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    Thread: Mating a AEB 20V Head onto an ALH TDi Block?

    1. Member Issam Abed's Avatar
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      03-06-2006 01:53 AM #1
      ********
      2009 UPDATE : IF YOU ARE A NEW COMER TO THIS THREAD AND HAVE ANY QUESTIONS ABOUT MATING ANY 20V 1.8T CYLINDER HEAD ONTO A 1.9TDI ALH/BRE SHORT BLOCK YOU HAVE 2 OPTIONS:
      1. Purchase our custom 20V head studs
      2. Helicoil the block with an M12 to M10 insert and use off the shelf ARP M10 offerings for the 20V head.
      Both of these are available through INA Engineering so please click the email in my signature!!
      THANKS!
      *********


      Hey guys,seems I have run myself into a jam and would like some advice as to what would be the best way of mating a 20V head onto a TDi block.I made that jump from the ABA 20V because I no longer needed an Intermediate shaft and to mount the ABA into an A4 would require custom engine mount brackets along with other bs which didnt look too appealing to me.The A4 engine mount brackets bolt fine to the TDi block but it appears I have run myself into a couple of issues.
      * 1. The ALH TDi Block uses a 12mm x 115mm head bolt where as the AWP (same generation block) uses a 10mm.I have emailed raceware in the hopes that they could custom make a set for me so I am keeping my fingers crossed pertaining to that aspect of this project.
      * 2. If you look @ the mage below of the 20V head you will notice that it has only 2 oil return ports on the intake manifold side where as on the TDi block they are 3.I am a bit skeptical to weld a cast iron block internally so below is a poll which I have set up to help me decide which would be more economical to go through with.
      Now I am willing to exhaust all options in order to use the TDi block as it is a 236mm block and is just a much cleaner unit to work with.
      AEB 20V Head:

      1.9 TDi Block on Raceware Headstuds (courtesy of homegrownmotorsports)





      Modified by Issam Abed at 9:40 PM 8-29-2009

    2. Member EvilVento2.oT's Avatar
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      03-06-2006 08:52 AM #2
      as for the aeb head , if you have another "junk head " see if you can drill out the holes in the head ( not realy sure of the tolerances and opening in there , but it seems you could drill and tap , as for the oil galley , block off the one that does not fit and you should be fine

    3. Member BUNNYLOVE's Avatar
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      03-06-2006 09:07 AM #3
      You could just tap it and plug with a pipe thread plug. That way you don't have to weld or deck the block.
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    4. Member sdezego's Avatar
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      03-06-2006 09:53 AM #4
      - Yea, Pipe Tap and Pipe plug with some soft teflon sealant for the Block's oil Hole.
      - As for the Head Studs. You mentioned AEB then you mentioned AWP. Which one are you using? Becuase iirc, the AEB uses 11mm Head bolts where the rest of the 20v's use the 10mm.
      I am not sure there is enough meat or room to go messing with the head to accommotate larger Studs/Nuts. The AEB is very tight in this regard.
      Ideally, a custom set of studs than neck down to accommodate the head would be the best option.
      Shawn
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    5. Member Issam Abed's Avatar
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      03-06-2006 10:16 AM #5
      Quote, originally posted by EvilVento2.oT »
      as for the aeb head , if you have another "junk head " see if you can drill out the holes in the head

      Will give this a shot [IMG]http://**********************/smile/emthup.gif[/IMG]
      Quote, originally posted by EvilVento2.oT »
      but it seems you could drill and tap , as for the oil galley , block off the one that does not fit and you should be fine

      This is what I considered for the oil galley on the left side as there is no oil return at that point on the 20V head,however I am stumped as to what to do for the middle and the oil galley on the right.Anyone have a TDi and 20V head gasket they could compare before I have to go burn more $$?
      Quote, originally posted by sdezego »
      As for the Head Studs. You mentioned AEB then you mentioned AWP. Which one are you using? Becuase iirc, the AEB uses 11mm Head bolts where the rest of the 20v's use the 10mm.

      Using the AEB head (same as AWP ,just big port) but using the TDi block which is the same "family" as the AWP block.
      Quote, originally posted by sdezego »
      Ideally, a custom set of studs than neck down to accommodate the head would be the best option.

      The spacing in the 20V head is so limited.When I searched I read of a guy who tried using 16V ARP studs on the 20V head and managed to get them to work,not sure how true it but when I contacted ARP and got nothing.Raceware was recommended since they sell both the Diesel & 20V head stud kits so maybe they could graft 2 into 1.

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      03-06-2006 12:01 PM #6
      I would check to see what the OD thread on the various types of thread repair inserts is. Perhaps the OD of a 10mm insert is 12mm and you could simply screw them in.
      Helicoil and timesert are 2, I'm sure there are others
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    7. Member sdezego's Avatar
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      03-06-2006 02:45 PM #7
      Quote, originally posted by bobqzzi »
      I would check to see what the OD thread on the various types of thread repair inserts is. Perhaps the OD of a 10mm insert is 12mm and you could simply screw them in.
      Helicoil and timesert are 2, I'm sure there are others

      I almost mentionend Helicoils but didn't. Not becuase they aren't strong enough, but mainly becuase it will likely be hard finding some with the thread length necessary. Two coils in one hole might cause some problems with binding and such and I wouln't do it. If you can find long enough ones, I would consider this a Viable option.

      Shawn
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      My G60 now on MS3 | 4Cyl Torque Plate Rental | 02M Mounts

    8. Member CrazyMonkey's Avatar
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      03-06-2006 04:00 PM #8
      Quote, originally posted by sdezego »
      I almost mentionend Helicoils but didn't. Not becuase they aren't strong enough, but mainly becuase it will likely be hard finding some with the thread length necessary. Two coils in one hole might cause some problems with binding and such and I wouln't do it. If you can find long enough ones, I would consider this a Viable option.

      I almost suggested the same thing. Perhaps a thought would be to drill out and weld the head bolt holes in the block solid, then drill and tap that. Maybe. Custom head bolts are probably a little easier though.
      Eschew obfuscation!

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      03-06-2006 04:57 PM #9
      Quote, originally posted by CrazyMonkey »
      I almost suggested the same thing. Perhaps a thought would be to drill out and weld the head bolt holes in the block solid, then drill and tap that. Maybe. Custom head bolts are probably a little easier though.

      I definitley wouldn;t drill, weld or tap the block. I'd only do the helicoils if the OD thread was 12x1.5 and you could just screw them into the existing holes.
      As for depth- they list various lengths on their site up to 3 diameters, so I think that would be okay
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    10. Member Issam Abed's Avatar
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      03-06-2006 08:40 PM #10
      Quote, originally posted by Wizard-of-OD »
      * 1. The ALH TDi Block uses a 12mm x 115mm head bolt where as the AWP (same generation block) uses a 10mm.I have emailed raceware in the hopes that they could custom make a set for me so I am keeping my fingers crossed pertaining to that aspect of this project.

      I almost flew out my chair when I read this....
      Quote, originally posted by Raceware »
      Thank you for your RACEWARE inquiry.While we do offer custom made aerospace quality engine fasteners, one-off sets are very expensive. Design and engineering costs start at about $2,000USD and go up depending on the complexity of the design. Our hourly consulting rate is $300/hour with a minimum of (4) hours time. All new stud designs require custom made tooling to grind all three diameters of the stud to their final size after heat-treat. The tooling cost is an additional $1000 per stud design. This is a one-time charge and the tooling remains with us.As you can see the cost to supply the (1) set of custom designed studs would easily be in excess of $3500 USD plus shipping. Normal delivery time is 10-14 weeks from receipt of your full advance payment, which is required prior to the beginning of production.Once we receive your purchase order,no order cancellation, design changes, refund or exchange is possible. The studs would have our normal 190,000 PSI tensile strength guarantee and be similar to our typical RACEWARE stud design but produced to drawings that you must approve prior to production.

      Quote, originally posted by bobqzzi »
      Perhaps the OD of a 10mm insert is 12mm and you could simply screw them in.

      Even on raceware's site they list the TDi as a 12mm bolt and the 1.8T as a 10mm bolt.I asked some questions over on a TDi board but they were clueless when it came to gas engines.The only way to confirm any of this was if there was a member on the board who had both a 20V and a TDi block kicking around.

    11. Member Trevahhhh's Avatar
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      03-06-2006 08:55 PM #11
      well i dunno if this will help or not ... i dont see why you couldnt just use the TDI headstuf unless if physically wouldnt fit through the holes on the AEB head
      unless of course the length is too short( it doesnt stick up through the head enough for the nut to grab )
      i just measured a old aeb headbolt i have laying around and from the bottum of the head to the bottum of the threads is roughly 4 and 3/4 inches .
      so if you screwed the studs in all the way .. bakced them out a 1/4 turn (how i was taught to install them) and you have roughly 5 inches sticking out of the block .. i would say you are good
      just my thoughts
      Trever

    12. Member thetwodubheads's Avatar
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      03-07-2006 01:18 PM #12
      I really don't think the tolerance in the casting is so small you couldn't have the head holes taken out 1mm. Really that is only removing .5mm of material. You may even be able to get away from that whole problem if you had a desel stud, heck even just a stock diesel bolt and measured it. You may find it is only ~10.5mm and would fit in the hole with just some minor filing.

    13. Member Issam Abed's Avatar
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      03-07-2006 05:33 PM #13
      Quote, originally posted by thetwodubheads »
      You may even be able to get away from that whole problem if you had a desel stud, heck even just a stock diesel bolt and measured it. You may find it is only ~10.5mm and would fit in the hole with just some minor filing.

      I have been getting some help from Malone and Jettatech pertaining to the TDi block.Hopefully we can come up with a solution...
      I have a scrap head here that I am going to bore out to increase it from 11mm to 12mm (AEB comes with 11mm bolts) then search for replacements from McMaster or something.Anyone want to send me a junk TDi head bolt?

    14. Member transient_analysis's Avatar
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      03-08-2006 02:31 PM #14
      any luck??
      the tdi block seems like a good option as it has a water source (or is it a sink??) on the block... and also has an oil return on the oil pan..
      I'd still vote for drilling out the old head
      stock turbo 1.8t.. damn 2-year CA smog.. :/

    15. 03-09-2006 10:08 AM #15
      i was searching for this block for a while...I was not sure what to do with that front oil galley in the block either, i was contenplating welding/decking the block...
      I worked at a shop where a car had a blown timing belt. The aeb head bolts for some reason didnt even want to fit down a spare aeb head?? it was odd, so the boss threw the head on the drill press and opened up the holes to get it done.
      It was a mostly stock car, it held up for as long as i stuck around, but i dont really know if it would work on a high boost/big power motor....i dont know if i would do it.
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    16. Member CrazyMonkey's Avatar
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      03-09-2006 01:01 PM #16
      Quote, originally posted by transient_analysis »
      I'd still vote for drilling out the old head

      I thought about this some yesterday too. If you enlarge the holes in the head to just accept the 12mm bolt, you are actually spreading out the clamping load from the bolt head over a larger area (granted not by much), so I don't see how you would run into issues by doing that unless there simply isn't room (water jackets and whatnot)... which I doubt. What about putting 12mm studs in the block? At least your torque specs will be more accurate that way, and with a 12mm nut, you may spread the clamping load out further than the 12mm bolt head if it fits.
      Eschew obfuscation!

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      03-09-2006 01:49 PM #17
      Quote, originally posted by CrazyMonkey »
      I thought about this some yesterday too. If you enlarge the holes in the head to just accept the 12mm bolt, you are actually spreading out the clamping load from the bolt head over a larger area (granted not by much), so I don't see how you would run into issues by doing that unless there simply isn't room (water jackets and whatnot)... which I doubt. What about putting 12mm studs in the block? At least your torque specs will be more accurate that way, and with a 12mm nut, you may spread the clamping load out further than the 12mm bolt head if it fits.

      The issue is the area the bolt head bears on- it is very small -essesially the OD of the bolt head . So there is no way a stude will work unless it comes with the special cylindrical nuts like the racewares. My concern with the stock 12mm bolts is the OD of the head- I don't know, but suspect it is larger than those of the 10/11mm bolts. If so, you would have to bore out the well in which it sits with a mill..which would be a huge pain, and there may not be room.
      You could turn down the OD of a stock bolt head, but that reduces the bearing surface significantly.
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    18. Member CrazyMonkey's Avatar
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      03-09-2006 02:30 PM #18
      Quote, originally posted by bobqzzi »
      The issue is the area the bolt head bears on- it is very small -essesially the OD of the bolt head . So there is no way a stude will work unless it comes with the special cylindrical nuts like the racewares. My concern with the stock 12mm bolts is the OD of the head- I don't know, but suspect it is larger than those of the 10/11mm bolts. If so, you would have to bore out the well in which it sits with a mill..which would be a huge pain, and there may not be room.
      You could turn down the OD of a stock bolt head, but that reduces the bearing surface significantly.

      I haven't had the valve cover off our AEB, so I'm not entirely sure how the bolts sit in there. I figured if it was anything like the 16V head attachment, then it wouldn't be a big deal at all for the larger head on the 12mm bolt to fit in, and you can get studs and regular nuts to work with a 16V head from what I've seen, so I thought it would be worth a shot. Even if you did have to bore out the area where the bolt head sits a little, it's not going to be much and any decent machinist should be able to take care of it. Hell, I had to helicoil one of the cam bearing cap studs on my 16V and I was able to git 'r dun with a hand drill.
      Eschew obfuscation!

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    19. 03-10-2006 10:29 PM #19
      The tdi is 12mm the regular 1.6 and 1.9 TD headstuds are the same as the TDI ones. You can also use headstuds from arp originally from the ford cosworth 4 cyl engines.

    20. Member Issam Abed's Avatar
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      03-17-2006 01:37 AM #20
      Another option that Rodney Huss pointed out to me are these:

      Just a bit worried about using these in a high boost motor.
      Quote, originally posted by Passenger Performance »
      You can also use headstuds from arp originally from the ford cosworth 4 cyl engines.

      Dave do you have a 16V or 20V head knocking around that you can put on one of the TDi blocks?How about an old TDi headgasket?

    21. 03-17-2006 10:13 AM #21
      I have to ask.........why is it you want to use a TDI block ???? other than the engine mount bracket fitting, and it being .1cc larger than the 1.8.


      Modified by VeeeDubb at 3:15 PM 3-17-2006

    22. 03-17-2006 10:20 AM #22
      Because the alh is basically the perfect block to use when wanting to increase rod length while keeping many mk4 motor characteristics
      People used to use the ABA for 20v swaps, this ALH tdi motor has an internal waterpump (which the ABA does not) it has all the oil drain plugs (the ABA does not) and its chain driven oil pump along with a few other small things that makes it worth while. Since it is a tall block and utilizes 159mm rods instead of all the other mk4 blocks with 144mm you can run say a eurospec 100mm crank with an 83mm piston and have a 2.2L 20v motor that can do 8500rpm with a solid lifter head. I think that’s pretty awesome.
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    23. Member Issam Abed's Avatar
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      03-17-2006 04:15 PM #23
      Quote, originally posted by VeeeDubb »
      why is it you want to use a TDI block

      Ability to use 159mm rods and not have a crappy rod ratio.

    24. 03-17-2006 04:25 PM #24
      Has this been done before or is this the first time ???

      I was under the impression the european ALH and an NA ALH have the same crank???
      Sounds like a neat project [IMG]http://**********************/smile/emthup.gif[/IMG]

    25. Member Issam Abed's Avatar
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      03-22-2006 01:26 AM #25
      Quote, originally posted by VeeeDubb »
      Has this been done before or is this the first time

      Most of the junk I do has not been done before
      Quote, originally posted by EdsGTI20VT »
      * this ALH tdi motor has an internal waterpump (which the ABA does not)
      * it has all the oil drain plugs (the ABA does not) and its chain driven oil pump along with a few other small things that makes it worth while. * Since it is a tall block and utilizes 159mm rods instead of all the other mk4 blocks with 144mm you can run say a eurospec 100mm crank

      Yup thats pretty much sums it up [IMG]http://**********************/smile/emthup.gif[/IMG]
      Anybody had any luck with comparing anything?

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