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    Thread: VR6 12v engineering project >> 275hp

    1. 05-17-2006 10:33 PM #1
      Hopefully that title grabbed some attention. We are looking for anyone who has ever managed to break the 250WHP/280CHP barrier with a 12v VR6.

      If anyone can provide links or references to any tuners or teams who have managed to better these numbers in ANY sort of NA configuration we'd like to know about it.

      Also, If any engineers with access to CFD (or similar) tools would be interested in helping out with an interesting project we have, please email us.


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      05-18-2006 10:33 AM #2
      Bill, check around for Bernd's 3.1L rabbit. That engine has had various top end set ups, both hydro and solid. I would contact him or Techtonics Tuning as Collin has a lot of time invested in the build as well as behind the wheel. You can talk to Anthony Dowd about his stock 2.8L bottom end engine in his race car. Also, WRD has been claiming high output from their car as well. All three mentioned are at or above 225whp with a 12v head.

      Good luck with the project.


    3. Member BennyB's Avatar
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      05-18-2006 06:06 PM #3
      i have access to ricardo wave, fluent and unigraphics NX 4. IM me

    4. Member BennyB's Avatar
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      05-18-2006 07:53 PM #4
      ricardo is mainly 1-dimensional flow dynamics, and is useful for runner length tuning, power output estimation and temperature effects.

      fluent is good for port bowl shape and plenum design. I think it can do the mixing as well.


    5. 05-19-2006 09:55 AM #5
      I work for Ricardo and know the product manager for the relevant software. What you guys actually after ?

    6. 05-19-2006 09:27 PM #6
      hmm I had "email for replies" set to on but it didnt work or I would have replied to some of this already.

      OK I'll reply from the top....

      >> race car?

      Yes. In addition to our SCCA engine programs We're developing a few different engines to compete in the new NASA configurations. NASA has changed to a power to weight formula where you can run almost anything you want. NA, Turbo, SC, you name it. We're especially interested in developing VW engines to compete in the GTS Challenge. A series currently dominated by Porsche and BMW. We're doing more than just VR6 btw.

      >> ive only heard of a few breaking 200

      WheelHP I assume you mean. 200 crank is easy. We're putting down just shy of 200 crank HP on a stock engine with only a CAI, custom ECU tune, careful blueprint, balance and bump in compression.

      >> How long do you think that motor would last with power like that.

      250 WHP will have very high compression (~14:1) so it will be little hard on the rod bearings. But it's still only 250. Should not be a grenade by any means.

      >> Didn't EIP claim their 3.1L's were good for 301hp?

      I's like to see that data if anyone can dig it up.

      >> Bill, check around for Bernd's 3.1L rabbit.

      Yup. I spent 45min. on the phone with the engine builder of that car the other night. Chris is a real nice guy. He gave us some good pointers and backed up a lot of what we already were thinking.

      That motor in fact is what this project is all about! They kept trying different configs and could never get past the 250WHP wall. They swapped intakes, heads, exhuasts, etc etc and nothing woudl get it past 250WHP. We want to break the wall. If we can find the problem, then we should be able to go WAY past it. There are 3L full race motors making 400CHP that are based on production castings.

      >> You can talk to Anthony Dowd about his stock 2.8L...

      Heard a lot about him. Where is he?

      >> i have access to ricardo wave, fluent and unigraphics NX 4. IM me

      Now we're talkin! IM on the way.

      >> 275 crank iam sure it can happen. basically thats dowd with a 3.1 high compression block.

      No. It's not that simple. Bernd's 3.1L was 14:1, with big everything and 288* cams. (cause 300* didnt work) There is a reason the VR6 has a problem getting past 250WHP and we intend to find out why. Since many of you have done basic tuning and testing of components, it's time we change gears and apply some modern engineering tools to investigate what's going on.

      >>Also don't forget thermal coating any parts

      BTDT. It helps but it's not the answer to the big question.

      >> Also try custom cams

      Cam design may play a roll in this. Our engine man has designed a VR6 cam that is a bit different than most out there. If it works, we can have CAT do a bunch for the masses. However most of you probably wont want a 300* cam that wont idle

      >> Eurospec sells 3.2L blocks

      But they dont build race motors. Just bolting parts together (No offense) is fine for a street motor, but we do our own engine building for a reason.

      >> I work for Ricardo and know the product manager for the relevant software. What you guys actually after ?

      Help ;-) I'll be IM'ing you too.

      >> why a 12v when the 24v is out?

      Good question. 2 answers. A) It's a challenge. Something that nobody has managed to do although many have tried. B) We all know the 12v VR6 is cheap and plentiful and if we can break the wall, then I'm sure many will be happy.

      >> the head doesn't allow for valves a whole lot bigger then stock

      I call the readily available +3mm valves quite a bit larger but we're not sure they need to be that big.

      This is not going to be something we pull off in 3 weeks time. This is going to take all summer at least. We'll be posting our results on our website and occasionally in here.

      If we had a real budget for this we'd just go to Mahle Motorsports (ex Cosworth) and say "fix it", but this is a lower priority experiment. So if any engineers out there (students?) want to help out by loaning us a little brain power and CPU time, we'd love to hear from you.


      Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 6:28 PM 5-19-2006


    7. 05-19-2006 09:35 PM #7
      Oh, PS - a short runner "log" intake is not the answer. While a log or ITB setup may be in our final solution, that alone has been tried and again didnt break the 250 mark.

      resonance, reversion, harmonics, pressure waves... the answre is in there somewhere.


    8. 05-20-2006 10:19 AM #8
      Sounds like a great project. Def. hook up with the Ricardo guy as that may be the best way to uncover why the engine can't get past the 250 mark.

      You can have him build you some flow models of the intake and exhaust system to see if you can uncover a flow problem either on
      the intake or exhaust side. This can def. help you tremendously with
      any porting you plan on doing.

      Not that you want to spend all the research money but the CAE tools can even help you with the combustion and injection modeling. You
      could design your own piston combustion surface and play around with different injector locations...But now you are talking big money!

      I do a lot of FEA stress analysis, but have done some CFD work in the past, all for auto manufacturs so I'd be happy to share anything I know. The Ricardo connection is a great source though so make sure to get foyboy to help you out.


    9. 05-20-2006 03:54 PM #9
      i know of a secret company building stroker cranks... they only have one left which i was planning on buying. the block is a 3.0L and the crank makes up for .2L displacement so it will be a 3.2L. custom crank, custom rods, and custom pistons. you could go with a bigger piston like a custom 85mm 13-1 compression deal and have a 3.4L 12v....

      he told me they made 240whp on pump gas with a schrick intake manifold and a big valve head. i dont know if its true for sure yet. i dont know if i want to drop a little over 4 grand on a N/A short block though.

      give me a call if you want to collaborate. 732 407 3384 keith-


    10. 05-21-2006 05:19 PM #10
      Does anyone have access to a 3D scanner who could produce a point cloud of a VR6 intake if we were to provide them with a physical cross section of the ports?

      Can anyone provide any CAD files or drawings (links?) of 12v VR6 cylinder heads?


    11. Member BennyB's Avatar
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      05-21-2006 05:39 PM #11
      this is what I already had scanned:

      When I did these, I was only concerned with external dimensions. I'll see if I can get the CMM again to scan the ports.



      Modified by BennyB at 5:49 PM 5-21-2006


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      05-23-2006 09:53 AM #12
      Quote, originally posted by Bildon Motorsport »
      Heard a lot about him. Where is he?

      Sorry, I didn't see that you posted this earlier.
      Anthony's screen name is 95GLX.
      I know a great deal about this car but it is just best to contact him.

      Looking forward to seeing how your project pans out.


    13. 05-23-2006 11:06 AM #13
      Thanks BillyVR6 I shot him an IM.

      To all, this is going to be a long project. We will not be able to update this thread on a frequent basis. It would be great if we could keep the forum "noise" level to a minimum so that in the end the thread has more substance than most.

      Yah those Atomic heads make good power for a reason


    14. 05-23-2006 11:19 AM #14
      We will be doing research and modelling through the next few months. After our modelling and analysis has yielded enough data we will then begin to design parts and finally we will begin machining and assembly. I would not expect to see an engine on the dyno for at least 3 months probably longer.

      Anyone here have any experience or access to the 4stHEAD software package?


    15. 05-23-2006 09:55 PM #15
      Quote, originally posted by billyVR6 »

      If not, then yeah... 270whp has already been had from a bored out naturally aspirated 24v.

      Who was that and was that on a 2wd or 4wd dyno?

      Isn't 251.5 WHP on 4wd dyno pretty good for a N/A 3.2, 24V on pump gas?

      As far as the 12 valve project and over 250 WHP/275 crank, where to start?

      I think my best dyno was 229 WHP, maybe 231, I really don't remember, have to do some archive searches. I think the last time i dynoed was March 2005 at NGP when i was home on leave and finally swapped the bottom end out with another 2.8L.

      I didn't have the right fuel with me either so the dyno session was just to make sure I had a clean map and to find my shift points. I went directly to the track after that!

      Mods at the time:
      Stock 2.8L bottom end.
      Schrick 268 cams.
      CCH big valve head-big intake, big exhaust, mm?, lots of porting.
      Stock exhaust manifold, never port matched as it should be.
      OEM crank pulley.
      DTA Fast Pro 8 engine management.
      42/40mm ITB's by Grant Motorsports.
      MKIV H.G.?, I might have used the carboard one, have to look.
      VP Red race gas!
      5w-30 Mobil one oil!
      Bosch FR8LDC spark plugs!
      Ford blue top injectors, 19lbs i believe.

      That's it!

      So, i need to make 19-21 more horsepower for you! I have a few ideas that are pretty darn simple and will probably work. I never did get the best tune on this set up, 235-240 should be achievable staying with the 2.8. Heck, just a blueprint/balance should net half that.

      What is the wall with the 12 valve? The fact that no one ever had or was willing to really put the money, time or effort into really developing this engine beyond bolt-ons and things that can be marketed easily!

      anthony


    16. 05-24-2006 11:45 AM #16

      >> the pistons and connecting rods (and other parts if you are really anal)

      Replace "anal" with "professional"

      >> So all the rods would have the same mass

      Yes, all components are balanced so that the engine spins freely with little vibration and reduced harmonics. In addition all components are checked for dimensional accuracy (blueprinting). Machining everything to optimize the function, efficiency and therefore power output.

      >> Never heard of anyone paying for this to be done

      Every real race engine is balanced and if it is a stock based engine it is blueprinted.

      >> Hence why noone with a VW these days seems to do it

      There are hundreds of VWs racing and rallying in the US alone that have properly built engines.


    17. Member Halpem's Avatar
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      05-27-2006 12:28 PM #17
      Quote, originally posted by Bildon Motorsport »

      Anyone here have any experience or access to the 4stHEAD software package?

      Do you have any software where in mind? I have access to getting almost any software due to where I work, I notice the UK has many companies doing or atleast sell it.

      I was looking at this one , http://www.optimum-power.com/blair.htm

      http://www.directopedia.org/di...shtml



      Modified by Halpem at 6:33 PM 5-29-2006

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    18. 05-31-2006 01:52 AM #18
      Quote, originally posted by ojnrice »
      I have mine blueprinted and balanced bith times, i would never put an engine together that wasn't I will have to post my dyno results whe i get my chip. i am hoping for 240. i have

      12.5:1 CR
      3.0
      268 cams
      beyond bigvalve head 35.8 ex 42 in
      2.5 catless exhaust
      A/C deleted
      lightened crank pulley
      MK4 Head gasket
      Titanium Retainers
      Lightweight lifters.
      etc...
      way to much money
      and to make sure I hit 300whp
      100 direct port NOS
      will be using EIP3.0 cam chip, because they are the only people that make one, and I am not a fan of EIP.

      I hope you clay this engine before you run it. Also, with all the work done and the fact that you plan on running the spray on this set up I would go stand-a-lone for engine management and would even think twice about it. Otherwise, this will be another built VR6 motor that will end up on the garage floor with bent valves or burnt piston rings!

      Anthony


    19. 05-31-2006 08:48 AM #19
      Quote, originally posted by EuroVeeDub »

      What does it mean to "clay" the engine?

      it means once everything is built, since the only way to achieve high power is with high compression. high compression = small clearance for valve to piston(due to the redesign of the piston). people put clay on the pistons and assemble the motor/cams and all. and spin the motor to see where the valve is hitting to make sure there is enough clearance between valves and piston.

      i hope that helps you understand.

      Racing Improves the breed..
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    20. 05-31-2006 10:28 AM #20
      >> 12.5:1 CR

      Custom pistons? or did you machine the tops off the "close side" ?

      BTW, we plan to get a 2.9L bone stock motor with our custom Motronic tune onto the the dyno again this week to verify our earlier numbers. Will publish them after the test. The custom Motronic VR6 programs are doing well.


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      05-31-2006 11:03 AM #21
      Quote, originally posted by ojnrice »
      will be using EIP3.0 cam chip, because they are the only people that make one.

      Not True.

      I could easily tune that set-up. (IM me for references)

      Trouble is, most folks want/expect a ~canned tune to
      run a custom set-up.

      -Jeff

      UnitedMotorsport.net
      Email UnitedMotorsport
      Funny how launch control and NLS were gimmicks when Matt bought it to med9.
      Now others are using it to make people think the sun shines out of their 4$$.

    22. 05-31-2006 11:56 AM #22
      Quote, originally posted by Bildon Motorsport »
      >> 12.5:1 CR

      Custom pistons? or did you machine the tops off the "close side" ?

      custom Ross Racing Pistons

      12.5:1 is not that high, i did not need to clay, if you go above 13 that is when you start to get a big dome.


    23. 05-31-2006 03:50 PM #23
      >> I could easily tune that set-up. (IM me for references)

      We consulted with Jeff on Motronic tuning. He knows his stuff. Stop messing around with generic guesswork and give him a call.

      >>12.5:1 is not that high

      Doesn't have to be, depending on how you got your compression.

      I have seen bent rods & valves on engines because they decked the block and/or ran the mk4 thin gasket and/or installed a high lift cam that would normally clear on an OE engine. This can happen at CR's lower than 12.5.

      There can easily be little clearance on the "short side".

      Progress on the VR6 engine "modelling" has continued. I'd like to thank BennyB for really helping out with this. He has been putting together the first model (OE VR6) in Ricardo's Wave application. It still needs a lot of work to get it to the point where we can begin to draw assumptions but that work continues and in the end we should have a model that will allow virtual "modding" ...far cheaper than porting 5 sets of heads to get it right

      As you can see the model is already showing an approximately correct HP curve for the VR6.

      Please dont make any comments about the details of the RPM range vs HP curve. This is a work in progress!

      The current model has only the basics roughed in. Recent refinements include; Proper injector location, refinement of port dimensions for lower intake, friction and heat transfer multipliers, etc.

      Work yet to be done includes Exhaust dimensions. The intake models including tubing and filters, need some more refinement. Camshaft profiles for OE, street and full race cams will be added.

      Port flow data will be obtained with either flow bench testing or CFD analysis (or both). This is an area that we plan to investigate extensively as the odd shaped VR6 ports may prove to have some surprises.

      We are still progressing and we have no real groundbreaking news to report yet. All in good time...

      PS - If anyone else has access to software or equipment that could help with this project in any way, please contact us at sales @ bildon We can exhange parts for time if interested.


      Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 1:10 PM 5-31-2006


    24. Member eurotekms's Avatar
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      05-31-2006 10:27 PM #24
      Quote, originally posted by Bildon Motorsport »
      >> .


      I have seen bent rods & valves on engines because they decked the block and/or ran the mk4 thin gasket and/or installed a high lift cam that would normally clear on an OE engine. This can happen at CR's lower than 12.5.


      Modified by Bildon Motorsport at 1:10 PM 5-31-2006

      Lucky enough never to tap, but also thought it'd be wise to keep the cams stock.... although a custom set is being spec'd out.

      x

    25. 06-20-2006 01:40 PM #25
      Update....

      Took a brief break from this project to do some other work and get a race and some testing in. But it's time to do a bit more work...

      Over the next few weeks we'll be measuring the intakes and exhausts in more detail to improve the model. We'll also begin some porting and adding that data to the model. Finally we will be destroying some intakes and a cyl head to get cutaway measurements.

      Both stock and full race ports will be examined. Flow bench data (both before and after porting) will be captured and added to the model.

      If anyone has a damaged cylinder head that they would like to donate to the cause, we will pay for all shipping and give the donor a $50 gift certificate for any parts purchased through Bildon.com


    26. Member Kenner8v88's Avatar
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      06-22-2006 12:11 AM #26
      Ok understanding that the 12v is a BIG flow problem, why not cast another one that looks like how a V8 would look. cylinders on the right side exhaust and intake ont he right side and cylinders on the left exhaust and intake on the left, it wouldn't take up any more room then a regular VR6 engine does any way. And VR6's run hot all the time so they are always heat soaked so if you fix the cooling problem also you would probably gain some power also, throw the stock 12v head in the trash and start with a fresh idea dont keep building off an already bad idea to make it worse.

    27. 06-22-2006 12:17 AM #27
      We have no cooling problems with the VR6 race engines we build.
      As far as your other idea. It's A, impossible and B, misses the point of this excercise completly.

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      06-22-2006 01:37 AM #28
      Quote, originally posted by Bildon Motorsport »
      We have no cooling problems with the VR6 race engines we build.
      As far as your other idea. It's A, impossible and B, misses the point of this excercise completly.

      The point of your exercise is to figure out why the 12 VR's hit a wall at 250hp isn't it? We all know its a flow problem, what else do you honestly think it could be? His idea isn't impossible but it would take a lot of funding to cast a new cyl. head and some creative customization up front for the additional exhaust manifold and piping. Its probably not worth it, just turbo the b*tch and be done with it.

      I think the real heatsoaked part we're talking about is the intake manifold, not so much the actual cooling system. My VR's coolant temp sits between 160-180 even when I'm driving it hard.

      A manifold entirely made of plastic would be best (I believe the MKIV's have those). I've run at the track dozens of times and I run as much as .3 seconds better if I ice my intake manifold down so you can actually touch it.

      Has anyone ever messed with camshaft timing like you can do on 8v and 16v's? Adjustable upper timing chain sprockets or totally different sprockets for different degrees?


      just throwing ideas out as they come to mind..


    29. Geriatric Member need_a_VR6's Avatar
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      06-22-2006 11:42 AM #29
      Not sure how I missed this thread for so long either, but it looks like you're talking to all the right people.

      One thing that I always wanted to try was separate intake and exhaust streams on the long and short runners. Get tuned intake and exhaust length on both and keep them separate from intake tubes to tail pipe. I think just this excersise in independence could make some power, and if not at least you would be able to tune intake and exhaust lenghts more efficently.

      Much luck to you, I spent too much money, time and aggrivation barely not making a street 200whp that I would be reluctant to try again.

      -Paul
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    30. Member Kenner8v88's Avatar
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      06-22-2006 07:33 PM #30
      Ok A) nothing is impossible B) it doesn't miss the point of the exercise completely because your trying to get the most power out of this engine, You HAVE to modify things to make power, and if you want to make the most power you have to open your eyes and get out of your little box and come up with ideas. How does it miss the point completely, please tell me. It will still be a 12v it will still be a VR6 it would just be one of a kind. You already know how much you can make on a stock head because of its flow issues, make something that has no flow issues and the problem is solved.

    31. Member James 93SLC's Avatar
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      06-22-2006 10:19 PM #31
      Quote, originally posted by Kenner8v88 »
      How does it miss the point completely, please tell me. It will still be a 12v it will still be a VR6 it would just be one of a kind. You already know how much you can make on a stock head because of its flow issues, make something that has no flow issues and the problem is solved.

      I'm not sure I'd say we KNOW how much we can get out of a stock head. I've only observed a handfull of people here working with different head designs. Who's to say that the magic button hasn't been pushed yet. That's the point I think Bildon is shooting for.
      When you start manufacturing one off custom heads, you've crossed the line of trying to extract the most from a base design.

      The slicing of a head up is exactly what I've been considering in order to examine each runner, and to see how much material can be removed and from where.

      I nominate this as the best Vortex thread of 2006


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      06-22-2006 10:20 PM #32
      im sure it would still be costly but could you machine a newly designed head as opposed to a casting?

    33. 06-22-2006 10:28 PM #33
      >>> ..maybe look into a adjustable cam gear..

      http://www.bildon.com/catalog/...Nav=6

      Not cheap... also not needed if you index the cams properly during assembly.


    34. 06-23-2006 07:45 AM #34
      I saw on the old VR6 Dyno website there was a VW tuner company that made a solif lifter race port/polished big valve head. What the solid lifter aloud for was higher rpms I think it redlined at 8 or 9 grand. From what I heard the head was hella expensive to make but the car dynoed at something like 230whp plus other stuff done to it. OK that might not be practical but it made some decent power and the power band was really big.

      So after you get the head the way you want it have you ever thought about custom grinding your own cams? Plus then custom tuning it for the exact A/F? I know we can't do stuff like tuning the cam angles but would we do the ignition timing? I saw CAT makes cam gears for the VR6 but to use them don't you have to take your manifold off everytime you want to adjust? Unlike some other engines 4g63,honda engines, 2JZ's, etc. our VR6's aren't too friendly to adjustable cam gears. It would be nice to see if they actually helped make power though. If I am rambling sorry been up all night listening to "The Birthday Party"


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      06-23-2006 10:59 AM #35
      yea i'm single chain now, i couldn't even use those cam gears. even if there were some single chain ones i'd be reluctant to use them because i would have no clue how much to retard/advance each cam.

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