a mechanic (assuming he is Phaeton trained having asked for one), and showed him the pictures from above, asking which is right.

Anywhere along the thin lip, just make sure they put the points evenly on both sides.
So followed up, how far away from the tire would still be allowed, and he said, it wasn't important.
I then asked about the "rectangle mentioned above" and its function, and was told, he didn't know, but thought it might also be on OK lifting point.
Finally, it turned out, he had never worked on Phaetons before, they just always place their lift on that ledge on all cars.
So, the info was prob. ok, but not based on any knowledge of the car, but only Golfs and Jetta's.
The tech could not explain the diff. between #2 and #4, very confidence inspiring service dept.
Having just looked at Michael's wheel change thread, where he shows a very good picture of the scissor jack groove around that thin lip, that is something of a confirmation of the Swiss pictures.

Which leads me to wonder why Dresden seems to do it differently, are they the ones in error, hard to believe...

[PanEuropean]

Which leads me to wonder why Dresden seems to do it differently, are they the ones in error, hard to believe...

Dresden probably does it differently because the service facility in the basement of The Transparent Factory is equipped to work on Phaetons only, and nothing but Phaetons. For this reason, it makes sense for them to have the large rubber blocks and the hydraulic lifts that are custom-made for the sole purpose of lifting up Phaetons.

Michael

[Paximus]

Hi Michael,

Please can you rehost your photos relating to jacking and lift hoist precautions, if these are still available?

The TOC and a topic search refer to these threads:

Lifting the Phaeton on a Hydraulic Lift - Precautions [this post]
How to change a flat tire on a Phaeton
Corrosion Prevention Precautions when removing and replacing Phaeton wheels


It's expedient to take the car into an independent, but they haven't worked on Phaeton tyre changes before and I would much prefer no bent cills...

Cheers,
Chris

[VloJoh]

After straying through the vast amount of info in the ToC I read about the problems with water entering the footwell. Took a look at the underbody and found this behind the left and right front-wheels





I tried looking up a picture with part-numbers in ELSA but could not find that.
Am I missing some rubbery bits? If so, how do I order them?

John

[Drewbedoo]

I went to the parts department, they promptly looked up the codes, and ordered them for me. The overall was about 27USD.

Best Regards,

Drew

[Paximus]

These are the bungs to look for: (PanEuropean's 'photo')



And here's the parts list, as supplied by the dealer (cost in £ before tax):



The usual one to lose from hoist lifting is the oval bung, N 904 028 01. The big round one is a one-way valve plug, with a plastic backing piece, 1K0 899 185.

Chris

[VloJoh]

Thank you all for your help. I will get the missing plugs from the dealer using the part numbers you supplied.
What could be the use of removing them other than for fixing when towing?

John

[Paximus]

I believe that either the lift hoist arms stick to the oval bungs and pop them out in the workshop, or internal pressure from the likes of closing two or more doors at the same time can pop one out...

Chris

[VloJoh]

Aha...