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    Thread: 20v head + MK4 2.0L AEG, AZG, and newer (NOT ABA, NOT 9A, NOT G60, etc)

    1. Member elRey's Avatar
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      07-08-2006 08:58 PM #36
      Quote, originally posted by Kougaiji »
      Elrey. How would one take advantage of increased flow from the 20v head on an NA car? I know that Nate's record-breaking NA 2020 dub obviously uses the 20v head, but what engine mods take advantage of the lower CR?

      With everything else that's involved with flow:

      intake
      headers
      exhaust
      cams
      and then software

      don't hold me to it, but I think I read that the 20v head flow ~20% more that 8v head on a flow bench.

      20v intake and TB shouldn't do anything to lower that increase.

      However, using the stock 20v exhaust mani coupled to 8v downpipe
      might lower that ~20% flow increase on the bench.

      Hypothetical, let's say your gain ~12% increase flow with all stock 20v stuff. You've lowered you CR to ~8.4:1.

      The loss in CR will over shadow your gain in flow.

      20v NA application wouldn't be worth it without custom pistons.
      VW did make a 20v 2.0L NA engine ove the pond, but those pistons
      are hard to get a hold of. A set was for sell on here a while ago.

      edit: found them: NA 20v pistons

      FS: 2.0 20V N/A engine kit

      Rey


      Modified by elRey at 6:13 PM 7-8-2006


    2. Member twicepardoned's Avatar
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      07-08-2006 10:46 PM #37
      My understanding of compression is limited... But I'll try and follow along.

      If using an na setup you have to change the pistons??? Couldn't you just deck the block?

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    3. 07-08-2006 11:44 PM #38
      Well, I would go ahead and buy regular 20v pistons. I heard somewhere, though, that the problem with them was the ring size or something

    4. Member elRey's Avatar
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      07-08-2006 11:52 PM #39
      Quote, originally posted by twicepardoned »
      My understanding of compression is limited... But I'll try and follow along.

      If using an na setup you have to change the pistons??? Couldn't you just deck the block?

      If you deck the block, you then have remove more crown height off the pistons. It you didn't the pistons would stick up out of the block @ TDC and interfer with head. Not a big deal since you are already modifying pistons anyway. But decking block vs custom pistons?????


      Quote, originally posted by Kougaiji »
      Well, I would go ahead and buy regular 20v pistons. I heard somewhere, though, that the problem with them was the ring size or something

      By regular 20v pistons, to you mean stock 1.8T 20v? You can't use those. They are for a small cylinder bore (81mm) and will not fit in your larger 82.5mm cylinder bore block.

      There are rare OEM 20v 2.0L pistons as I linked to, but they are hard to get.



      Modified by elRey at 8:53 PM 7-8-2006


    5. 07-09-2006 12:13 AM #40
      Quote, originally posted by elRey »

      By regular 20v pistons, to you mean stock 1.8T 20v? You can't use those. They are for a small cylinder bore (81mm) and will not fit in your larger 82.5mm cylinder bore block.

      There are rare OEM 20v 2.0L pistons as I linked to, but they are hard to get.
      Modified by elRey at 8:53 PM 7-8-2006

      yeah but the two links have two different piston sizes. Also, since this is an AEG and newer thread, are the ABA bore and the AEG bore the same? Just wondering in case you're referring to them as replacements to the ABA pistons.

      Ugh.. I wish more people showed interest in this.


    6. Member elRey's Avatar
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      07-09-2006 09:27 AM #41
      Ahhh, your right. The pistons I linked to are 81mm and will not work.
      I was wrong, I guess VW did not make a 2.0L 20v NA engine.

      For NA application you'll have to get custom pistons made.


    7. Member twicepardoned's Avatar
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      07-09-2006 11:00 AM #42
      So you're saying:

      1-go 20v with modified pistons for turbo
      or
      2-go 20v with entirely new pistons for NA

      I assume this is because if the CR was off (too high? or too low?) then the engine would have almost no ability to create big power. correct?

      And assuming you went ahead and put on a turbo application does this change the CR? or is that a mechanical thing?

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    8. 07-10-2006 10:50 AM #43
      I have been keeping up with this post for a while now. I am planning on doing this swap very soon. I will be building for FI and want low compression. My question is do I have to use the AEB head to get the 8.5:1 with the AEB gasket or can I use any of the 20v heads and use the AEB gasket? Or will that gasket only fit the AEB?

    9. Member elRey's Avatar
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      07-10-2006 11:10 AM #44
      8.4:1 CR was calculated using stock 2.0L gasket.
      I don't know what using other gaskets will give you.

      I believe all 20v have the same combustion volume.

      Though AEB heads have larger ports.

      Any 20v gasket will fit any 20v head.


      Modified by elRey at 9:56 AM 7-10-2006


    10. 07-10-2006 11:57 AM #45
      Quote, originally posted by elRey »
      8.4:1 CR was calculated using stock 2.0L gasket.

      So a stock AEG 2.0L head gasket will work on a 20v head?


      Modified by Shibby at 9:06 AM 7-10-2006


    11. Member elRey's Avatar
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      07-10-2006 12:35 PM #46
      2.0L + 20v head requires drilling out 3 holes in the gasket for oil return/pressure ventilation. They don't have to be percise.

      20v gasket + 2.0L block requires the gasket's cylinder bore to be enlarged from ~81mm to ~82.5mm. This does need to be some what percise.

      You choose.


    12. Member twicepardoned's Avatar
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      07-10-2006 12:53 PM #47
      good to know. I'm gonnago with drilling the oil passages.
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    13. 07-10-2006 07:44 PM #48
      what tensioner is being used for the 1.8t belt? i would like to stay away fro the gel filled 1.8t tensioner.

    14. Member twicepardoned's Avatar
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      07-11-2006 09:00 AM #49
      in the G60 forum they are using an OEM tensioner for the 20v swap. But I have no clue for us...
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    15. Member vwpat's Avatar
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      07-12-2006 09:53 AM #50
      Quote, originally posted by elRey »
      Ahhh, your right. The pistons I linked to are 81mm and will not work.
      I was wrong, I guess VW did not make a 2.0L 20v NA engine.

      For NA application you'll have to get custom pistons made.


      or use mine, which are oem. http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2463563
      it will work in an AEG also (even better than an ABA). I just put ABA in the title since that is what I was using.

    16. Member twicepardoned's Avatar
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      07-12-2006 10:53 AM #51
      So are you parting out those pistons?
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    17. 07-12-2006 01:31 PM #52
      so, last night i did a little calculating of the compression ratios. i did this for my setup, azg 2.0 and 1.8t head. i will post all of the specs later but i came up with two ratios with two formulas. one was 8.8:1
      the other was 9.0:1. can anyone try to firgure out the compression ratio for a newer 2.0 with 20v head. i read in a post somewhere that the compression ratio would be like low 8 or even 7 something. and yes i even calculated the volume of the stock dish and added it into the formula.


    18. Member elRey's Avatar
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      07-12-2006 04:48 PM #53
      on paper all you have to do is compare the difference in volume for the azg 8v HEAD and 20v HEAD. Since everythign else will stay the same.


    19. Member vwpat's Avatar
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      07-12-2006 05:20 PM #54
      Quote, originally posted by elRey »
      on paper all you have to do is compare the difference in volume for the azg 8v HEAD and 20v HEAD. Since everythign else will stay the same.

      exactly, 41cc vs. 30cc so add 11cc to calc.
      edit: I calculate 8.5:1 advertised which will cc about 8.1:1


      Modified by vwpat at 5:38 PM 7-12-2006

    20. Member mystery chip 1.8t's Avatar
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      07-20-2006 03:58 PM #55
      so lets just say,,, u got the head on, u got the whole stock 1.8t turbo set up on with the manifold and intercooler.. to the point it basicallt looks like a 1.8t under the hood. there is no MAP sensor... or vvt.. if u have stock 1.8t injecors in. would it be possible to use an Apexi SAFC to control the fuel? i know that ppl dont uuse them on the 1.8t due to conflicting signals fron the ecu and the safc but on the 2.0 harness IMO there would be no conflict. so basically.. dont run an n75, run the bov/DV fdirectly off the manifold, have a manual boost controler. and let the safc contol the fuel.. what about the fuel pump? is the 1.8t one diff? maybe put in a walbaro 190lph in it? or an inline FP. all this said and done.. do you think you could do this and avoid the software problem?

    21. Member danzig20v's Avatar
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      07-20-2006 10:35 PM #56
      i have a 1.8T right now, rather then building the motor at 1.8l id rather have 2.0l, with good rods

      i really wanna take an AEG bottem end and use that

      but who would make good rods and pistons to handle over 350whp


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      08-02-2006 08:34 AM #57
      Ditto I mean i am confused.. There are a few questions that i would like to get answers to. Like if i am doing this swap into a donor shell. My best bet would be to use a 1.8t engine harness and ecu as far as managemet ?? Also my next question is what are the piston options that i have ?? If i had to get custom pistons what specs would i need on them ?? What about pistons in a N/A buildup ?? Alright thanks

    23. 08-03-2006 12:27 PM #58
      Quote, originally posted by vwpat »
      exactly, 41cc vs. 30cc so add 11cc to calc.
      edit: I calculate 8.5:1 advertised which will cc about 8.1:1


      Modified by vwpat at 5:38 PM 7-12-2006

      <<<<<<<<wow, i haven't seen you on these boards in years...we used to shoot the **** years ago on here, good to see some old peeps still lurking!

    24. 09-01-2006 10:13 AM #59
      Alright guys yesterday I ordered my 034 Motorsports 1c kit with high output coil, 550cc Genesis injectors, and billet rods. JE Pistons will be ordered soon. I already have a T3/Super 60, AWW head, AEG block, EIP Stage 2 street clutch, and Bosch fuel pump. We will be building a longitudinal exhaust manifold and USRT style intake manifold. Anything I am missing?

    25. 09-08-2006 12:12 PM #60
      Will the 1.8t intercooler piping work? I already have intercooler from EIP.

    26. 09-24-2006 08:35 PM #61
      Quote, originally posted by elRey »
      Ahhh, your right. The pistons I linked to are 81mm and will not work.
      I was wrong, I guess VW did not make a 2.0L 20v NA engine.

      For NA application you'll have to get custom pistons made.

      You guess wrong Rey, there is a 2.0L 20v NA engine in Mexico and Europe, its called ALT and you can see more info I posted here: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2822366


    27. Member twicepardoned's Avatar
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      09-26-2006 11:30 PM #62
      So if there is already this motor out there... then the need to modify the pistons isn't necessary and you could, in reality... either buy this short block OR just the pistons.

      What about the internals on the ALT? Are they forged?

      I sure hope so because that would be lame as hell if they made a 20v 2.0 with cast parts!

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    28. Member twicepardoned's Avatar
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      10-04-2006 09:32 AM #64
      Must not be enough 20v AEG interest... I'm going 2.0T w/ an 8v at this point and I'll swap a 20v down the road I guess...
      Going turbo is just starting to sound easier and cheaper than swapping heads right now... haha
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    29. 10-04-2006 10:31 AM #65
      Well I just got my standalone, high output coil, Raceware head studs, and injectors in the other day. Rods are on the way. I just need to order pistons and I will be all set. The only thing I do not know how to do. I am waiting on someone to get the dimensions for the pistons. If anyone can tell me how to calculate this I would appreciate it.

    30. 10-04-2006 09:21 PM #66
      Some other options to consider for AEG 20V's:

      -oil jets ought to be tapped, especially for boost...right?
      -all audi 5-valve V6 engines (2.8, 3.0) used 82.5mm bore notched pistons, and they are domed.

      from page 18 of big 20v swap thread:

      I pulled a piston from my 2.8 V6 30V today and took some measurements with pics:

      pisons are 82.455mm, notched on both sides, universal for right and left banks. they are slightly domed, although they appear flat next to stock 1.8t's.

      wristpins came in @ 21mm, same as ABA; rod journals are an astounding 54mm; rod length measured 154 mm.

      Head chambers are different; thus, volumes are too.
      left: 30V head chamber. right: 1.8t head chamber

      enlargeable pics are available here:
      http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...ge=18



      Modified by satchimo at 6:40 PM 10-4-2006


    31. Member twicepardoned's Avatar
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      10-05-2006 09:38 AM #67
      So you're saying that you can pull the pistons from a Audi 5000 and they will work for the 20v conversion?
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    32. 10-05-2006 08:08 PM #68
      Quote, originally posted by twicepardoned »
      So you're saying that you can pull the pistons from a Audi 5000 and they will work for the 20v conversion?

      not even maybe...
      audi V6 5 valve, or dual overhead cam pistons. Even then it's a maybe. I haven't had them measured by a professional or test fitted them in a block yet, but they are 5 valve pistons. they may be somewhat scarce but I know of 2 core blocks (accident write-offs) full of them as well as my own, so maybe they are becoming more common.

      If I find the time this week I may just try those pistons in my AEG. I will likely need to rebush those rods for 21mm wrist pins, but I may try it just to see.


    33. Member twicepardoned's Avatar
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      10-06-2006 09:57 AM #69
      I am confused my your choice of English... "Not even maybe" Are you saying it's impossible?

      I suppose I wish an impossibility was qualified with a reason.
      So is there a reason why these pistons won't work?

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    34. 10-06-2006 10:37 PM #70
      for the lack of clarity...

      audi 5000 pistons (I'm assuming you mean the forged ones from MC turbo motors etc.) are dished to produce 7.8:1 compression in those motors and when using VW 8valve heads. I don't know the cc's off hand, but it's less than the ~43 cc's in a 1.8t/5 valve head.

      Using those pistons with a 20-valve head (or 16v for that matter) will likely drop the compression to 5:1 or 6:1, which is probably too low for combustion to take place.

      sorry for the confusion.


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