Euro GTI Oil Cooler Mods

[suburbangeorge]

I have seen several references including here on Vortex that the GTI internal thermostat opens at too high a temperature, 110C (230F). It is often suggested that early Porsche 911s used the same design thermostat which opens at 90C (194F). This seemed a little early to me. Yesterday I finally took the time to examine the thermostat on an Audi 5000 turbo. This is also the same design thermostat but guess what? It is 100C (212F). Besides being right in the middle, I have never seen one of these cars where someone has bothered to remove the oil cooler. I am always looking for these cars because they are a source for Girling 60 calipers for 11" brake conversions. So that means you should be able to find one for probably little or no money. I can't imagine anything from a 911 being cheap.

Another thought on these coolers. I have bought a few of these from Germany and only one had all of the mounting cushions on it. I took the part #s to VW. The numbers are good but the items are discontinued. I have found some likely substitutions. At the top you need two rubber cushions with machine threaded studs sticking out of each side. Some 1980s BMW 325s have a similar pair of cushions used as the top mounting for the radiator. The BMW ones are more breakable than the VW ones since each stud is applied to the center cushion and can be pulled off. In the VW design there is one continuous stud with the bushing applied to the middle of the stud. If you get them off unbroken, they should be fine. Also the rubber portion is about 3/16" thicker on the BMW one which will move the cooler 3/16" towards the engine. At the bottom you need a cone shaped all rubber piece with a hole in the middle so it can slide over a pin at the bottom of the VW bracket. I found a box of unknown use attatched to a bracket on the driver's side inner fender of turbo volvos. This box mounts on three cone shaped rubber feet. You have to sacrifice the mounting on the box to save the feet. Once you have one of the feet, cut the cone shaped part to about 1/2" long from the shoulder and drill a hole for the pin. I used a #4 (.209") drill bit. Now you can mount that thing with no metal to metal contact.

[suburbangeorge]

Repost

[suburbangeorge]

[Urwrstntmare]

Old but good, thanks!

[fwdvw]

I have the Audi cooler and the GTI too and they do share lots of things. I am not sure what the temp is for the GTI but it might very well be the same as the Audi. The Temp range is good to know, I may try to get one.

I am not following his info' on the mounting bushings. The cooler is just an Air-cooled VW oil cooler and the rubber seals are air-cooled also.

The O-ring and cover are the same except the Audi needs to be drilled and tapped for the Temp sender.

[suburbangeorge]

I have the Audi cooler and the GTI too and they do share lots of things. I am not sure what the temp is for the GTI but it might very well be the same as the Audi. The Temp range is good to know, I may try to get one.

I am not following his info' on the mounting bushings. The cooler is just an Air-cooled VW oil cooler and the rubber seals are air-cooled also.

The O-ring and cover are the same except the Audi needs to be drilled and tapped for the Temp sender.

I'm sorry but you are not correct. Covers are different(Audi 034 115 423 Scirocco 067 115 423). Look at your picture. There are four cover bolts on each. On the Audi, lines between opposing bolts would cross at a right angle. Look at the left most of the three covers. It's a Scirocco. Two lines would cross at other than right angle. What really confuses me is the "O" rings are different(WHY?) 067 115 427A vs 034 115 423. Audi thermostat is 100 degrees C. Scirocco is 110. Both interchange.

[weejunGL]

i've got the MK1 GTI oilcooler on my G60. and are you sure it opens at 110c? i regularly saw temperatures of about 120c before i put the setup on, and now i'm about 100c max when pushing it


and, an additional question, is it possible to aquire a thermostat with lower opening temp or modify the stock one?

[Butcher]

From my understanding, the number on the thermostat is the temp that it is fully open, not when it starts to open. So, I think it is possible for your temp to drop that much.

Anything can be modified, but I think an oil thermostat is one of them that is not worth it. I would say, No, it cannot be modified.

[suburbangeorge]

i've got the MK1 GTI oilcooler on my G60. and are you sure it opens at 110c? i regularly saw temperatures of about 120c before i put the setup on, and now i'm about 100c max when pushing it


and, an additional question, is it possible to aquire a thermostat with lower opening temp or modify the stock one?

Did you read the thread? The answer to your question is in my original post. Audi one is 100 degrees. Porsche is 90 degrees. I have the Audi for $30 shipped.

[weejunGL]

Did you read the thread? The answer to your question is in my original post. Audi one is 100 degrees. Porsche is 90 degrees. I have the Audi for $30 shipped.

to be honest... i just lightly read the post

[ny_fam]

100c- 110c are good oil operating temps, that just above water boiling point. And that's good I think. To low temp and you never boil off condensation built up in the oil.
Oil is heavier than water so little bits of condensation doesn't get picked up by the oil pump.

The temp sensor on those flanges - is that measuring the oil temp of oil leaving the pan and going into the oil passages or measuring the oil temp of oil returning to the pan?

I know that GAP sells a low temp coolant thermostat that is helpful in keeping engine temps down in addition to a external oil cooler.
Cheers
ny_fam

[ps2375]

The only real mod I want to make to my "euro" cooler setup is to ditch the "factory" heat exchanger mounted on the stand for more conventional 7-10 row exchanger that I can mount on the front of the radiator for better airflow. I have made the openings in the grill for the airflow to allow for air with the stock mount, but when not moving there is no airflow and with the radiator mounted exchanger, there is airflow when the rad fan is on and a much greater surface area and airflow at all times for much better heat transfer. The current heat exchanger would be OK if there was the kind of airflow present that is available to it in the air-cooled motor, as it has the forced air flow of the fan at all times and it increases with load(rpm).

[suburbangeorge]

The only real mod I want to make to my "euro" cooler setup is to ditch the "factory" heat exchanger mounted on the stand for more conventional 7-10 row exchanger that I can mount on the front of the radiator for better airflow. I have made the openings in the grill for the airflow to allow for air with the stock mount, but when not moving there is no airflow and with the radiator mounted exchanger, there is airflow when the rad fan is on and a much greater surface area and airflow at all times for much better heat transfer. The current heat exchanger would be OK if there was the kind of airflow present that is available to it in the air-cooled motor, as it has the forced air flow of the fan at all times and it increases with load(rpm).

The "euro" coolers are pretty rare and sell for good money. You should sell your whole set up and buy a new "sandwhich plate" set up. If you try to modify your existing, you'll only save the flange. Radiator will be replaced and hoses will be too short so they'll require replacement also.

The other thing that you might do is look at your whole cooling system. If oil temp is going up when sitting idling and there is no load on the engine it may be that coolant cooling is inadequate. When I went from the stock 90 engine HP to 120 WHP on my Cabby, I had two issues. High oil temp under load(full throttle uphill on a hot day) was cured by my euro oil cooler. High coolant temp in traffic or stopped on a hot day was solved by changing the radiator. I found a brass radiator designed for a mid '80s Jetta turbo diesel which fit right in. It uses the same lower pin mounts, ends at the same point on the passenger's side but is longer toward the driver's side without hitting the battery. Car runs cool under all conditions now.

[ps2375]

Yup, I was planning new hoses with the cooler. I like the thermo flange as I also have the "other" factory cooler installed which works very well in the winter to warm the oil.

Don't worry, I was planning on keeping all the pieces, so if I ever decide to sell it, it'll all be there. And that will only happen if I go with an ABA block or the car gets killed.

[fwdvw]

I'm sorry but you are not correct. Covers are different(Audi 034 115 423 Scirocco 067 115 423). Look at your picture. There are four cover bolts on each. On the Audi, lines between opposing bolts would cross at a right angle. Look at the left most of the three covers. It's a Scirocco. Two lines would cross at other than right angle. What really confuses me is the "O" rings are different(WHY?) 067 115 427A vs 034 115 423. Audi thermostat is 100 degrees C. Scirocco is 110. Both interchange.

Good eye, i just checked and the covers are ever so slightly off. As for the O-ring gasket, the difference is the Audi O ring is HNBR rubber (green) but the VW O ring is just black rubber. The Audi O ring still works, i used it on the one in my car to fix my leak. Is the Audi O ring still available?

[suburbangeorge]

Good eye, i just checked and the covers are ever so slightly off. As for the O-ring gasket, the difference is the Audi O ring is HNBR rubber (green) but the VW O ring is just black rubber. The Audi O ring still works, i used it on the one in my car to fix my leak. Is the Audi O ring still available?

As of last year, the Audi one was still available but I would swear that I tried one and it was larger. There's a cooler equiped Audi at one of the nearby Pick n Pulls. I'll go check it again

Went to VAGCat and there are different part #s. Audi: 034 115 427, VW: 067 115 427A

Even though the first three digits usually indicate the car, when the parts are the same, the number is the same regardless of what it's installed in. VAGcat gives 113 117 021X as the part # for the cooler radiator on both the Audi and GTI. I know for a fact that they are the same.

So, I'll probably still check the O-ring but I'm pretty sure that they are different.

[fwdvw]

As of last year, the Audi one was still available but I would swear that I tried one and it was larger. There's a cooler equiped Audi at one of the nearby Pick n Pulls. I'll go check it again

Went to VAGCat and there are different part #s. Audi: 034 115 427, VW: 067 115 427A

Even though the first three digits usually indicate the car, when the parts are the same, the number is the same regardless of what it's installed in. VAGcat gives 113 117 021X as the part # for the cooler radiator on both the Audi and GTI. I know for a fact that they are the same.

So, I'll probably still check the O-ring but I'm pretty sure that they are different.

What ever you decide, I think AutoTech still has or had a few of the proper O rings.

[twinair]

100c- 110c are good oil operating temps, that just above water boiling point. And that's good I think. To low temp and you never boil off condensation built up in the oil.
Oil is heavier than water so little bits of condensation doesn't get picked up by the oil pump.

The temp sensor on those flanges - is that measuring the oil temp of oil leaving the pan and going into the oil passages or measuring the oil temp of oil returning to the pan?

I know that GAP sells a low temp coolant thermostat that is helpful in keeping engine temps down in addition to a external oil cooler.
Cheers
ny_fam

Hmmm. On my planet oil is lighter than water.

[WaterWheels]

Yeah, I was going to let that one slide but I live on the same planet as you do I guess. Somehow I have a feeling he never had to drain the oil on an engine that had a bad internal coolant leak on the head gasket.

Guess while I'm here I'll add the comment I also overlooked about sender location and which oil it is reading. Just how does the oil get back to the oil pan? Gravity would be the real correct answer I guess. To relate that to the question though, the sensor is reading oil temperature as it leaves the oil pump. All oil returns to the pan via gravity as it gets squeezed out of the bearings and things that it lubricates. No returning oil passes through any passage ways in the block or head, unless you consider the oil return holes to be passages, and is under no pressure.

[teknikALLEN]

I found a few apparent sources for the euro cooler radiator as they appear to be an air cooled 1971-79 VW Type 1, Type 2 -71, Doghouse style radiator (5 plate & 7 plate).

The thermostatic oil filter adapter part is the tough find, I can find them with out the thermostat with the send and return in various positions, but that would not work for this application (4 season road driving).

Are there different names for this part? I see references to "oil pump cover", "thermostatic oil filter adapter" and "oil filter stand"....

What is the proper name & VW part # for the "thermostatic oil filter adapter, oil filter stand"

All the seals are also listed.

I did not make the call to see if it they were available, but I would suggest looking at air cooled Type 2 VW parts online...

[weejunGL]

http://www.ebay.de/itm/VW-Golf-1-GTI...item3cc8c7775a

http://www.ebay.de/itm/VW-Golf-1-GTI...item4ab9d923b6

http://www.ebay.de/itm/VW-Golf-1-2-G...item19d32a65ed

http://www.ebay.de/itm/VW-Golf-1-2-G...item19d32c40b2

some of them are probably willing to ship to the US if you ask nicely

these are examples from my search:

http://www.ebay.de/sch/i.html?_sacat...lkuhler&_rdc=1

[teknikALLEN]

[teknikALLEN]

weejunGL, I contacted the German seller of the GTi oil cooler and he responded quickly with a shipping price only to pull all his items the next day.... I guess despite telling me he would sell to me in the US, he got cold feet? Strange.

[weejunGL]

germans are a bit wierd

i've had some of the same problems before, but always managed to get what i want (i've got some german friends which can help me out)

many germans don't want to talk/learn english, and they often don't like shipping/selling crap outside the EU zone (norway, where i live is not a part of the EU zone)


but, it usually goes OK

try to get ahold of another seller?

[teknikALLEN]

I have done lots of buying overseas through ebay, and also was part of a 100 Kilo group import of rare and extinct African cichlids from Lake Victoria. That took a while as the fish were collected from a conservation fish club all over the EU then a friggin volcano almost ruined the deal because the hold up required two weeks of hold over in a guys house; but all went super in the end.

OK, so not so the German was not so weird. The gentleman actually "retooled" so to speak. He posted a boat load of stuff, mostly used oil coolers & thermostatic flanges as it seems to be his specialty. He posted one specifically for me with a lower price by and the DHL "worldwide" shipping of 47 Euros.

I sent a wire transfer, which my one credit union associated with Cornell University botched the transfer. Who knew that a credit union who deals with all sorts of foreign exchange students and their money, would be so clueless in sending money overseas. I guess they usually receive the money as it is sent to the students from overseas...

Luckily, I use an other local credit union that were very confidant and successfully and quickly did the deed with none of the hassle of "black ink only" $50 plus dollars in wire transfer and other fees... blah blah... did cost $40 for the transfer with no hidden fees.

So the cost with shipping came to $161.99 US dollars.

He should get the money by Monday and in a few weeks, I should have my OEM oil cooler w/ mounting bracket, thermostatic flange and rubber lines.

In communicating with him I also let him know that I will be sharing this info with other friends through the Vortex and suggested he open a PayPal account to smooth things over for foreign sales.... and he has. So here is his "Meine eBay Welt: toyoschrauber (749)" :
http://myworld.ebay.de/toyoschrauber...id=p4340.l2559

I will keep start a new thread and keep it updated, sorry for the hijack... thanks all!

[teknikALLEN]

So to redirect back to the thread topic:

What are the part numbers for the various thermostats:
Porsche: 90 degrees C part # ?
Audi: 100 degrees C part # ?
Scirocco: 110 degrees C part # ?

Thank you again...

[suburbangeorge]

So to redirect back to the thread topic:

What are the part numbers for the various thermostats:
Porsche: 90 degrees C part # ?
Audi: 100 degrees C part # ?
Scirocco: 110 degrees C part # ?

Thank you again...

For part #s of the Audi and VW ones join the VagCat boards http://www.vagcat.com/index.php?http://www.vagcat.com/ and look them up. VW will be "oil cooler" on Golf 1 engine section. You'll find the Audi one on '80s and '90s turbo cars. For the Porsche part you'll need to hunt around on Pelican Parts http://www.pelicanparts.com/.

If you or anyone else wants the 100 deg C Audi one, I'll send you one for $30 shipped.

[suburbangeorge]

https://www.xoom.com/xoom-refer-a-friend-program

I have done lots of buying overseas through ebay, and also was part of a 100 Kilo group import of rare and extinct African cichlids from Lake Victoria. That took a while as the fish were collected from a conservation fish club all over the EU then a friggin volcano almost ruined the deal because the hold up required two weeks of hold over in a guys house; but all went super in the end.

OK, so not so the German was not so weird. The gentleman actually "retooled" so to speak. He posted a boat load of stuff, mostly used oil coolers & thermostatic flanges as it seems to be his specialty. He posted one specifically for me with a lower price by and the DHL "worldwide" shipping of 47 Euros.

I sent a wire transfer, which my one credit union associated with Cornell University botched the transfer. Who knew that a credit union who deals with all sorts of foreign exchange students and their money, would be so clueless in sending money overseas. I guess they usually receive the money as it is sent to the students from overseas...

Luckily, I use an other local credit union that were very confidant and successfully and quickly did the deed with none of the hassle of "black ink only" $50 plus dollars in wire transfer and other fees... blah blah... did cost $40 for the transfer with no hidden fees.

So the cost with shipping came to $161.99 US dollars.

He should get the money by Monday and in a few weeks, I should have my OEM oil cooler w/ mounting bracket, thermostatic flange and rubber lines.

In communicating with him I also let him know that I will be sharing this info with other friends through the Vortex and suggested he open a PayPal account to smooth things over for foreign sales.... and he has. So here is his "Meine eBay Welt: toyoschrauber (749)" :
http://myworld.ebay.de/toyoschrauber...id=p4340.l2559

I will keep start a new thread and keep it updated, sorry for the hijack... thanks all!

Ran into the same issue from my bank when I wanted to transfer money to Germany. They're set up for large transfers where $40 doesn't mean anything. Got to learn to search around the web. Found Xoom https://www.xoom.com/xoom-refer-a-friend-program . Fee for transfer was $5.

[suburbangeorge]

germans are a bit wierd

i've had some of the same problems before, but always managed to get what i want (i've got some german friends which can help me out)

many germans don't want to talk/learn english, and they often don't like shipping/selling crap outside the EU zone (norway, where i live is not a part of the EU zone)


but, it usually goes OK

try to get ahold of another seller?

"Germans are a bit wierd"? What would you do if you were selling something on ebay and a message arrived in another language? If you want to buy from Germany learn German or find a free on-line translation service http://www.freetranslation.com/ . You need to compose your message carefully, no misspellings, no ambiguous terms. I never use the word "ship". I use "deliver". I offer to pay the 3% PayPal fee. (Germany or the European Union has a transfer service at their banks where you can send money electronically for little or no fee. That's why a lot of sellers don't take PayPal). I link to Deutsche Post(DHL)http://www.dhl.de/de/paket/privatkun...n-amerika.html to show them that they can send it from their local postal service. It's you that wants the favor so you need to make the favor as easy to grant as possible.

[teknikALLEN]

Too much good info in this thread now... not too much snark

I got my set up a couple days ago from Germany and the condition is amazing... the doghouse is mint (but these are still available) with the mounting bracket and rubber mount thingy on the spur and even the hoses look fantastic... the flange end seal is the weakest link so far as I can see.

I will post more here (sorry for the hijack, Sub George): http://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...il-cooler-quot

[teknikALLEN]

Thought I would add this from ETKA:

[teknikALLEN]

#8; Just looks like an "O" ring.... nothing special. The one in my flange is hard and shaped like the groove.... just old and oil/heat damaged I guess.

[suburbangeorge]

#8 actually is an "O" ring. I spent a lot of time trying to find that shaped seal. Like you say it's hard and taken the shape of the grove.

[ps2375]

what are the actual dimensions of that O-ring? I would like to know, as I had to stop an oil leak there on mine once. I know I used a small amount of sealant, but I don't remember if I "made" and O-ring to fit that or just re-used the old one. And I'm not going to take it off to look until I have something else to replace it with.