Brake Service, Overhaul, Brake Pad and Disc (rotor) Replacement

[PanEuropean]

It's kind of hard to read anything specific into the logo of any one of the VW group companies (VW, Audi, Seat, Skoda, Bentley, etc.) appearing on a part. It could be that the same part is used on an Audi car, or, it could be that one of Audi's subcontractors manufactures that part specifically for the Phaeton. I've seen some parts in my Phaeton that have Seat or Skoda logos on them, even though it is obvious that the part could never be used in a Seat or a Skoda, because those products are much smaller vehicles.

Maybe a better way to look at the question, from a parts point of view, is that any VW AG product could have a part on it that is made by any subcontractor to the group, or, the part could also be used on any other carline of the group. For example, the rear spoiler controller on a Bentley Continental GT has a VW logo on it, because it is (essentially) the same thing as the rear spoiler controller for the New Beetle Turbo. The functionality might be different, though, because the GT has a higher top speed than the NB Turbo - at least, outside of NAR, anyway.

Michael

[bobm]

18.5K and I need new brakes on my front wheels. They will cost $860.00 for pads and rotors. It's expensive to stop this beast:~( The good news is that I got a check pad warning on my infotainment system so I brought it in early for my 2K. The infotainment system has also been acting up in the last few weeks and they need to replace the battery. This car is an energy hog. Boring post I know, but the new guys need to know what to expect.

[PanEuropean]

I guess much depends on the ratio of city to highway driving, the geography (hilly or flat) and the individual style. My VW dealer inspected my brakes - again - when I brought my Phaeton in for the 32,000 km (20K mile) service last week. They didn't bother to measure them, because there was no apparent change from what you see in the photos above. The tech estimated I would get between 50 and 70K miles out of the original pads and rotors, based on how I have used the car so far.

Michael

[dzier]

My brakes squeek right when I hit the pedal, or just when the car comes to a complete stop. It is not a continuous squeek. Is this normal, and what do others experience, if anything?

[Paldi]

Quote, originally posted by dzier »

My brakes squeek right when I hit the pedal, or just when the car comes to a complete stop. It is not a continuous squeek.

Mine too now with 21,000 miles or so. The squeek started before the new wheels were installed so that's not it.

[dzier]

I just turned over 34k miles.

[chrisj428]

David,

I'm inclined to say the squeak, while not "normal", is most likely nothing to be concerned about.

Frequently, I find brake noise of the nature you described is a result of brake dust buildup on the components. Taking the vehicle to a DIY carwash and carefully power rinsing the bits behind the rims usually does the trick.

Be forewarned, however, you now have four very wet brakes. Stopping is going to be a bit dodgy (i.e., longer than you normally expect) until they dry out, so plan accordingly.

[PanEuropean]

Hi David:

Different things can cause the brakes to make a squeaking or squealing noise. There is more information about this on an existing post entitled "Brake Service, Overhaul, Brake Pad and Disc Replacement" - so, to keep all the information together, I am going to merge this new discussion into that existing thread.

Michael

[iluvmcr]

Quote, originally posted by PanEuropean »

I guess much depends on the ratio of city to highway driving, the geography (hilly or flat) and the individual style.... The tech estimated I would get between 50 and 70K miles out of the original pads and rotors, based on how I have used the car so far. Michael

43,000 miles and the brakes are looking good. I do mostly highway driving and live in a very flat area. I think I could get 70k miles out of them. However, my brother-in-law drives his Phaeton mostly city and in the mountains of central PA. He has 12,000 miles on his vehicle and his brakes look worse.

[PanEuropean]

Archival Note:
A discussion about the time interval (2 years) that applies to changing brake fluid - Flushing the brake fluid?

A discussion about the air scoop on the front brake assembly: Front Brake Air Scoop


Modified by PanEuropean at 1:54 AM 3-10-2007

[blevinson]

At my 40,000 mile service I was told my front and rear brakes are at 20%. What have people been paying for brakes in the Chicago area?

[blevinson]

I would also like to know what people think about the need for new rotors. One dealership said I would need just pads and another dealer said they always change the rotors.

[PanEuropean]

Hi Brian:

I can't help you with the pricing information, because I live in a different country (Canada), besides, I have not yet needed to get brakes serviced. The last time my brakes were inspected (30K miles), both front and rears had about 70% pad material still remaining. As you can probably guess, I mostly use the car for highway trips.

The question of replacing rotors at the same time as pads has come up before. Here's the 'executive summary':

- most car manufacturers now make rotors of lighter, thinner material, to reduce unsprung weight.
- the design life of the rotor is the same as the design life of the pad.
- new design rotors can still be turned on a lathe, but very little material will be left once the rotors are turned. Thus, their life expectancy will be greatly reduced.
- sometimes, the rotor will still be within service specs (still thick enough) when the pads are replaced. But, it is unlikely it will have more than 50% of remaining wear still available. Thus it is pointless to change the pads only, because the rotor will wear out before the newly installed pads have worn out.

If you would like to review the previous discussions, complete with photos, etc., please click here: Brake Service, Overhaul, Brake Pad and Disc Replacement.

Michael

[W12Dave]

My "check brake pad" light came on recently and it seems I need to replace the front brakes. What I was wondering is if I can order the parts myself and have my good friend who owns a repair shop install them. I don't claim to know that much about the mechanics of cars so I wanted to see if this was something that could be done by someone other than the VW dealership. Also, how much are the parts since I have to buy pads and rotors?

Any help would be appreciated.

[car_guy]

Quote, originally posted by W12Dave »

My "check brake pad" light came on recently and it seems I need to replace the front brakes. What I was wondering is if I can order the parts myself and have my good friend who owns a repair shop install them. I don't claim to know that much about the mechanics of cars so I wanted to see if this was something that could be done by someone other than the VW dealership. Also, how much are the parts since I have to buy pads and rotors? Any help would be appreciated.

I don't see why your local repair shop can't do the work. These brakes are rather large but no different (as far as I know) than other VW brakes that have sensors built into them. Remember that you're replacing the pads and rotors but not the calipers so you're not getting involved with the hydraulics at all. Not that that would necessarily be a show stopper anyway.

When my turn comes I'm planning to have my shop's mechanic do mine.

BTW, depending on how good a friend he or she is, you might want them to order the parts as s/he will get the wholesale discount from VW or whomever they get them from.

I like to hear from anyone who has used non-OEM pads (perhaps ceramic) to hear about their results. I'm dying to find a way to maintain the great braking characteristics while lowering the massive amount of brake dust.

[mrAW11]

not to be an ass about things, but i doubt your friend is dying to work on a volkwagen let alone a phaeton. hell, i fix volkswagens all day and i hate working on phaetons. since you shelled out for a phaeton, you might as well shell out to have someone fix it who knows something about phaetons. again, not trying to be too big of an ass, but i certainly come across as one

[PanEuropean]

Quote, originally posted by car_guy »

I don't see why your local repair shop can't do the work...

I agree with Steven, it is a very straightforward job, and I can't think of any reason why a competent technician could not do it for you. I have watched the techs at my VW dealer replace brake pads and discs on Phaetons, and they have told me that there is nothing unusual about the whole process.

You might want to draw your friend's attention to the need to use the corrosion preventing wax when mounting the wheels - there is a post about it here: Corrosion Prevention Precautions when removing and replacing Phaeton wheels. The spray can of wax can be ordered along with the rotors and the pads.

Just in case your friend does not have a Phaeton Repair Manual handy, here are the torque specifications for the various components that are involved in brake servicing:

Wheel bolt to wheel hub - all 4 wheels: 120 Nm

Front Wheel Components

Small keeper screw, item 2 - 4 Nm
Hex bolt, item 4 - 22.5 Nm
Hex washer bolt, item 13 - 190 Nm (needs to be replaced - one time use only)
Guide pins, item 15 - 30 Nm

The original thickness of the front disc is 34 mm, the wear limit is 31 mm (this should be engraved on the disc itself), they need to be replaced in pairs, meaning, both fronts or both rears at the same time.

Rear Wheel Components

Self-locking hex bolt, item 1 - 35 Nm
Phillips-head screw, item 5 - 4 Nm
Hex bolt, item 7 - 90 Nm plus an additional 90° 1/4 turn (needs to be replaced - one time use only)

The original thickness of the rear disc is 22 mm, the wear limit is 20 mm.

Michael

[PanEuropean]

Quote, originally posted by Spectral »

So all new pads and rotors will cost about $1000-$1500 at a VW dealer? Is that correct?

There are details about the prices of the consumable parts (pads, rotors, etc.) on the first page of this discussion.

Michael

[Traveller]

how often do you change brake pads?

[bobschneider]

I just had my fronts done at The Autobarn in Evanston. Total cost (including new pads and rotors) was about $775, after using a coupon I got in the mail - without that, it would have been over $800. I had about 31K miles on it, mostly suburban highway driving. My change brake message hadn't yet come up, but the service manager had told me at the last service that it would be soon, and I had the car in for some warranty work, so I got the brakes done at the same time.

BTW, with the included service for my wife's BMW, brake work is covered during the 4 year service period.

[W12Dave]

I'm at the repair shop right now and I'm waiting on my car. He owns Volkswagens and is familiar with them so that's why I use him. He told me I really don't need to replace the rotors (as 1 dealer told me as well). I do have to replace ALL 4 sets of pads though. I am being charged 1 hour of labor ($90) plus wholesale cost of brake pads. That sure beats the $850 the dealer was asking for to replace JUST the front brakes and rotors.

[chrisj428]

An hour's worth of labour to replace brake pads at all four corners is an absolute steal -- you'd better be buying him lunch or drinks or something...

[TurboJewUrS4]

Quote, originally posted by murphybaileysam »

Michael - If you look at your picture, the interlocking circles of the Audi Logo appear to be on the component above your rotor. Is VW using interchangeable parts on the Phaeton with Audi?

Many VW/Audi parts have both the Audi and VW logos on them. They've been sharing parts like this for a long time. It wouldnt surprise me if those rotors were also used on an A8.

[brezle]

My "check brake pads" warning just came on about 3 days ago in my 2004 V8 NAR - how much time would that leave me before needing to get it in for service? (estimate of # of days?)

Quote, originally posted by Kreivi »

It did not sound too expensive at all, but there seems to be about 40% of 'air' in those service dept. prices compared to if you just order the same parts online. Front brakes: Rotor 128 USD Pads 140 USD Rear brakes: Rotor 85 USD Pads 55USD Brake component prices seem to have come down quite nicely in a year. I was looking at the Touareg brake component prices a year ago, and those were roughly twice what they are now.

Also - if I can bring all these parts into VW myself, that should significantly lower the cost of the entire brake job. Anyone recommend a good place to order these parts?
Thanks!

[brezle]

As a follow up to my above post - my VW service dept. said that, at least in Atlanta, their experience with Phaeton brake pads was that all four pads wear evenly, so it is likely that all four need to be replaced. On the other hand, they said that they typically do not have to replace or turn the rotors. If that is the case, I am curious why I was quoted about $1000 USD just to replace 4 pads...

Since I doubt there is $600 worth of labor in replacing 4 pads, wouldn't I be better off spending about $400 buying the components myself and asking them to do the labor?

[PanEuropean]

Quote, originally posted by brezle »

I am curious why I was quoted about $1000 USD just to replace 4 pads...

Ask them the question directly. It is a reasonable question - ask what parts will be required, and what the cost of the parts will be. I don't think that the labour cost (time required to carry out the brake service) will be significantly different than the time required to carry out brake service on any other car.

Michael

[car_guy]

Quote, originally posted by brezle »

Since I doubt there is $600 worth of labor in replacing 4 pads, wouldn't I be better off spending about $400 buying the components myself and asking them to do the labor?

I'd be pretty surprised if a VW dealer will install your brake parts. Let us know what they say.

[Spectral]

Quote, originally posted by brezle »

My "check brake pads" warning just came on about 3 days ago in my 2004 V8 NAR - how much time would that leave me before needing to get it in for service? (estimate of # of days?) Also - if I can bring all these parts into VW myself, that should significantly lower the cost of the entire brake job. Anyone recommend a good place to order these parts? Thanks!

I don't think that it is extremely urgent for you to get your brakes replaced. If the brakes still stop the car safely, you will be fine for a while. I can't give you a time period, but if I were you, I'd replace the brakes within thirty days.

In response to your next post. I doubt your VW dealer will allow you to bring your own parts. I would definately ask them before you order parts. An independent shop might be more accomodating.

It is interesting that your VW dealer will replace the pads without replacing the rotors. Most won't do that.

I have replaced the pads and kept the original rotors on other cars, but have usually been disappointed with the eventual results. Vibration tends to develop after just a few thousand miles.

Modified by Spectral at 9:04 PM 4-3-2007

[car_guy]

Quote, originally posted by brezle »

My "check brake pads" warning just came on about 3 days ago in my 2004 V8 NAR - how much time would that leave me before needing to get it in for service? (estimate of # of days?)

I would not wait too long before before replacing the pads if you're not going to have the rotors replaced. If you wear past the pad material to the metal on the pad and this grinds the rotors, you will be replacing the rotors as well. And the rotors cost a lot more than the pads!

[CyanSunday]

what exactly is "jack mode" when talking about the phaeton? i am assuming it has to do with the presence of an air suspension system but the old land rovers were the last cars i saw that had such a feature.

[W126C]

Hi Shawn,
Look at this link. It will explain everything. "Jack Mode."
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2230724

Regards,
Brent

[CyanSunday]

thanks for that link. i have removed and re-installed all 4 wheels several times for cleaning purposes and i have never done that. i can't say i've ever noticed the car attempting to adapt to my actions but thats good info to have! its also a bit funny because i worked on cayennes for a long time and never saw anything like that in the porsche manuals. +1 for the phaeton!

[PanEuropean]

Quote, originally posted by CyanSunday »

...what exactly is "jack mode" when talking about the Phaeton?

The most simple answer to the question is that invoking 'Jack Mode' turns off the air suspension system. Once the air suspension system has been turned off, it will not attempt to react when you jack up a wheel, or lift the entire car on a hydraulic lift. If you don't turn the suspension system off before you lift the car, the car behaves much like a cat when you lift it up by holding it under its belly - it keeps extending the suspension in an attempt to keep the wheels on the ground.

The post that Brent referenced explains how to invoke Jack Mode. You really don't have to be too concerned about turning Jack Mode off once you are finished your work - the car will automatically turn the suspension system back on again once the speedometer detects movement faster than about 5 MPH.

It is common to see a warning that says "Suspension Fault - Workshop" after you have lifted the car. You can clear this warning very easily by just pressing the "ride height" button, then selecting the highest ride height. This will cause the car to move all the air shock absorbers to a known reference height (that which is used for the highest setting). Once they have all moved to the highest setting, the warning message will go away. You can then re-select the normal ride height and drive away.

Michael

[speckhead]

I just paid 1485 at Liberty VW in Libertyville for 4 new brakes. Gave me a loaner, too!

Liberty Bill ROCKS!

[brezle]

I can't remember where all the discussion on brake service is contained, so I just started a new post. Feel free to quarantine this appropriately...

I managed to save a substantial amount of money on changing pads for NAR phaetons and wanted to share what I did - for the good of the forum, of course.

A friend of mine who does mechanical engineering for Bosch (and who was key in developing the newer ESP systems on all our Phaetons and Audis), directed me to a company in Michigan that specializes in Audi and VW parts sales.
They are called BLAUfergnugen (no joke) and their site is http://www.blauparts.com - they can sell you most OEM VW and Audi mechanical components at the lowest prices I've found. (Disclaimer: I am in no way associated with or have a financial interest in Blaufergnugen, just trying to help others on here save a buck).

Anyways, after being quoted $1000-$1200 to change my pads (and rotors in some cases) from various VW dealerships and auto shops. I decided to order a set of pads for all four wheels from Blauparts, which cost me about $250, including shipping ($160 for the front pads, $69 for the rear, I think). I then took those to the VW dealership, who said labor would be about 2.5 hrs, so all in all, for a full brake pad change, it'll cost me roughly $550. Seems like a pretty simple way to keep about $600 in your pocket.

NOTE: blauparts.com doesn't keep the phaeton brake components in stock very often so you won't find them in their online catalog. But if you call in, which is what I did, they can order them and have them shipped to you in about 1-2 days.

My two cents anyways..