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    Thread: 2004 -06 Phaeton with V8; Vibration/Shudder Concerns

    1. Member Paldi's Avatar
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      11-13-2006 12:48 PM #51
      I wonder if they took any pictures during the operation?
      Also, check to see if they put in a turbo W12 engine? VW service departments make mistakes and do stuff like that on occasion.
      I'm glad your car is back, good as new.

    2. Senior Member PanEuropean's Avatar
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      06-22-2007 09:22 AM #52
      VW has recently published a 'Tech Tip' that addresses this exact issue. The complete text of the Tech Tip is as follows:
      TT 07-70
      2004 -06 Phaeton with V8; Vibration/Shudder Concerns

      For customer complaints of a vibration/shudder, verify that the concern occurs between 1600 and 2000 rpm. If the vibration is determined to be within this range, please contact the Volkswagen Dealer Technician’s Helpline for further instruction.

      So, if anyone encounters this problem, perhaps mention to the staff at your VW service department that this Tech Tip exists - this will probably save them a lot of time if they are not aware of it.
      Lastly, please be aware that there are two entirely different 'transmission issues' that apply to the Phaeton fleet:
      1) The above note about the V8 Phaetons, which use a 6 speed transmission, and;
      2) The MIL light illuminating and "DTC 17125, P0741 Stored In Transmission Fault Memory" problem that only applies to W12 Phaetons that use the 5 speed transmission.
      The two issues are entirely unrelated to each other, and there is no crossover at all - the two transmissions are very different. So, please let's be careful to not get them confused during future discussion.




      Last edited by PanEuropean; 10-07-2012 at 06:03 AM.

    3. Senior Member PanEuropean's Avatar
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      06-22-2007 09:40 AM #53
      Archival Note:
      For information about transmission concerns on V8 powered Phaetons that use the 6 speed transmission, see these posts:
      2004 -06 Phaeton with V8; Vibration/Shudder Concerns
      6 Speed Automatic Transmission Concerns (V8 Phaetons)
      For information about transmission concerns on W12 powered Phaetons that use the 5 speed transmission, see this post:
      Does my W12 need a new Torque Converter?
      Transmission Function Concerns (includes TBs 32-06-01 and 37-05-01)

      Please do not confuse the two transmissions! There are known issues that affect a minority of the Phaetons out there with both of the transmissions, but the two transmissions are as different as chalk and cheese! All V8 Phaetons have a 6 speed transmission installed, and all W12 Phaetons have a 5 speed transmission installed. There is no carry-over and no correlation between the problems described and solutions provided for the two different transmissions!
      Michael

    4. Member itsallbeendonebefore's Avatar
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      09-04-2008 10:32 AM #54
      i went through the archived transmission thread and came to the conclusion that my phaeton has the same "shuddering" thats occurring in 3rd and 5th gears at approx 1500-1900 rpm, which feels like a clutch slippage. on to the queston....
      my tech said that the shuddering is caused by the "valve body" in the transmission and replacing that should get the shudder out and make the gear changes snappier. correct me if i am wrong, but arent the gear changes supposed to be smooth as opposed to snappy unless i am in S-mode? and is this "valve body" thing even right? he is not a cert. phaeton tech so its not easy for me to believe what he is saying is true when most of us V8 owners are experiencing the same problem.

    5. Member george777's Avatar
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      09-04-2008 10:57 AM #55
      Sometimes, I swear, you guys sweat over some minor 'details'. Just drive the car...and enjoy it as much as you can. It's not perfect by any stretch of the imagination...and never will be. There are always going to be certain issues that some might find more prevalent than others...
      Since I started watching these boards (Vortex) I've seen more problems than I care to remember...and some have been horrific (according to the posters). There's a member here that's had nothing but problems since purchasing his Phaeton (one that I was ready to look at, but for the fact he bought it before I got there!).
      Still, to my thinking, it's all in the way you treat your car. I don't push her to the limits, as some around here would (and do)...but that's just me. Just be ready for the consequenses if you do...

    6. 09-04-2008 11:04 AM #56
      Depends on the cost. if it is cheaper, you might want to try to flush the transmission fluid. It is the least invasive way to treat minor transmission problems. (It is however, a $700-$800 job)
      Also, get the job done with a Phaeton certified tech.

    7. Member VWGlf00GL's Avatar
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      09-04-2008 11:14 AM #57
      Quote, originally posted by itsallbeendonebefore »
      i went through the archived transmission thread and came to the conclusion that my phaeton has the same "shuddering" thats occurring in 3rd and 5th gears at approx 1500-1900 rpm, which feels like a clutch slippage. on to the queston....
      my tech said that the shuddering is caused by the "valve body" in the transmission and replacing that should get the shudder out and make the gear changes snappier. correct me if i am wrong, but arent the gear changes supposed to be smooth as opposed to snappy unless i am in S-mode? and is this "valve body" thing even right? he is not a cert. phaeton tech so its not easy for me to believe what he is saying is true when most of us V8 owners are experiencing the same problem.


      My transmission was replaced due to shuddering and a hard shift, the shift was so hard, when I came to a stop light to stop, the transmission would shift very hard (it felt like I was being rear ended a few times). I can't seem to find the thread I created many months ago..
      Sport mode changes the gear ratio and shift time; (shorter and faster) hard shifts are definitely noticeable here. I don't use sport that much, I don't see the point in Sport mode in a limo..
      I agree with Francisco, get the flush done with a VW Phaeton Tech; it will be worth the money and/or less headache..
      Have a great day! Good luck with your diagnosis and repair!
      - Adrian
      Adrian
      ---

    8. Member itsallbeendonebefore's Avatar
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      09-04-2008 11:52 AM #58
      Quote, originally posted by george777 »
      it's all in the way you treat your car. I don't push her to the limits, as some around here would (and do)...but that's just me. Just be ready for the consequenses if you do...

      I understand you came to the conclusion that i beat on my car. actually i baby it and have only tried the S-mode ONCE. i wished it was a minor problem like a little rattle that comes and goes but its a very prominent shudder something like a clutch slip. I would think its better to take care of the problem than to make it worse dont u think? .
      Thanks Adrian and Francisco, I think I will get a ATF flush done by a cert. phaeton tech and see where it stands in regard to the shudder and report back.


      Modified by itsallbeendonebefore at 11:54 AM 9-4-2008

    9. Member george777's Avatar
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      09-04-2008 12:28 PM #59
      Quote, originally posted by itsallbeendonebefore »
      I understand you came to the conclusion that i beat on my car.

      Not my intention, my apologies...

    10. Senior Member PanEuropean's Avatar
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      09-04-2008 12:34 PM #60
      Quote, originally posted by itsallbeendonebefore »
      i went through the archived transmission thread and came to the conclusion that my phaeton has the same "shuddering" thats occurring in 3rd and 5th gears at approx 1500-1900 rpm...

      Hi Slajan:
      I appended your new post onto this existing discussion. What you describe is a 'known issue', however, I don't know what the full story is behind it. I do know that VW has published a Tech Tip which is attached above.
      My suggestion is that you print the Tech Tip and ask your technician to call the VW Technician Help Line. That will eliminate the guessing and 'shotgunning' and allow a more rapid diagnosis of exactly what the problem is.
      Michael

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      09-05-2008 12:40 AM #61
      Just finished having the Tech Tip procedure done and offer these observations.
      The Tech Tip solution really works and seems to improve shifting across the entire spectrum. Eliminates all surging and smoother shifts under normal acceleration.
      The correction procedure involves both changing the ATF to a different type (Part No. G 055 162 A2) and re-flashing the engine and transmission control modules. Changing the fluid made the biggest difference, but both procedures are needed because...
      I think the surging problem results from the transmission not making up its mind to unlock the torque converter and/or downshift under light acceleration. After the fix, the transmission is much quicker to decide when to unlock/downshift.
      Requires 2 - 3 days to do, depending on the OAT (aviator for outside air temperature). Mandated requirement to heat and cool the fluid to specific limits at various points, as described elsewhere in the changing ATF thread.
      Don't wait. Get this done before the car runs out of warranty. The dealer charged VW for 20 quarts to do the full mullti-flush procedure and said the new ATF is $55 per quart!! Do the math.
      It helped to be able to tell the dealer "I have a problem and here is the Tech Tip that solves it." Believe I was the first case they had to deal with. Consequence of Phaetons being so rare. Excellent service department, but I wonder how long it would have taken them to find the solution by themselves. Subsequent owners should benefit.


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      09-05-2008 07:03 PM #62
      Slajan,
      If you click on the second V8 transmission post listed by Michael above, you will find my posts related to how a problem similar to yours was fixed on my car, including a post from my Phaeton tech Larry clarifying the procedure he followed. In a nutshell, it involved flushing the transmission and filling with a different spec fluid and "flashing" new software. The outcome was outstanding: even now, about a year and 10kmiles later, the transmission shifts very smoothly and all vibrations/shudders have been eliminated. I highly recommend thifanos procedure.
      Ste

    13. Senior Member PanEuropean's Avatar
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      08-06-2009 01:14 PM #63
      Archival Note: tangentially related discussion - V8, noise engine, VW says it's okay

    14. Junior Member dish_dr's Avatar
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      12-23-2009 09:11 PM #64
      I have been having intermittent shudders when the transmission would shift into 5th gear. Have been asking the dealer to resolve since the 40k service. During the 70k service the dealer finally was able to duplicate the 5th gear shudder. Stated it was caused by a faulty triptronic switch.
      Switch was replaced and vehicle returned to me. Guess what....same issue......
      Here are the issues:
      Light acceleration major shudder when the trans shifts into 5th gear.
      Medium acceleration minor shudder when the trans shifts into 5th gear.
      Heavy acceleration not noticeable.
      When I shift manually - Not noticeable
      When I place in sport mode - Same as above (based upon acceleration)
      Any thoughts??? Suggestions aside from driving like a lead foot.......?

    15. Junior Member
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      12-25-2009 08:47 PM #65
      Hello Robert
      I have after reading about this shuttering been trying to provoce this on my own car.I think maybe I can feel wery light shutter i upphill , slow speed, and light acceleration. I let my technician try it an he ment that my car had an very normal gearboxbehavior.
      In Norway its only 11 Phaetons, so i have nothing to compare with, and therfore on my wisit to the factory on the 10th of dec, I asked some questions about this, but they had nothing useful to tell me about it.
      I told them that some owners had experienced shuttering, but our guide couldnt say anyting about it.
      But, they let me try an brand new Phaeton V8 LWB, so I could compare .
      My gearbox felt almost like the new one with exemptions.
      1. On my car I have more increase in rpms between gearchanges, than in the new one.
      2. I felt a difference when accelererated moderately on the 5 gear. The new one is totally without " vibrations" like i have on mine, so this is maybe the shuttering.
      Anyway, I was very pleased to confirm that my car is as thight and nice to drive as the new one , and it was fun to try the new infotainment system.
      Im will be aware of any signs of this shuttering, and if, I will like one of the other guys on the forum start with changing the hydoil on the gearbox.
      I will keep you uppdated if someting develops.
      Best Regards
      trond

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      12-26-2009 02:20 PM #66
      Take a look at these threads:
      http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2420606

      &postid=59635446#59635446
      http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2701084
      &page=1
      I've had similar problems. Ended up getting torque converter replaced (before I found the above threads). Seemed to address the issue for about 5000 miles, but I'm getting minor shudder again. Wondering if I need to get the updated software for TCM and ECM controllers.
      Good luck.

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      12-27-2009 06:51 PM #67
      Thank you.
      Most interesting reading , and I will maybe change oil in the gearbox at the next service at 90000 km
      rgds
      trond

    18. Junior Member dish_dr's Avatar
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      01-12-2010 08:58 AM #68
      Thank you for the information Trond.

    19. Junior Member dish_dr's Avatar
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      01-12-2010 09:01 AM #69
      After reading all of the links you gave me, I think we have it pinpointed to a 1400-16-1700 rpm shudder. When the car sits over night it will not replicate the problem until the vehicle is at normal operating temp. Once at operating temp, it will duplicate the shudder any time the vehicle is in the 1400-1700 RPM range. Heavy acceleration bypasses the shudder and once at highway speeds it does not appear noticeable.

    20. Junior Member dish_dr's Avatar
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      01-14-2010 07:23 PM #70
      Another update: Dealer diagnosed the car, suggested I replace the triptronic switch ...this shot in the dark did not correct problem this I have already shared...
      Now I took the vehicle back in armed with the information shared with me by my fellow VWvortexers.........Although the trans performs exactly as the bulletin/Information mentions with no other issues.....I received a call from PCC "researching" and a call from the Dealer saying I have to authorize 3 hours of diagnostic time for $317.41
      Am I crazy to think VW should be taking care of this issue related to the 2004 documented information??? I have been complaining of this issue for quite some time over major milestone service levels.......
      Any suggestions???


      Modified by dish_dr at 4:24 PM 1-14-2010

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      01-14-2010 11:51 PM #71
      Robert:
      As you might expect VW does not want to repair anything that still "works." They do not seem to be very concerned with whether it works optimally or as designed. As best I can tell, the CPO warranty is good, but do any of us really know what it covers. I for one, have never seen a CPO contract. My dealer enters the problem/solution in the computer and the VW computer comes back and tells them whether VW will pay or I have to pay. Thus, the deck is stacked against you. Knowing this, I personally would be willing to pay for the diagnostic time if they would inform me what they were looking for and what the final solution would be under the different possible findings.
      I had fits with my transmission while under CPO. It shifted horribly and destroyed the refinement embodied in my Phaeton. I was told this was normal, which I knew was not right - but what could I do. I was getting ready to part with the car and really did not want to. Eventually VW replaced the transmission when it slipped and went into limp mode(error code left). My CPO Touareg has an alternator growl that is horrible when cold and possibly tolerable when warm. I am also getting the same stuff. This is normal. This is slight. I've never had an alternator make this much noise and I'm embarassed to drive people in the car. It bothers my wife so much, she is pushing a little to get rid of it and it's her car. However, does the alternator work? Yes and that's all VW needs to know.
      VW has their business model and it seems to work as they are the biggest automaker in the world. So I don't think they are very concerned about my noisy alternator or your transmission shudder. Just work with them and don't go away and hopefully they'll find a justification to solve your shudder problem.
      Good luck.

    22. Senior Member PanEuropean's Avatar
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      01-15-2010 05:08 AM #72
      Quote, originally posted by Jxander »
      As best I can tell, the CPO warranty is good, but do any of us really know what it covers... I for one, have never seen a CPO contract...

      Hi Jim:
      I bought the "Real Driver" extended warranty (the one that is discussed here: The NEW VW RealDriver extended contract), and I read the contract when it arrived. The person who sells most of us our service contracts, Chris at VW of Langhorne in Langhorne, PA, will happily send you a copy of the contract to review prior to purchase. Chris is a straight shooter.
      The contract is pretty straightforward and pretty easy to read. Basically, it says that if something BREAKS or SUDDENLY FAILS, the warranty will cover it, but if something WEARS OUT, the warranty will not cover it. There are a few systems that are totally excluded (meaning, a part could explode and they still would not touch it), examples include park distance control.
      I'm satisfied that my extended warranty (service contract, to use the correct term) gives me good value for money. I'm almost halfway through it, and have never made a claim, which is probably the best outcome that both the owner and the warranty company could ever hope for.
      Basically, the warranty provides insurance against catastrophic failure of any major parts on the car. It does not provide any coverage for stuff that could reasonably be expected to 'wear out'... at least, that's how I interpret what I read.
      Michael

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      01-15-2010 07:53 AM #73
      Hi Michael:
      I currently have the VW Real Driver extended warranty from Chris on my Touareg and will probably add the same on my Phaeton in the next 6 months. I do have a contract for that one and it is quite clear. I understand that warranty is backed by Fidelity so repairs come out of their pocket. However, I also currently have CPO coverage for both my Phaeton and Touareg. This I believe is backed by VW and repairs are from their coffer. It is the CPO coverage that seems a bit like a black box and I have never seen a real contract only a marketing brochure and the salesman saying it is exactly like the new car warranty. Ha!
      However, it is phrases like "breaks and suddenly fails" that protect the insurer. A shudder in a transmission/torque converter of a Phaeton is unacceptable at moderate miles but may not qualify legally as a broken or failed component as the car does still operate.
      Note I still appreciate my CPO and the Real Driver warranties for Phaetons. They do provide protection against as you say catastrophic failures and other clear failures of many components. However, if you want your Phaeton to operate as it was designed and it is getting some age/miles on it, you will likely have some pretty expensive replacement of parts that have not failed but if left alone will destroy the vehicles qualitative characteristics. So even if you have a warranty, VW or Fidelity will be on good legal grounds if they decline a claim where the part has not truly failed. An intermittent shudder is not a reflection of a failed part. It might be failing. The car drives and everything operates - albeit poorly. Thus, approach VW or Fidelity very carefully in these cases and try shaming them into correcting the flaw.


      Modified by Jxander at 4:55 AM 1-15-2010

    24. Senior Member PanEuropean's Avatar
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      01-15-2010 10:03 AM #74
      Quote, originally posted by Jxander »
      ...[if] it is getting some age/miles on it, you will likely have some pretty expensive replacement of parts that have not failed but if left alone will destroy the vehicles qualitative characteristics.

      I agree, but isn't what you described called (in plainer language) "wear and tear"? For sure, the extended warranty - the Fidelety warranty - excludes wear and tear right off the bat. It is strictly a 'failure and breakage' warranty.
      Michael

    25. 01-15-2010 10:19 AM #75
      Quote, originally posted by PanEuropean »
      I agree, but isn't what you described called (in plainer language) "wear and tear"?

      According to the insurance company, it probably is, but it seems to me that Jim's making a valid, Phaeton-specific point. For a "normal" vehicle, some extra engine noise or an occasional clunk from the suspension probably doesn't make any significant difference to the overall driving experience. However, as we're all well aware, in a Phaeton it does (if it doesn't drive like a Phaeton, there's no point in having it). This is evidently something of which VW is also well aware, and also something it exploits when marketing the vehicle, just take a look at the packaging in the photo of that new vehicle posted yesterday, not to mention the glass factory and all the rest of the sales b/s that comes along with the Phaeton. Which brings us to Jim's point about the CPO warranty. If my understanding is correct, this isn't a "normal" insurance warranty (although that may be the underlying case), it's a warranty administered by VW (at least from the customer's perspective) and sold as a way of promoting the purchase of certified used vehicles, or as a way of first owners to keep their car as if it was still under the original warranty. If VW are serious about their carefully crafted image for the Phaeton, then this warranty really ought to be dealing with problems such as rough transmission shifts, even if it does, ultimately, cost the customer a little more to buy it.

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