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    Thread: Changing Transmission Fluid on the 5 speed (FGE) Transmission (W12 Engine)

    1. Moderator PanEuropean's Avatar
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      12-07-2006 11:05 PM #1
      There has been a fair amount of discussion recently about problems that forum members have encountered with the 6 speed transmission that is installed in the V8 powered Phaeton. Although we have not yet figured out exactly why these transmissions are encountering problems, most of the evidence appears to point towards contamination of the transmission fluid with engine coolant. This could be taking place at the heat exchanger at the front of the car where the transmission fluid is cooled.

      After reading all the discussion at this thread V8 Transmission Problem (was: Engine Coolant in Transmission Fluid), and reading the truly outstanding write-up by Barry Lenoble and Paul Waterloo of AudiPages forum explaining how to change the automatic transmission fluid in an Audi that is equipped with a similar transmission, I decided it might be a good idea to change the fluid and filter in my transmission. I have a W12 powered Phaeton, which uses the 5 speed ‘FGE’ transmission. I have not encountered any problems of any kind, I just decided to do the fluid change partly as preventative maintenance, and partly because I wanted to see what was inside the transmission.

      The illustrated guide at the AudiPages forum (Audi A8 Transmission Service) is the basis for this post of mine. The process of changing the fluid in a Phaeton transmission is almost identical to the process for an Audi.

      There are two important caveats that must be considered if you are planning to change transmission fluid in a Phaeton:

      a) You absolutely must have a hydraulic lift to raise the car. There is a subframe support bar installed right across the middle of the transmission pan. I think the torque specifications for the bolts on this bar are one million Newton-meters per bolt. I cannot imagine being able to get this thing off without the car being lifted up nice and high to allow you free access to it.

      b) It is really, really difficult to get the transmission filled up (from empty) before the transmission fluid temperature exceeds the 35°C limit. For this reason, you have to plan to drop your car off at the VW dealer early enough in the day to allow the staff to drain the fluid and partially refill the transmission, then leave the car sitting up on the lift overnight (to cool down) before making the final filling and check first thing the next morning. I cannot over-emphasize how important this is… the car needs to be left on the hoist overnight to cool down before the final check is done.

      Having said that, here is a photo essay that describes the process. Please use this together with a printout of Barry and Paul’s write-up from AudiPages – I have not attempted to re-state everything they have already documented there.

      Consumables Needed

      1) You will need to order the parts in advance. For a 5 speed FGE transmission such as is installed on a W12 powered Phaeton, this is what you will need for consumables:

      1) 9 quarts of fluid suitable for a 'FGE' transmission – part number G 052 162 A2. This is a light amber colour fluid, it looks like Drambuie, has about the same consistency as Drambuie, and costs about as much (per liter) as Drambuie.

      2) A gasket for the transmission oil pan, part number 01L 321 371. This is the large green thing.

      3) A washer for the drain plug on the transmission pan, part number 018 321 377 B. It’s not possible to order the washer by itself, in practice, you order a new plug and washer.

      4) A washer for the fill plug on the transmission pan, part number 01V 321 379. This is actually a rubber O-ring, not a washer, but the parts catalog lists it as a washer.

      5) A gasket for the fitting from the oil strainer to the valve body, part number 01L 325 443. This is also an O-ring. Do not get it confused with the other O-ring, they are about the same size but they are not interchangeable.

      6) An oil filter part number 01V 325 429 C. This is a flat metal assembly – the filter element is hidden inside it.

      You will also need some unusual tools. These are well described in Barry and Paul’s write-up. For a Phaeton, there are three additional special tools that I think you should have available – a hydraulic lift for lifting up the car, a Volkswagen dealership for protecting the hydraulic lift from the elements, and a VAS 1924 transmission fluid filling device.

      How to do the work – Draining and Disassembly

      Lift the Phaeton up on the hydraulic hoist. Observe the lifting precautions detailed in this post: Lifting the Phaeton on a Hydraulic Lift - Precautions.

      Remove the two plastic underbody pans. The front pan comes off first, the rear pan comes off second. You cannot get access to the transmission without removing the rear pan.

      Remove the subframe support bar that is present underneath the transmission. I am not sure exactly what this bar does, but I think it adds rigidity to the front suspension. There are nuts on the top of the bar – you will need a socket wrench with an elbow of sorts to allow you to hold the nuts whilst you remove the bolts from below.

      Once this bar has been removed, you can remove the drain plug and the transmission fluid will come out. It does not matter what temperature the fluid is when you drain it.

      Once the flow of fluid from the drain plug has slowed down to a dribble, you can begin to remove all the fasteners from the perimeter of the sump pan on the bottom of the transmission. These are Torx 27 head fasteners. There are a lot of them – over 30. Same as is illustrated on the AudiPages post, you will have difficulty with two being slightly obstructed by a muffler pipe. The work-around is the same – grind a T27 socket down, then put it in a ¼ inch box end wrench and access the two problem fasteners from the side. It is easiest to leave four fasteners (one on each side) in place until after you have removed all of the others. Then, support the sump pan with your hand, and have a helper remove the last 4 fasteners. The sump pan will have about a liter of fluid in it when you remove it – keep the sump pan flat as you remove it, otherwise you will get soaked by the residual fluid.

      The transmission will continue to drip fluid (slowly) after you take the sump pan off, so keep the waste fluid drain device handy to roll into position under the transmission after you have taken the sump pan off.

      I observed the fluid as it came out of my transmission – it was a translucent brown colour, much the same as the new fluid. I caught a bit of it in a glass container and let it sit for a while. There did not appear to be any evidence of contamination by any other fluid, or cloudiness, or anything else amiss. No sediment appeared to settle in the bottom of the glass. My car had about 30,000 miles (actually, 54,000 km) on it when I did this.

      I had a look at the inside of the sump pan and the magnets in the sump pan. There was a very fine paste-like substance on the magnets, but no obvious metallic particles. I think that the paste-like substance was probably material that had worn off of the various clutches inside the transmission and was then caught by the magnet. There was a tiny bit of sediment on the bottom of the pan, but not anything that I or the techs at the VW dealership were concerned about. All in all, the fluid looked like it was in good shape, and there was no evidence of excessive wear to be found.

      Below is a close-up picture of the magnets in the bottom of the tray, and a wider photo of the entire tray. These magnets are located prior to the filter in the fluid flow sequence – so, I am not too worried about the very fine paste on them. I think this is pretty typical wear, and it is similar to the ‘fuzz’ that is found on the chip detector magnet in a healthy aircraft turbine engine.

      The next step in the process is to remove the filter, which is the large flat black rectangular thing in the photo below. This is accomplished by removing the two fasteners that hold it in place. I did not bother to tear the filter element apart because there was nothing found upstream of it to warrant further inspection.


      Once the filter has been removed, all the draining and dis-assembly work is complete, and the re-assembly phase begins.

      How to do the work – Re-assembly

      Fit a new O-ring onto the new filter. See the three photos below. Moisten the O-ring with fresh ATF before installing it, and take care not to twist (deform) the O-ring when putting it in place. Install the new filter – it is a friction-fit into the hole on the bottom of the transmission – and put the two fasteners that hold it back in place. Be aware these are different than the fasteners that hold the sump pan in place. The torque value for the fasteners that hold the filter in place is not specified in the VW repair manual, so I used 11 Newton-meters, (8 foot-pounds), which is the same as the torque value for the fasteners used to hold the sump pan in place.

      Re-install the drain plug. It is not possible to purchase only a gasket for the drain plug, so I purchased a new plug, complete with gasket. The torque value for the drain plug is not given in the VW repair manual. So, I just torqued it until the threads stripped, then backed it off a quarter of a turn, which is standard practice if you are not certain about these things.

      Place the new gasket over the flange on the sump pan. Then, lift the sump pan up and put one fastener in each side, but do not tighten the fastener – leave it loose with about 1 cm of thread showing. Now install all the other fasteners, again not tightening them, leaving them with about 1 cm of thread showing. Once they are all in place, gently press the pan up from the bottom, and finger-tighten one fastener on each side to hold the sump pan and gasket up against the bottom of the transmission. Then tighten all the fasteners, using a diagonal work pattern, to a value of 11 Newton-meters (8 foot pounds). It is very important that the torque is equal on all the fasteners. The VW repair manual does not give a torque value for these fasteners, but VW of America technical bulletin 00-06-06 gives the value of 11 Newton-meters for these fasteners.

      Once the sump pan has been reinstalled, you can remove the filling plug. Do not install the new O-ring on it as soon as you remove it - save the new O-ring until the end of the whole process, because you will be installing and removing this plug a few times before you are finished. Keep the fill plug handy, with the very large Allen key installed in the bottom of it – you will need to be able to get access to the plug and the Allen key quickly later on, to avoid a big mess when you are filling the transmission.

      Before you forget about it, re-install the big subframe support bar that goes across the bottom of the transmission sump pan. Take careful note of how it is oriented – the beveled part in the middle is installed so that it matches the shape of the transmission sump pan. The bevel goes on the top, and faces the back of the car. The torque value for these bolts is interesting – it is 50 Newton-meters plus an additional 90° of tightening. In other words, pretty darn tight.

      How to do the work – Filling it

      Now it is time to start adding new transmission fluid. Fill up the VAG 1924 transmission fluid filling jug with the fluid appropriate to your transmission. In the case of a 5 speed transmission model FGE, this is VW part number G 052 162 A2. I believe that the 6 speed Phaeton transmission uses a different fluid. Double check to make sure you are putting the correct fluid in the transmission.

      Hook up the diagnostic scan tool (VAG 5052 or similar) to the car, and look up the measured value block for ATF temperature. This is MVB 1 of group 7. If you prefer, you can use guided functions.

      Place the jug in a convenient and secure place that is well above the transmission. On a Phaeton, the air intake area behind the engine is big enough to offer an excellent spot for placing the jug. Gravity will then do the work for you.

      Be very cautious and gentle when inserting the filling tube. If you reef it in too hard, you will damage the top of the filling hole assembly.

      Get everything organized and the diagnostic scan tool hooked up before you begin filling.

      Place the jug on the top of the engine, then lift the car up, stuff the nozzle into the filling hole, and open the valve. The transmission will accept about 4 liters of fluid before it starts to spill out - see the photo below.

      When it starts to spill out, remove the nozzle, put the filling plug back in place (finger-tight), and start the car. Run it through the different gear positions (don’t bother with S, that is just an electrical position), then turn the engine off and put the nozzle back in and continue filling. It will probably take another 3 liters or so.

      Don’t leave the car running longer than necessary to stir things up inside the transmission, otherwise, the fluid temperature will increase beyond 35°C, and then you will have to leave the car up on the lift overnight to cool down and re-start the process in the morning. In practice, I have never been able to get this job finished without the fluid temperature exceeding 35°C before I am finished, so, you might as well plan to leave the darn car up on the lift overnight and finish the job in the morning. Life is less stressful that way.

      This is what the diagnostic scan tool looks like when you are monitoring the temperature of the fluid as you fill the transmission. Once the temperature gets to 40°C, you need to leave the car turned off for quite a while (overnight is easiest) to let it cool back down again before you can do the final top-up.

      To complete the final top-up, start the (cold) car, run it through the various gear positions (Park, reverse, drive, 2, 3, 4, 5) for about 20 seconds each, put it back in park, take the plug out, and fill until the fluid leaks out. This is done with the engine running! The objective is to have the fluid leaking out just as the temperature of the fluid reaches 35°C. At this point, put the filling plug back in, tighten it to 80 Newton-meters, and take the car for a long test drive so that everything gets hot. Bring a portable diagnostic scan tool with you and make sure that the transmission fluid reaches at least 85 degrees. This is the point at which the valve to the transmission fluid cooler (at the front of the car) opens. Bring the car back to the dealership, let it sit for about 5 hours with the hood up (to help it cool down), then perform one final fill. At this point, the work is done.

      Note that the transmission will not require addition of the full specified capacity of fluid (9.8 liters) because you have not drained all the fluid from the torque converter or the transmission fluid heat exchanger during the drain process. My transmission accepted 7 liters of fluid – this does not include the roughly 500 ml that was spilled during the various top-up sessons.

      If you have read this far, I think you can now understand why you need to leave the car at the dealership for a couple of days to get this work done. The most time-consuming thing is letting the fluid cool down.

      Below is a picture of a Phaeton that is at the ideal temperature to begin the process of adding transmission fluid.

      Last edited by PanEuropean; 09-26-2012 at 09:33 AM.

    2. Moderator PanEuropean's Avatar
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      12-07-2006 11:15 PM #2
      Attached are two PDF documents that give the specifications for transmission fluid in the North American Phaetons.

      Be aware that the 5 speed and 6 speed transmissions use different types of fluids, and they are NOT interchangable.

      Michael

      Attached Files
      Last edited by PanEuropean; 08-12-2011 at 09:15 PM.

    3. Member chrisj428's Avatar
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      12-08-2006 08:37 AM #3
      Brilliant write-up as always. I just have one thing to add...

      Vis a vis torque values where not specified, e.g.:

      Quote, originally posted by PanEuropean »
      The torque value for the drain plug is not given in the VW repair manual. So, I just torqued it until the threads stripped, then backed it off a quarter of a turn, which is standard practice if you are not certain about these things.

      The generally accepted VAG spec is expressed not as a value, but as an adjective. Hence, the creation of the specification: "gutentite".

      --Chris

    4. 12-08-2006 12:37 PM #4
      Excellent write up Micheal. A couple of notes.

      The fluid that Volkswagen uses in all of their modern automatic transmissions is highly specialized and should be the only fluid used. We refer to it and the VW/Audi hydraulic fluid as liquid gold it was so expensive (and VW/Audis would leak so much of it requiring frequent top ups that we made a tidy business of selling and filling up cars with it).

      The factory equipment does indeed make the job much easier and tidier but is not strictly required. A simple (CLEAN) fluid pump is all that's required to get the fluid into the transmission since the equipment plays no part in determining the fluid level once in.

      The cross bar is a structural reinforcement for both the front subframe as well as a lateral reinforcement for the front chassis structure and helps stabilize the chassis during braking and cornering. Torque values on those bolts are very important. Many of VW/Audis chassis bolts are stretch bolts and should not be reused. They often are and I suspect unless your driving your car like Jack Bayruth reusing the bolts ONCE is OK.

      The drain plug and others that are sealed with an o-ring are not structurally holding together anything thus require only minimal compression force since the deformation of the rubber o-ring is what is sealing the plug not compression deformation of a metal or hard plastic washer. Since the size of the plug is out of proportion to the structural needs of its use, if I don't have a torque value at hand, the size and torque capacity of the tool is a handy reference to how much to tighten something. Check what the maximum torque value is for the tool you're using.

      Your magnets looked fine to me. In fact based on the material they were retaining I'd say you were premature in changing the fluid but there is no good way of knowing that until it's too late. Be sure to clean the magnets before reinstalling the pan. It's OK to remove them for cleaning (an air gun on an air hose helps to blow the crud off) but they MUST go back in the same place and orientation.

      I know that all the manufacturers are indicating things like transmission fluid and coolant are now non-maintenance life time components. That is until you read the fine print. In most cases the OEMs do not consider the way we drive our cars as "normal". If you check the maintenance manual there are descriptions of normal and heavy duty service use and very different schedules for each and most of us actually fall into the heavy duty service schedule. Our maintenance intervals and component inspections and replacements are very different under those circumstances. As both a Master Automotive Technician as well as an automotive designer, I firmly believe in regular replacement of all the fluids in our cars with transmission fluid as well as the rest of the drivetrain fluids being replaced at the 60,000 mile mark. I consider this important preventative maintenance and many of the OEMs privately agree with me but California law has warped many of the good sound practices of the past and needlessly increased the cost of our cars because of a few wealthy loonies in the weird state.

      Great writeup as always Micheal. If I think of anything else relevant, I'll let you know.

      Cheers, David


      Modified by PanEuropean at 3:44 PM 5-16-2008


    5. Member chrisj428's Avatar
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      12-08-2006 02:17 PM #5
      Quote, originally posted by ForceV4 »
      I firmly believe in regular replacement of all the fluids in our cars with transmission fluid as well as the rest of the drivetrain fluids being replaced at the 60,000 mile mark.

      David,

      What else constitutes "drivetrain fluids"? I believe you're referring to the rear differential? The front differential's fed by the transmission, yes? And, thirdly, the TorSen differential -- do those require anything? I know the Haldex interval is every 20,000 miles, but I've never seen anything for the TorSen.

      I'm keen to know -- gotta get 200k out of this one!

      --Chris

    6. Moderator PanEuropean's Avatar
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      12-08-2006 03:44 PM #6
      Quote, originally posted by chrisj428 »
      The front differential is fed by the transmission, yes?

      Hi Chris:

      On the 5 speed , W12 engine car, there appears to be a front differential that is a separate assembly from the transmission. See section 39F of the repair manual. It is filled with gear oil. A special tool (AF8 3247) is needed to get access to the filling plug. I will check this oil level the next time the car is in for an oil change. I kind of ran out of time yesterday.

      Michael


    7. Moderator PanEuropean's Avatar
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      12-08-2006 10:45 PM #7
      Hi David:

      Thanks very much for your comments and suggestions. The tech and I were wondering if we should replace those four bolts or not. The repair manual did not say that they should be replaced, but the method of torquing them kind of suggests that they are secured by thread deformation. So, I ordered 4 new bolts today (good deal - only 75¢ each - 'cause I don't have any money anymore after buying all that transmission fluid) and I will install the new bolts when the car gets its next oil change, which will likely be early spring.

      Now we are wondering if we should check the front end alignment? Arrrgh.

      I have written to ZF Transmissions in Germany and asked them to proofread the post and provide the missing torque values. I think they will help out, they seem to be a very customer-friendly company.

      Just as a post-script to the big post above, here is a picture of the two different containers that my VW dealer uses to add transmission fluid to cars. One container is full of Phaeton V8 transmission fluid, and the other is full of Phaeton W12 transmission fluid.

      The red stuff is, apparently, even more expensive than the gold coloured stuff - in the area of about USD $40 a liter or so. It is delivered to the dealership by armored car. The parts department manager tells me that the one liter bottles of the red coloured fluid come inside little purple velvet bags, just like Crown Royal whiskey. The customer can take the bag home and give it to their kids, to keep their marbles and alleys in.

      Michael

      Two different kinds of VW transmission fluid

      Last edited by PanEuropean; 09-26-2012 at 09:36 AM.

    8. 04-12-2007 10:59 PM #8
      if you're not exactly dying to use a scan tool to check trans temp, point a temp gun at the bottom of the pan, usually the difference is about 3 degrees celsius.

    9. Moderator PanEuropean's Avatar
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      07-10-2007 09:59 PM #9
      Attached is a two page "flowchart" published by ZF, the manufacturer of the transmission, that provides excellent step-by-step instructions explaining how to check or fill the transmission.

      Although this document was written for the five speed -24 transmission used in the W12 Phaeton, the process is very similar if you have a V8 Phaeton with a six speed -32 transmission.

      The translation from German to English does not appear to have been done by someone who has ever got their fingers dirty working on a transmission , so, I have added a few notes to clarify uncertain wording in the document.

      Michael

      Attached Files
      Last edited by PanEuropean; 08-12-2011 at 08:50 PM.

    10. 02-07-2008 02:16 AM #10
      First, I want to thank everyone on this forum for all the Phaeton information and advice. I can honestly say that I know more about my Phaeton from reading this board than my so-called "Certified Phaeton Technician" at the dealerships I have used.

      One issue that I was having was a Shuddering / Surging issue that has been discussed at length on several transmission related threads on this forum. Just like in that discussion, the technician at the dealership refused to believe that the issue was transmission related and kept the car for two weeks testing out the driveline, wheel alignment, tires, etc. I had suggested doing a transmission flush and fill to the service manager and he did not want to do it, but after two weeks I got angry and told him to "just do it". The issue is now GONE.

      I had the technician save a Coke bottle of the transmission fluid to check for coolant in the fluid. The fluid was almost black, but no coolant. Oh, one thing that all of you might find interesting is that the dealership I used actually recommended and used a non-VW synthetic transmission fluid which was less than half the price of the Phaeton stuff.

      So, the moral of the story is don't buy into this VW crap about "lifetime transmission fluid" and consider a flush / fill if you suspect or notice anything funny with the transmission performance.


    11. Member george777's Avatar
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      02-07-2008 08:07 AM #11
      I am beginning to see a trend here when it comes to VW dealerships. Their 'support' system doesn't seem to be adequate. It could be just a few dealerships, but overall I'd say it's mostly on the negative side. That's making me think more and more on this...

    12. Member chrisj428's Avatar
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      02-07-2008 09:20 AM #12
      Quote, originally posted by wkoenning »
      Oh, one thing that all of you might find interesting is that the dealership I used actually recommended and used a non-VW synthetic transmission fluid which was less than half the price of the Phaeton stuff.

      Am I reading correctly that you had them put a non-VW approved/non-synthetic fluid in the transmission of your Phaeton?

      --Chris

    13. 02-07-2008 11:20 AM #13
      Quote, originally posted by chrisj428 »

      Am I reading correctly that you had them put a non-VW approved/non-synthetic fluid in the transmission of your Phaeton?

      Yes and No. No, I did not ask them to put non-VW fluid in the car. The emphasis that you are missing in my statement is that the VW service manager recommended that I put non-VW fluid in the vehicle. Yes, I did allow them to do this since I am way out of warranty (over 100K miles) and really had nothing to lose. Also, No, it was not a non-synthetic, it was a non-VW synthetic fluid.


    14. Member chrisj428's Avatar
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      02-07-2008 11:37 AM #14
      Quote, originally posted by wkoenning »
      Yes, I did allow them to do this since I am way out of warranty (over 100K miles) and really had nothing to lose.

      Well, I'll be curious to see the results.

      Do you have the name/spec of the fluid they ended up using?

      --Chris

    15. 02-07-2008 12:05 PM #15
      Chris,

      I just e-mailed the service manager asking for the brand and specs on the transmission fluid and will post them when I get them.

      As far as the results, they have been great so far. Saved a few hundred bucks and the car is working perfectly (unlike before the fluid change). However, I hear what you are saying and the prrof will be in the long-term results. I will provide updates if the issues pop up again.


    16. Member Aristoteles's Avatar
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      02-07-2008 05:21 PM #16
      Quote, originally posted by wkoenning »

      So, the moral of the story is don't buy into this VW crap about "lifetime transmission fluid" and consider a flush / fill if you suspect or notice anything funny with the transmission performance.

      Mercedes-Benz used to tell the same tall story about "sealed for life" autoboxes but after experiencing transmission failures at 70k+ miles (so outside the manufacturers warranty period) attributed to atf degradation MB has started doing what owners have been telling their service departments to do for a long time: change the atf at 50k -75k miles (depending how strong your nerve is!). The point is even synthetic oil degrades. Why would manufacturers think different? Or is it all down to marketing department hype?

    17. Member copernicus0001's Avatar
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      02-07-2008 07:41 PM #17
      There is a wide range in quality among transmission fluids and engine oils. Amsoil produces excellent transmission fluids and engine oils. I would consider their products superior to the fluids recommended by VWofA. Note that especially the oils used in the North American marketplace are substantially different (and inferior) to those used and recommended in Europe.

    18. Moderator PanEuropean's Avatar
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      02-10-2008 02:20 AM #18
      Attached is an extract from the Phaeton repair manual that explains how to check / change fluid in the transmission. It is (more or less) the same 'how-to' guide as what I posted in the first post at the top of this thread.

      This guide makes reference to the '09L' six-speed transmission used in the V6, V8, and V10 Phaetons. The procedures are the same for the W12, but be careful to not refer to references to other documents that pertain to the 09L model. I have added annotations to this document where such references appear.

      Lastly, be aware that the 5 speed transmission used in the W12 cars has a separate reservoir for the front axle differential gear oil. Checking the level of the fluid in this reservoir is a totally different task. It is not a scheduled task and would (presumably) only be necessary if there was evidence of a leak from the front axle differential.

      Michael
      Attached Files
      Last edited by PanEuropean; 08-12-2011 at 09:21 PM.

    19. 03-25-2008 11:59 AM #19
      Very interesting - I am curious about long term performance as well. I have also been having transmission issues (hesitant starts and a consistent hard downshift from 3rd to 2nd gear) and called one of the VW contacts suggested by the forum. The tech informed me that he would recommend doing nothing with the transmission. He suggests that they can flush and fill with a specific trans fluid but it would "burn and smell." He stated that the smell would enter the car through the air vents and be very unpleasant to the point of not driving! Has anyone heard of this? The hard downshift frustrates me to no end and is really effecting my overall Phaeton experience.

      Thanks for your input.


    20. Moderator PanEuropean's Avatar
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      03-25-2008 05:17 PM #20
      I changed the fluid in my transmission (see link above) and did not encounter any problems with smell - I can't imagine why any problems would arise.

      Michael


    21. Member chrisj428's Avatar
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      03-25-2008 06:57 PM #21
      Quote, originally posted by Otters »
      He suggests that they can flush and fill with a specific trans fluid but it would "burn and smell." He stated that the smell would enter the car through the air vents and be very unpleasant to the point of not driving!

      To paraphrase Inspector Clouseau, "I have had speaks with some interesting parties and they have advised it was the Minkey."

      Seriously, though, I found out the odor issue has been exhibited in approximately 0.00025% of the vehicles which have had this fluid exchange performed and it was ultimately due to a cowl drain tube which was not closing off properly, allowing the odor to be admitted to the cabin.

      --Chris

    22. 03-25-2008 08:44 PM #22
      With my V8, I did have the rough shifting, grinding noise, hesitating reaction, oscillating reving, etc.

      Discussed this with the dealer and the first step to do was an oil change, using another type of oil.

      Dealer did a double -regular- oil change nearly 3 weeks ago.

      Things got better, though still not matching the cars' upper class expectations. Currently VW offers 70% coulance, though the invoice for the other 30% didn't make it, until now, to me.

      Did discuss the remaining issues with the dealer and agreed to drive around a few more weeks to see how things develop.

      In the mean time, they do investigate further options, including another type of oil change. (The regular oil change only refreshes around 50% of the oil, so two changes would result in still 25% of the original oil in the gear box). ZF certified gearbox specialist Tim Eckart has developed a method to replace over 99% of the oil in one session. I do have positive expectations, such an oil change might solve the problems with my V8 gearbox.

      The often performed gearbox swap does not have my preference, because of the risk (maybe even certainty) of collateral damage.

      Especially, because smell and color were ok and the amount of debris with the first oil change was minimal, I don't expect the gearbox to have take damage from the factory filled wrong type of oil. Though it might be the oil is absorbed in the friction materials permanently, which would definatelly mean a gearbox change.

      My car is (just) out of the 4 years waranty periode, though far less then 100000 km / 66000 mi, which does make claiming for a longer garanty periode not such a problem, provided you a) let the dealer explain the problem, b) let the dealer explain it's a general problem and c) make your point, these type of problems should not happen (structurally) with a Phaeton. Ofcourse everything in a very friendly manner.


      Modified by v1mbrt at 2:51 AM 3-26-2008


    23. 03-26-2008 03:00 AM #23
      Quote, originally posted by Otters »
      Very interesting - I am curious about long term performance as well. I have also been having transmission issues (hesitant starts and a consistent hard downshift from 3rd to 2nd gear) and called one of the VW contacts suggested by the forum. The tech informed me that he would recommend doing nothing with the transmission. He suggests that they can flush and fill with a specific trans fluid but it would "burn and smell." He stated that the smell would enter the car through the air vents and be very unpleasant to the point of not driving! Has anyone heard of this? The hard downshift frustrates me to no end and is really effecting my overall Phaeton experience.

      Thanks for your input.

      Otters,

      Though not a "long term update, it has been almost 2 months since I had the transmission flush and fill performed and I have put about 4500 miles on the car and it is still performing flawlessly post oil change.

      I'm sure one of our resident Phaeton techies on this board can either debunk or validate this, but in regards to the hard downshifts I have been told in the past that these hard downshifts were caused by the Phaeton utilizing a transmission "brake" to help stop the vehicle. I get the same thing when I am in Sport mode, though I haven't used Sport mode since my fluid change (I didn't want to tempt fate I will give Sport mode a try tomorrow and see if the hard downswhifts are still there.

      Wallace


    24. Member
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      03-26-2008 08:32 AM #24
      Almost all of my hard downshifts are in Sport (which is my guilty pleasure to drive in often..).

      One thing most concerning about Sport is the downshift from 2 to 1 when going at a relatively slow speed. Sometimes this happens right as you are easing up on the brakes and the car lunges as it goes to 1.

      Anyone else see this happen sometimes?


    25. 03-26-2008 11:14 AM #25
      Quote, originally posted by mhoepfin »
      Almost all of my hard downshifts are in Sport (which is my guilty pleasure to drive in often..).

      One thing most concerning about Sport is the downshift from 2 to 1 when going at a relatively slow speed. Sometimes this happens right as you are easing up on the brakes and the car lunges as it goes to 1.

      Anyone else see this happen sometimes?

      I get the same exact thing and it is what I was mentioning above. I almost rear-ended a guy a couple of months ago because of this "quirk".

      Wallace


    26. Member VWGlf00GL's Avatar
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      03-26-2008 12:11 PM #26
      Hello Guys, I've had my Phaeton 29 days now. I've been following this tread for a few days now. I have the same problem when pulling into my garage at my Apartments. I pull up to a BMW to align myself with backing up into the garage (how I park this limo). When I slow down (we're talking 1-2 MPH), I noticed the car lunged forward a few inches. I almost rear ended a parked BMW. I don't use sport that much, almost not at all. Should I have this checked or let it be?

      Oh, I get the occasional hard downshift as ya'll are talking about. IIRC, its from 3, then 2. I could be wrong.


      Modified by VWGlf00GL at 9:12 AM 3-26-2008

      Adrian
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    27. Moderator PanEuropean's Avatar
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      07-18-2009 06:36 PM #27
      Attached is a flowchart, with annotations by myself, that explains the work process involved in changing the fluid in the 5 speed (5HP24A) transmission used in the W12 Phaeton.

      Michael

      Attached Files
      Last edited by PanEuropean; 10-06-2012 at 04:10 PM.

    28. Moderator PanEuropean's Avatar
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      08-02-2009 11:20 AM #28
      Note that VW has published a requirement to change the transmission fluid in the W12 transmissions (the ZF 5HP-24) every 30,000 km (20,000 miles).

      A copy of the amendment to the maintenance schedule in the owner manual is attached.

      Michael

      For reasons I don't understand, a thumbnail image of the attachment does not appear below. But, the attachment is there, it's just invisible. Put your mouse underneath the text that reads "Attached Thumbnails" and double-click, and the attachment (a PDF) will open in a new window.

      Attached Files
      Last edited by PanEuropean; 10-06-2012 at 04:18 PM.

    29. Moderator PanEuropean's Avatar
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      08-02-2009 11:29 AM #29
      Archival Note: Related discussion, concerning transmission fluid specifications - ZF Transmission Fluid Specifications

      Michael


    30. Senior Member PowerDubs's Avatar
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      09-08-2009 12:55 AM #30
      Quote, originally posted by v1mbrt »
      ZF certified gearbox specialist Tim Eckart has developed a method to replace over 99% of the oil in one session.


      Did anyone ever figure out what this procedure is?

      -Josh
      06 Phaeton 4-seater 6.0 W12 | 04 VW R32 | 03 Gti 24v VR6 | 12 Kia Soul 1.6 stick
      01 ZRX1200

    31. Moderator PanEuropean's Avatar
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      09-08-2009 02:59 AM #31
      Would be nice to know. The challenge, I think, is getting the residual fluid out of the torque converter.

      Michael


    32. 11-03-2009 08:33 PM #32
      Ahoi Folks,

      here you can get all the related Informations about the phenomenal "Tim Eckhart Transmissionfluid Change Method" ;-) It's as simple as clever. It is much quicker, tidier, much more effective (about 99%) of Exchange! and also uses a cleaning-fluid for total removement of any unwanted stuff... And the page is full of praises from all sorts of Drivers and companies; even if some of them where very sceptical at first.
      http://www.automatikoelwechsel....html
      In one picture, you can see that even ZF in Mannheim, the Mothership of the Gearbox, is using his method on a Phaeton - not the worst proof for quality


      It is all written in German, maybe someone can translate it.

      Here is a List with the Companies which use the System so far, 2 of them already in the U.S.A.
      http://www.automatikoelwechsel...1.pdf

      For further Information, just ask Tim.


      Modified by Ronntar at 5:41 PM 11-3-2009


      Modified by Ronntar at 5:46 PM 11-3-2009


    33. Member
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      03-09-2010 05:43 PM #33
      Im just doing my fluid change now, i litteraly mean now, the gearbox is just dripping.

      Ive just dropped the filter, and found there is no O-ring fitted, as soon as I loosened the 2 bolts it was loose.


      The fuild was dark brown, but I have no particles on the catch magnets.

      Im changing the fluid because on a very cold day (-5 deg C) my car started to slip changing between 1st and 2nd, it has also slipped a few times in the past where I thought it had lost traction. Since the cold day it hasnt been driven.

      Does anyone think the lack of O ring could have caused any other faults?
      eg the oil could have theorticaly been sucked from the top of the filter by-passing it. It looks like it has been this way since the factory.

      Does everyone agree I should just refil the oil and hope for the best?

      Thanks,

      Anthony.


    34. Moderator PanEuropean's Avatar
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      03-10-2010 09:40 PM #34
      Anthony:

      From what you have written above, I gather that the only problem you have found is that there was an O-ring missing from the neck on the transmission oil filter.

      I doubt that this would have resulted in any oil bypassing the filter, simply because the sump is not full when the transmission is operating. Therefore, oil would have to enter the scavange pump via the bottom of the filter, then up through the filter neck. It is unlikely that ZF (the manufacturer of the transmission) failed to put an O-ring on the filter when they built the transmission in Zwiebrucken. It is more likely that the filter was changed at some time in the past, and the person who did the work failed to install an O-ring on the new filter. As you can see from the photos in the earlier part of this thread, the O-ring is supplied separate from the filter.

      The big problem that I foresee you having will arise from changing the fluid on a very cold day. How were you able to ensure that the fluid temperature had reached +35°C at the point where it started to overflow?

      I have changed the oil and filter in my transmission (that's where the pictures above came from), and it is a difficult job to do under ideal conditions, by this I mean when you are working inside a heated service facility, complete with hydraulic lift, VAS 5052, proper specialized tools, etc.

      Lastly - the four bolts that hold the bar across the bottom of the transmission oil pan are deformation bolts (the torque spec is 50 N·m torque plus 90° of rotation) - did you replace those four bolts with new ones when you re-installed that bar?

      Michael


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      03-11-2010 12:50 PM #35

      Michael,
      One of my concerns is there is quite a loose fit so when the pump trys to draw the fluid through the filter, the suction in effect will be lost and fuild will be drawn from the gap between filter and solenoids.
      This causes 2 problems, unfiltered oil and possible oil starvation.

      The car has full VW service history, and there are no metions of the gearbox being worked on, the car has 46k miles on the odometer.
      Im 90% sure this is how it has always been and it is ZF who forgot the seal. Im not going to dwell on this point tho as there is no way to prove or disprove.

      The temperatures arernt too bad now (-1 in the mornings to 12 miday), so I will ensure using VAGCom that the oil reaches the temp so I have flow through the cooler.

      My personal garage is heated with a 2 post lift I have the latest Ross Tech software, so I think I am fully equiped to handle most jobs.

      And yes lastly the 4 bolts, I have them ready to fit.

      Anthony.


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