any ideas on how to remove a stuck tensioner pulley bolt? if i push any harder, it will strip. it feels like some concrete-strength loctite was used
Now, that picture is useless. The cam gear indeed matches up with neither the nail polish marks or the timing mark.... it's just confusing to people more than anything, I think. Now... a popular method of doing the belt change is to put marks, usually with nail polish, on the belt that overlap to the cam gear and timing belt gear. You then transfer the marks to your new belt, tooth for tooth, so everything matches, and apply the belt... matching the marks on your new belt with the marks left on the cam gear and timing belt gear. These marks do not deal with the TDC marks at all. The TDC marks are the true "in time" indicators... but the nail polish marks are simply there for getting the belt back on easier and keeping things "in time."
As far as checking your work when you're done... you could do with only checking two of the timing marks. If you have a stock flywheel, you could check that too. They'll all be very close but not entirely lined up. Don't let this freak you out. We're talking... the flywheel mark might be off by 1mm or less but the crank and cam TDC marks will be dead on. That's fine. Ideally you should still be at TDC when you get your new belt on... if you're not though, and you can still turn back slightly and line up the timing marks, you're still OK.
When you turn the crank over (which can be done with a socket/ratchet, yes) to check that the belt is turning smoothly, etc - give it atleast 2 turns indeed. Your nail polish marks will not line up anymore... they shouldn't. The timing marks, however, should all still be in sync. After your 2 turns, line up the cam gear mark again and check the crank and flywheel marks... they should line up. Assuming the tensioner stuff is tight and installed correctly, this means you have just changed your timing belt successfully.
EDIT: Yes, you only "need" to undo the passenger side engine mount... but in retrospect, an engine hoist would lend a helping hand to raising the engine and holding it in the necessary positions. Don't let that stop you, though. It's very doable with just one person... just takes time. Have a beer or two mid-way through to keep the nerves tamed.
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Awesome. I appreciate the info man. So when you are making sure everything is aligned...the belt marks will be off and that doesnt matter as long as they started at the right marks correct?
I hate to make my self sound like an idiot, but I really dont understand why the belt needs marks? Is the belt not consistent all the way through or something? How can you transfer the marks from the old belt to the new? Are you just picking a random tooth to start at and lining it all up or is there a starting point on the belts?
OR, are the marks just there to keep the proper spacing between the marks/notches and to make sure the tension is set properly?
Also, is it necessary to remove the spark plugs and coil packs?
What direction is the engine supposed to be cranked; clock wise or counter clockwise, or can you go either way?
The reason you mark the belt and gears is because you could look in time but be off a tooth. Also, you could be an entire revolution off on the crankshaft and look "in time. " The assumption is that you're in time now so transferring the marks ensures you stay in time. Belt tension is a separate issue from things being in time.
You can remove the plugs but I didn't bother. Also, I cranked clockwise - towards the front of the motor.
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hmmm...I dont quite understand. Are you supposed to line everything up first then put the belt on while matching the marks? I guess I just dont understand how the belt keeps everything in time.
When taking off the belt, are you supposed to line up the crank and cam marks right? Than you just mark your current belt where the crank and cam marks are? I feel like the marking of the belt is just kind of random...are the markings pretty much to ensure proper spacing between the two teeth (that need to be at the crank/cam marks) ?
I feel like its random because, first, everything is lined up, put the belt on etc. Cranking the motor a couple rounds, and the crank/cam marks are lined up, but the belt is now off.
When you are first marking the belt (to remove it for replacement) are you trying to line the belt up so that it is in the same position as when you are first putting on a new belt? Or are you just making the marks randomly? I doubt this will make any sense...
Should I already have marks on my belt since this will be the second timing belt job done on my car? (first one was done by the PO) or does the nail polish tend to disappear after a while (if thats what he used)?
Now, your timing belt is keeping everything in time by holding the associated gears respective to each other. At this point, you should have cranked your engine to TDC and have the timing marks lined up.
So, you want to change your timing belt.... first, make marks on the original belt and the gears it wraps around. This is best done by making two marks on one gear and one on the other. This lets you distinguish one gear from another. So, make two marks on the cam gear and one on the crank gear. Literally take like white nail polish or a valve pen and make a mark that touches the belt/gear.
Now you can take your original belt off. Now, you take your original belt and transfer the marks to your new belt. This is basically... you overlay your belts and match up the teeth and transfer the marks to the new belt so it all matches up. Picture pinching the belts together to keep the teeth lined up and then work your way until you transfer all the marks.
Now, you've transferred all the marks. Your new belt is ready to go. You line your new belt back up to match the marks on the cam and crank gear. Your engine should still be in time at this point.
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This is where the cam gear lines up with mark on the valve cover and the crank lines up with the mark on the lower timing belt cover. TDC is when the 1 cylinder is all the way up and flush with the top of the block.
Once the car is set to TDC you could just remove the old belt and put the new one on. Then you should rotate the motor over twice by hand and check to make sure the cam gear is lining up and also that the crank gear is lining up. DO NOT ROTATE THE MOTOR WITHOUT THE BELT ON!!!!!!!!!
The purpose of the timing belt is to keep the head(valves) in time with the block(pistons) so they do not contact each other.
Putting paint marks on the old belt before you take it off is just a extra step that some people take to make sure they don't get the belt off by a tooth or more. If you get the belt off some teeth your valves will contact your pistons and you will have to take the head off and replace the bent valves. Mark the old belt and cam gear with 1 mark and the old belt and crank gear with 2 marks and then transfer the marks to the new belt. Then when you put the new belt on make sure all the marks line up before releasing the tensioner and you can be sure everything is good. You still need to rotate the motor over by hand twice and check your cam and crank marks. Keep in mind that the paint marks will not line up but the factory marks should. If you rotated the motor over by hand like 5 times eventually the paint marks would all line up again.
I would strongly suggest you use the paint mark method since you don't fully seem to understand TDC and what the timing belt does. That way when you are wrestling the belt on you can just look at the marks for reference. You don't have to use the mark method but if you screw this up you will be looking at a few thousand dollars to repair.
oh yeah, I will definitely be using the marks
This is making more sense, I think I am just thinking too hard about it and trying to understand how it all works.
I appreciate the help guys. Oh, yeah Tobz, were you able to find a link to that manual tensioner? How do the hydraulic tensioners even work? From what I got from the guide, you bolt it in, place an allen wrench somewhere, and pull a pin?
these work as shown in the first picture. The piston facing upward is originally retracted into the cylinder and held in place by a pic placed in the very tiny hole as seen in the piston (very top of the tensioner). This pushed the circular tensioner guide thingy into the belt and tensions the belt.
As seen in the second picture. All you do is put the stud into the engine block, then spacer nut and then the tensioner (round bearing with 2 small holes) then washer then nut. Don't tighten up the nut yet and install the red idler (or old hydraulic idler with the pin pulled out). To tension the belt all you need to do is put the tensioner tool in the holes and pull until the belt is tensioned correctly and then tighten the nut.
I used the manual tensioner and you need to play around with it a bit to get the exact correct tension but after that just check the belt every oil change to make sure that it is the same tension and you should be good. It is easy to re-adjust from the top of the engine bay with just the cover off so if you have any problems you can just retension or untension it a bit. It has worked for me so far, just make sure everything is lined up good and don't tighten the belt too tight or it will squeak and wear out your bearing faster
Basically what MechEngg said. The hydraulic tensioner is a hydraulic unit that, over time, loses its hydraulic "power" and lets the belt slack up, causing it to prematurely skip teeth and in turn smash valves into your pistons. The manual tensioner uses an old-school 16V design (I believe) where a manual lobe is turned to apply proper tensioning and is then torqued in place to hold at that angle.
The IE kit, plus the manual tensioner tool, is a little more than the "all-in-one" kits from ECS or MJM... but you'll never have a weak hydraulic tensioner and it will be better-than-OEM parts. Assuming you do your due diligence of checking the belt tension, which is easy, you'll have a trouble-free timing belt experience.
IE kit w/ pump (06A block): http://www.intengineering.com/Integr...27074-1-2.html
Tensioner tool: http://www.intengineering.com/Mechan...68569-1-2.html
You'll also want to pick up the motor mount bolts for the passenger side.... altogether the manual kit, done right, comes out to like $320 - $340 depending on whether you get the motor mount bolts locally or shipped from an online store.
In the end, it's up to you on what you want to do. The OEM tensioner works good for a lot of people, but some people have had bad failures. If we replaced every piece that has ever, even if only once, failed terribly... we'd have replaced every part in our cars by now. You should be fine with either kit... it just depends on how much you want to spend to do this job and what you think your car is worth. Whatever the choice, replacing the belt is a good thing.
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interesting, I will have to look into it more. For the hydraulic tensioner, to get proper tension in the belts is just a matter of properly torquing the nut to 25nm? Or am I missing something?
oh ok. Well thats simple than I think I might just go ahead and do the hydraulic one. I doubt I will check the tension if I get the manual one, plus its super expensive
Thank you for the advice from this thread. I just finished my timing belt/ water pump swap and that was the most nerve-wrecking experience I have ever had on my cars. Headgasket on my vr6 wasnt this bad. Nonetheless, for others (newbs) like myself with this job, I will share some pointers.
1. timing marks: honestly this is what took me the most time. i watched videos on youtube and read this thread over and over, but due to fear, I exaggerated my timing checks. What worked for me was a) setting the cam mark b) looking at the flywheel TDC "0" mark and c) pulling out #1 spark plug, putting a long extension in, and finding TDC at the piston peak. I marked the belt, but that only helped a little, as I was off by half a tooth with the new one and I couldn't figure out why (hence the nervousness!). Once I cranked it over manually twice, and the extension was at its peak, cam mark was on and I saw the TDC "0", I was set. Nervous, but set.
2. tensioner: that was a PAIN! I was tired. That is a good resting point. I could not get that top bolt in if it saved my life! But, I came back the next day, but a 5mm allen in to line up the hole-working from the bottom-and held the tensioner in place while screwing in the screw with some force. My problem was that the screw wouldn't catch. I was not applying enough force.
3. idler pulley bolt: I have no idea why, but that bolt wouldn't budge! Lube, leverage, nothing. I didn't want to risk more damage like a broken bolt in the block, so I left it. It wasn't noisy so I trust that it's fine for the time being. I can always change it later.
4. belt: that was tricky, especially when trying to keep those marks on. I kept the front a little tighter than the rear, but once the tension is on, marks don't really matter, as long as the cam and crank have not moved (which takes effort itself). I spent too much time trying to perfect those marks, and they just didn't matter, to me. My belt was and fairly snug before I pulled the tensioner pin, so that was easy.
5: motor mounts: moving the engine up and down made this simple, but tricky. I found that the block mount goes in easiest with the engine very low. There is just no other way. Tighten the lower bolt then. Then, raise the engine all the way up and do the long bolt and the rear one. Done.
the rest was straight forward. Started fine.
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I am interested in the Mechanical tensioner. so you just bolt it to your block and tighten the tensioner pulley to 25nm and its good? also i emailed MJM and they just said i didn't need motor mount stretch bolts? did something change from the first post? do i really need to replace the Crankshaft Seal and the camshaft seals? Im just trying to make sure i have everything down before i get into it.
The mechanical tensioner works just like you said it does. You need the spanner wrench to rotate the pulley so it puts tension on the belt and then you tighten it down. This idea comes from vw 16v motors, they had this tensioner for years working flawless
You don't need new motor mount bolts, you can re use...
On the point of the t/belt install: if you are that worried about TDC, just mark you belt/cogs appropriately and count teeth/transfer...don't even worry about TDC. Not that that's the way I do it, but it seems to confuse some when that's thrown into the mix with belt marking.
I understand some people get by, but it should not be a suggestion to a weekend warrior about to take on a t/belt job. Spend the extra $12-15, get new bolts, be reassured. I just don't personally feel that a mount point like that should be taking the chances on reusing bolts are are technically defective upon removal.
ok thanks! sounds like ima go with the integrated engineering timing belt kit with the manual tensioner. i like to keep it as simple as possible. not a fan of over engineering a simple piece. and i can get some motor mount bolts i gotta stealership 5min away from my house. id feel safer getting new ones. also on the mechanical tensioner. do you just turn it till the belt is snug? any tips on judging that?
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I would recommend people not to preform this task until they understand what TDC means! The paint on belt should be more for reference than anything else, (ex. shortcut) but check timing mark on valve cover and crank on flywheel side because pulley on crank cannot always be an accurate reference point.
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Quick question(s), only the passenger side motor mount needs to be loosened/removed correct? No messing with the dogbone or anything? How are you guys lifting the engine? Just jacking up by the tranny? Just curious because when I was doing my dogbone bushings, jacking up in different spots moved the engine differently.
Ordering my kit today!
Only one mount needs to be removed.
I used a small piece/plank of wood under the sump to distribute the load to a hydraulic trolley jack. I found it necessary to adjust the engine height at times to wiggle things in and out, so a hydraulic jack made things easy. I also had an axle stand positioned under the plank to catch the engine in case the jack gave way.
Last edited by Iangti7777; 01-17-2012 at 03:15 AM.