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    Thread: 20v head + MK4 2.0L AEG, AZG, and newer (NOT ABA, NOT 9A, NOT G60, etc)

    1. Member elRey's Avatar
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      02-08-2006 10:32 AM #1
      1.8T 20v head + MK4 2.0L AEG, AZG, and newer block (NOT ABA, NOT 9A, NOT G60, etc)

      I know there's several threads (and one really big one) on the subject
      of 20/20 conversion. However, 98% of that only centers around pre MK4 motors.
      One of the biggest difference MK4 motors DO NOT require plugging
      any oil drain holes in the 20v head (among other differences).

      I'd like to consolidate the MK4 conversion info into this thread.
      This swap should be alot easier and shouldn't have all the extra
      details associated with older motor conversions confusing others researching this conversion.

      I'll post later with any MK4 specific info from the big 20v thread and all the info I have on this subject.

      BIG THREAD - 20V Hybrid - How To

      Thanks,
      Rey

      edit: Let me start off with this:

      The biggest problem that we have to get past which will convince 99%
      of you just starting research NOT to go through with it is this....
      you CAN NOT use the stock 2.0L pistons as they are. The stock pistons
      will NOT clear the middle intake valve on the
      20v head (at least not with safe tolerance). You have 2 choices:

      1) modify the stock pistons by machining a notch relief to clear the valve

      2) buy custom pistons

      I won't get into reasons for going with either now, BUT either choice REQUIRES
      removing the pistons from the block. This also involves at least prep honing
      the cylinders and new pistons rings that you need to properly gap.

      LIST OF MEMBERS THAT HAVE DONE THIS SWAP:
      1)
      2)
      3)


      Modified by elRey at 3:03 PM 2-25-2010


    2. 02-08-2006 01:51 PM #2
      FYI/FWIW Eurospec Sports's 2.0l 20v engines are all AEG blocks.

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      02-11-2006 05:29 PM #3
      It can be done easily.

      Use a regular 1.8t timing belt.

      Using a stock 1.8t headgasket you get ~7.8:1 compression. Using an AEB headgasket you get ~8.5:1 compression.

      The stock pistons must be notched to clear the 5th valve.

      If you retrofit the 2.0 CPS to the 20v head it can be run off 2.0 engine management and coil w/ longer spark plug wires. Just build a custom intake pipe w/ maf and custom exhaust manifold.

      ... internally don't bother with the stock pistons and rods. The stock pistons are extremely weak. The stock rods are the same as the 1.8t in strength. Replace them. Talk to Rodney @ JRC about internals he has done all the match and done these pistons for a 20/20 many times.

      http://www.jrcmotorsports.com/


    4. Member elRey's Avatar
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      02-11-2006 05:45 PM #4
      Quote, originally posted by 2kjettaguy »
      Use a regular 1.8t timing belt.

      Is there a tooth count difference b/w the 1.8T and 2.0 belt?


      Quote, originally posted by 2kjettaguy »
      Using a stock 1.8t headgasket you get ~7.8:1 compression. Using an AEB headgasket you get ~8.5:1 compression.

      Would using a 1.8 head gasket require boring it out for the larger cyc bore?

      Why not use a 2.0 gasket? cr? 3 oil passage holes need to be added to the gasket... easier than boring cyc clearance tho

      Quote, originally posted by 2kjettaguy »
      The stock pistons must be notched to clear the 5th valve.

      Quote, originally posted by bobqzzi »
      Intake valve diameter 26.95mm
      Center valve 15 degrees*

      Quote, originally posted by 2kjettaguy »
      If you retrofit the 2.0 CPS to the 20v head it can be run off 2.0 engine management and coil w/ longer spark plug wires.

      Can the 2.0 management not run the 1.8T CPS? Just splice correct connector?

      What about injectors? Can the 2.0 management run the 1.8T injectors?
      Or can the 2.0 injectors be used w/ the 1.8T intake mani and rail?

      Thanks for the great info.
      Rey


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      02-11-2006 05:55 PM #5
      Quote, originally posted by elRey »

      Is there a tooth count difference b/w the 1.8T and 2.0 belt?

      I am sure there is. The 20v head is taller and the pulley is located further back. The tensioners also differ tremendously.

      Would using a 1.8 head gasket require boring it out for the larger cyc bore?

      Technically, you would want to open the gakset up a little bit. It's only like a MM on each side and could be done easily with a dremel or die grinder given that the gasket was well supported - IE don't do this on your lap.

      Why not use a 2.0 gasket? cr? 3 oil passage holes need to be added to the gasket... easier than boring cyc clearance tho

      Not sure what the CR would be on the 2.0 gasket. Ask Rodney @ JRC. He's got the volume #'s worked out. The 2.0 gasket blocks off the passages in the rear. Ideally you want these 3 passages as they help with crankcase pressure venting.

      Can the 2.0 management not run the 1.8T CPS? Just splice correct connector?

      I haven't tried. I was going to do this but sold the car. My brother has it now and may do this when he can afford it. You would need to measure the different sensors and see what's up. You probably could use the 1.8t sensor as long as you splice the right connector and don't use a VVT one.

      What about injectors? Can the 2.0 management run the 1.8T injectors?
      Or can the 2.0 injectors be used w/ the 1.8T intake mani and rail?

      2.0 management can run any injectors with the right chip. 2.0 injectors can be run with the stock 1.8t fuel rail no problem.

      The real crux here is engine management. There are little to no 'chip' options for the AEG/AZG/AVH 2.0. There's nothing for a 20/20. Your only option for boost sofware is ATP (sucks) or EIP (uses Boost FPR). Still neither will be perfect. EIP can do custom software for you but you'll need to leave the car with them for a while. For $1500 you might as well go standalone.

      Evan


    6. Member elRey's Avatar
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      02-11-2006 06:01 PM #6
      Quote, originally posted by 2kjettaguy »

      The real crux here is engine management. There are little to no 'chip' options for the AEG/AZG/AVH 2.0. There's nothing for a 20/20. Your only option for boost sofware is ATP (sucks) or EIP (uses Boost FPR). Still neither will be perfect. EIP can do custom software for you but you'll need to leave the car with them for a while. For $1500 you might as well go standalone.

      Evan

      Sorry. I had it in my mind due to my personal project timeline, that if 2.0 management would even be considered, it would be for a NA application (a temp situation/phase for me). Like one step in the complete conversion ending with a 20v head and turbo.

      I wasn't even thinking 20/20 turbo'ed management yet.

      Rey


      Modified by elRey at 2:02 PM 2-11-2006


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      02-11-2006 09:22 PM #7
      Nice... a GIAC chip owuld probably do well coupled with a Perfect Power SMT6 piggyback for slight adjustments of timing and fuel

    8. 02-12-2006 09:52 PM #8
      Quote, originally posted by 2kjettaguy »
      The real crux here is engine management. There are little to no 'chip' options for the AEG/AZG/AVH 2.0. There's nothing for a 20/20. Your only option for boost sofware is ATP (sucks) or EIP (uses Boost FPR). Still neither will be perfect. EIP can do custom software for you but you'll need to leave the car with them for a while. For $1500 you might as well go standalone. Evan

      What about the NS SC chip, if I recall correctly you ran in in a 2.0T engine

      Or what about the stock 1.8T AEB software?, it was driver by cable.


      Modified by randallhb at 7:53 PM 2-12-2006


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      02-12-2006 10:17 PM #9
      No Way on the NS SC chip.

      Knowledge and experience after that turbo project tells me that software was nowhere near correct for what I was doing.

      1.8t software won't work if you're doing this to a 2.0. If you're doing this to a 1.8t then yes, it will.

      Evan


    10. 02-13-2006 10:01 AM #10
      Quote, originally posted by Boostin20v »
      FYI/FWIW Eurospec Sports's 2.0l 20v engines are all AEG blocks.

      So, what software Eurospec uses for those engines.


    11. Member elRey's Avatar
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      02-13-2006 11:01 AM #11
      Quote, originally posted by randallhb »
      So, what software Eurospec uses for those engines.

      I don't believe they offer any software for their engines. They just give you the hardware and leave you to fend for yourself on the software side.


    12. Member elRey's Avatar
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      02-13-2006 06:07 PM #12
      I'll put any info I can scavenge from the BIG 20/20 thread in this reply.

      All the following sourced from: BIG THREAD - 20V Hybrid - How To

      -------------------------------------------------------

      Quote, originally posted by Wizard-of-OD »
      Well same principal applies if you dont want to spend money on pistons.Your CR IS going to drop from 10:1 to 8.5:1 when you place the 20V on the AEG bottom end.
      I wouldnt bother buying an "OEM" exhaust manifold when there are tons of decent fabricators all over vortex that can build you a decent extractor for less than what you would pay if you were to import an OEM unit.Talk to Silly SOHC for all your fabrication needs.


    13. Member elRey's Avatar
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      02-14-2006 10:03 AM #13
      Now for a few items I found during my continuing research:

      Here are some parts that will need to be replaced with 1.8t specific
      parts beyond head & mani's (assuming end product will be 20v with stock turbo):
      - oil filter bracket (OR find different source for turbo oil feed)
      - coolant pipe on from of block (needed to clear turbo inlet pipe)
      - remove or relocate sec. air pump (1.8T hoses/bracket)
      - most of the coolant lines
      - all of the vac lines
      - coolant supply hole drilled into back of block for turbo (OR find different source)
      - oil pan w/ oil return connection (or modify 2.0 pan)
      - downpipe


      Modified by elRey at 9:28 AM 7-4-2006


    14. Member twicepardoned's Avatar
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      07-04-2006 04:14 PM #14
      Is thread working anymore?

      OKOKOK

      So I have a decked (.01") AEG block and I was wondering if this was going to make it practically impossible to modify the pistons so much in order to clear the valves on the 20v head?


      Modified by twicepardoned at 12:16 PM 7-4-2006

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    15. 07-04-2006 04:52 PM #15
      I was under the impression that AEG cranks are cast, not forged? Is this correct? Is it worth using if it isn't forged?

    16. 07-04-2006 05:00 PM #16
      I'm pretty sure they are cast as well.

      I hear what you need is aeg headgasket (although 1.8t will work and make even lower CR) and you can use aeg timing belt. You WILL need pistons, that is something everyone here can agree on. Stock AEG ECU MIGHT make the head WORK, but it won't make it work WELL.

      So engine management's the biggest obstacle as of now.

      Anyone selling/fabricating rods/pistons for this project? AND can we organise a group buy?


      Modified by Kougaiji at 3:13 PM 7-4-2006


    17. Member twicepardoned's Avatar
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      07-04-2006 05:20 PM #17
      I'll be in the market for a buy sooner or later... but I'll going piece by piece rather than diving head first.
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    18. 07-04-2006 05:54 PM #18
      Do you still need to mess with pistons if you use the thicker 20v headgasket?

    19. Member twicepardoned's Avatar
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      07-05-2006 11:17 AM #19
      I wanna keep this going... I don't see how you'd have to do any piston modification if you used a thick gasket or stacked 2. There are plenty of people who stack gaskets without any trouble...
      So if clearance is the problem and gaskets can create more clearance then there shouldn't be an issue.... BUT of course I'd really like to hear that from someone who truly understands the 20v conversion!
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    20. Member elRey's Avatar
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      07-05-2006 11:18 AM #20
      Quote, originally posted by elRey »
      thicker head gasket....

      1) Compare deck height of 2.0L vs 1.8T
      2) Find out how deep the relief would need to be
      3) Compare head gasket thickness b/w 2.0L and 1.8T

      adding all that together + stock thickness of head gasket will give
      you required thickness of new head gasket to clear intake valve.

      My rough guess is ~1.5mm - 2mm thicker than stock.

      I don't think it's a good idea.
      1) CR will be way low
      2) more chance to blow the gasket under boost
      3) completely screws up squish/quench
      4) head bolts?
      5) timing belt?

      link for piston design considerations: http://chevyhiperformance.com/techarticles/94138/

      Rey


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      07-05-2006 12:03 PM #21
      My niaveness will have to prevail here because I have no clue what a squish/quench is??? explain please. *stupid, stupid, stupid*

      Other than that, I think you may have a good point and maybe just doing a bit of custom work on the pistons wouldn't be so bad after all!

      NEVER MIND>>... I'm an even bigger idiot because I just followed your link and discovered what squish quench is.... *stupid, stupid, stupid*


      Modified by twicepardoned at 8:07 AM 7-5-2006

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    22. Member twicepardoned's Avatar
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      07-05-2006 12:29 PM #22
      OK so I've read the article now... basically, to sum it up, they are saying that (in my instance) If I use a thicker head gasket to compensate for piston/valve clearance I am creating a larger quench which will produce a less efficient mixture and thus I will be sacrificing minimal but crucial horse power, torque and most importantly fuel mileage!!!!!

      Very insightful article... I certainly will NOT be using a thicker gasket. I am 100% convinced that it will be much more beneficial to do minor modification to the pistons (or simply buy ones for this application).

      Thanks Elrey!!!!!

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      07-06-2006 09:59 AM #23
      So once you have the 20v and all the little parts... will the head bolts line up properly though?

      Also what abought the accesories like the intake and exhaust... I assume you have to use 1.8T's equipment as well????

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    24. 07-06-2006 08:38 PM #24
      Quote, originally posted by twicepardoned »
      So once you have the 20v and all the little parts... will the head bolts line up properly though?

      Also what abought the accesories like the intake and exhaust... I assume you have to use 1.8T's equipment as well????

      That's a positive on all counts.


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      07-07-2006 12:41 PM #25
      So in order for this to work you practically have to have the entire top end of a 1.8T???

      I think this means I will really be taking my time putting this project together. LOL

      Granted I don't think I want to put a 20v and a turbo setup on a stock 2.0 block... because sooner than later I imagine I'd find myself ticked when I blew the bottom end out.

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    26. 07-07-2006 09:44 PM #26
      Quote, originally posted by twicepardoned »
      So in order for this to work you practically have to have the entire top end of a 1.8T???

      I think this means I will really be taking my time putting this project together. LOL

      Granted I don't think I want to put a 20v and a turbo setup on a stock 2.0 block... because sooner than later I imagine I'd find myself ticked when I blew the bottom end out.

      You're safe with AT LEAT 19 psi, most likely more.


    27. Member twicepardoned's Avatar
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      07-08-2006 01:29 PM #27
      Are you saying that a stock AEG block could handle almost 19psi??? That's crazy... what HP range does that put a person in? 200-250? depending on other mods I assume.
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    28. 07-08-2006 03:01 PM #28
      Yeah, at least the bottom end can.

      Don't worry about your bottom end too much right now unless you start heading closer to the 300hp range.


    29. Member twicepardoned's Avatar
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      07-08-2006 03:30 PM #29
      OK so here's another question: when it comes time to turbo charge do I want to use a 1.8T manifold??? and if that's true you could just use the entire turbo setup from a 1.8T... granted it's a weak as hell setup but it is possible right?
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    30. 07-08-2006 04:55 PM #30
      Hmm... manifolds (exhaust/intake) should be 20v manifolds, but do remember, however, that the 20vs are out of Passats and certain Audis. Things may be arranged differently, fitment might be a little different. But if stuff looks the same under the hood, there should be no other issues.

    31. Member elRey's Avatar
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      07-08-2006 06:36 PM #31
      20v head requires 20v manifolds whether they be from a jetta/gti, passat/audi a4, or audi tt 180/225.

      For simplicity, best from a jetta/gti or audi tt 180.

      8v manifolds WILL NOT bolt up to a 20v head.

      If you intend to go N/A or aftermarket turbo, you'll more than likely need
      a custom exhaust mani.

      cheapest turbo route is to go all stock 1.8T stuff used. Will not get you much power, but cheap.

      cheapest NA route is to use stock 1.8T stuff and have a custom connecting pipe fab'ed from 1.8T exhaust mani to your stock downpipe. Not the best for power, but I said cheapest.

      With any of these options, you'll still need to modify your stock pistons to get the 20v head on.

      We haven't even discussed wiring issues or software.

      But focus on the modifying/custom pistons obstacle. If you can't swallow that, don't think about this swap any longer.

      Rey


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      07-08-2006 07:27 PM #32
      Maybe its partially mentality... But for me it just doesn't seem like the pistons would be as big of an issue. I've helped change pistons in a friends Probe (I hate those cars) but it didn't seem to difficult... Other than the inability for him to drive his car for about a week.

      The only thing that sounds difficult to me is finding a donor car to use. Because I am not going to garage my car for months and swap a piece at a time. When I do it I'm doing it all at one time.

      I'll probably take a week of vacation time from work and smash it out with 2 or 3 friends in a week and couple days.

      In fact I just has a friend in KC who was hit in the side in his Passat. It was the turbo also. But unfortunately instead of buying it back from the insurance company he sold it to them!!! So I'm currently chasin g that wreck down and trying to buy it from the insurance co.

      I just wish I would have known before he signed it off. I think they paid like $500 or something small like that.

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    33. Member elRey's Avatar
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      07-08-2006 08:44 PM #33
      twicepardoned are your plans NA or turdo?

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      07-08-2006 09:14 PM #34
      Curreently I'm NA but obviously the end result would have to be Turbo.
      I'm ok with starting on a basic setup using the top end of a 1.8T on a 2.0 block... And turn up the boost a bit.

      But at the same time I won't even begin the process until I can put together the full set piece by piece in my garage or I get a parts car.

      A parts car is most reasonable because I need a 5 spd also. So basically I know it'll be awhile before I can start so I'm continuing to pursue my 8v setup.

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    35. 07-08-2006 09:29 PM #35
      Elrey. How would one take advantage of increased flow from the 20v head on an NA car? I know that Nate's record-breaking NA 2020 dub obviously uses the 20v head, but what engine mods take advantage of the lower CR?

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