The SheRocco's first tranny swap...

[SheRocco]

..but, as usual, I'm lost. haha. Does it matter what tranny I put on 'er? I'd take a look at what she has on there now, but she's about 15 miles away sitting in my grandparents driveway... waiting... This is the jist of what I've found in a quick search in our forum (other forums scare me):

AGB and 2Y are the only stock 16V 020 codes.

Yup. That's it. Also, what should I be looking for in terms of condition when I'm looking at these trannies before I buy one and install it? Thanks guys.

[TheTimob]

Find a 4K! they kick ass!!

(stock on 84s)

[87_16v_85_8v_Scirocco]

i dont know for sure what you should look for in a transmission. I have a 2H in my 16V and it rocks.. 1st Gear rocks.. I believe they came out of early 80s GTIs?

Id check the Seals too before you install it.. ( the input inner and outer seal, and the input shaft bushing, and the Through-Out Bearing and cover, and maybe while you have it out the Drive flange shafts seals and caps.. )

GL with the swap.. Its not to hard when you get into it.. I thought it was easier to take the tranny out and put it in if you balance the transmission on a Jack and Angle it on / off the engine..

Keep us posted..

[Lysholm]

Quote, originally posted by timbo2132 »

Find a 4K! they kick ass!! (stock on 84s)

i'd stick w/ a 16v 020's, i'm pretty sure the 4k's are the among the 020's that like to self machine themselves and spit diff rivets at your clutch...

[Paul@VWvortex]

Quote, originally posted by Lysholm »

i'd stick w/ a 16v 020's, i'm pretty sure the 4k's are the among the 020's that like to self machine themselves and spit diff rivets at your clutch...

Actually all 020s have the self machining syndrome, it is just a matter of time before it happens.

It is really all in what you want and what your budget will stand. If you have a fixed budget look for a transmission that has either some sort of service history or look for one that was just recently gone through and might have a bolt kit to get rid of those rivets on the factory diff that might come apart with a greater application of power.

The 16v 020 trannys typically have a 3.67 final drive which will allow the car to turn lower rpms on the highway but you will give up a certain amount of bottom end acceleration.

the 8v trannys such as the 9a have the same basic gearing and final drive specs as the one listed above but will have automatically come with the correct pressure plate and flywheel.

the 4k and other trannys that are similar will have a 3.89-3.94 final drive ratio which will give better acceleration off the line but will rev higher on the highway at the same speeds as the 3.67 listed above.

The best scenario if you don't mind spending some dinero (meaning about $3-400 above the cost of a basic $2-300 donor tranny) would be to find a 4k or similar tranny, have it professionally taken apart, have them service/replace any suspect pieces, install a bolt kit and a limited slip diff kit like the one that is sold for about $100 and then find yourself a .75 or .71 fifth gear.. and you will have the best off the line acceleration and similar or lower revs on the highway than the 16v tranny.

Check out the scirocco.org gear calculator chart, do some playing around with that and then consult Rob to find out which flywheel/clutch/pressure plate/axle sizes you have on the car and then let us know so we can give you more advice. Oh and while we are talking about it, how is your clutch, pressure plate and flywheel anyways? Those are items to be evaluated, upgraded and replaced while you are in there.

[Lysholm]

Quote, originally posted by Paul@VWvortex »

Actually all 020s have the self machining syndrome, it is just a matter of time before it happens.

yeah, your right, and to be fair it still occasionally happens to the newer tranny versions, the older 020's w/ the 90mm flanges that came on 8v motors seem to be more prone to failure than the 16v boxes, although i'm sure some of this is greater age

[J. Daniel]

Actually the list of trannies that will have the correct input shaft size are the 2Y and AGB as you listed and the AMC, CHE and DFQ.
The latter three all have a medium spaced set of gears topped with a .80 5th.

On the other hand you can use virtually any 020 box, the only concerns being that the clutch disc needs to match the input shaft, you may need to change out your, presumably, 100mm axle flanges and some of the early gearboxes need to be clearanced for them and lastly there are two different styles of reverse light switches and it's nice if the gearbox has the right switch so you don't need to rewire.
I have a spreadsheet that I think is more complete than the scirocco.org listing showing all the gear ratios of the various boxes.
If you should like a copy IM me.
HTH
Dan

[SheRocco]

Thanks guys, I'll keep you updated.

[Rocco_Phil]

Well Dan, perhaps she would like that modified 2H that I have, eh?

Pretty much the 'ideal' tranny as described by Paul, except that the input shaft is one of the small ones. It also has 100mm axle flanges on it. Rebuilt by NGP and then Dan-O put an awesome 0.76 fifth gear on it for me. No mileage on it.

Plus, BOLT KIT. Only thing missing is the limited slip differential or Peloquin shim kit (assuming you want that - some don't). A LSD is a huge investment, though.

If interested, drop me a PM.

[SheRocco]

Quote, originally posted by Rocco_Phil »

Well Dan, perhaps she would like that modified 2H that I have, eh? Pretty much the 'ideal' tranny as described by Paul, except that the input shaft is one of the small ones. It also has 100mm axle flanges on it. Rebuilt by NGP and then Dan-O put an awesome 0.76 fifth gear on it for me. No mileage on it. Plus, BOLT KIT. Only thing missing is the limited slip differential or Peloquin shim kit (assuming you want that - some don't). A LSD is a huge investment, though. If interested, drop me a PM.

PM sent

[echassin]

Not to steal the thread, but can y'all comment on this quick fix limited slip I heard about?

That spring that inserts under the left side drive flange can be replaced to give 80% limited slip effect?

Is this true? Where does one get that? Is tere any real "hitch"?

I would use it in a 200 hp (or less) setup to diminish right side wheel spin in first gear.

[Lysholm]

Quote, originally posted by echassin »

Not to steal the thread, but can y'all comment on this quick fix limited slip I heard about? That spring that inserts under the left side drive flange can be replaced to give 80% limited slip effect? Is this true? Where does one get that? Is tere any real "hitch"? I would use it in a 200 hp (or less) setup to diminish right side wheel spin in first gear.

i think Peloquin still makes the spring/shim kit for the 020 and you do both sides, i have never had the opportunity to drive a car w/ this done, but everyone that has them raves about it...any Peloquin dealer should be able to get you one.

[echassin]

Thanks!

How does it work? Crushing the gears together makes them run tighter? It seems like that might not be too good for the diff gears in the long run.

[TheTimob]

Ask Peter - thescirocco.com - he'll tell ya all about it - then he will sell you a kit for DIRT!!

[Paul@VWvortex]

Quote, originally posted by echassin »

Not to steal the thread, but can y'all comment on this quick fix limited slip I heard about? That spring that inserts under the left side drive flange can be replaced to give 80% limited slip effect? Is this true? Where does one get that? Is tere any real "hitch"? I would use it in a 200 hp (or less) setup to diminish right side wheel spin in first gear.

I have used the 80% "faux lsd" in a couple of trannys and while some will argue that it places pressure on parts of the tranny that shouldn't be squeezed I operated a pretty built ABA on a 9a for about 15,000 miles with no issues. It wasn't as effective as the quaifes I have had in the corners but it was quite a bit cheaper.

[power_house]

can someone elaborate on what a bolt kit is and what needs to be done to ooo say a 4k tranny to ensure that it wont explode under the power of a 16v? sort of a thread jack sort of not, thanks in advance.

[Broke]

Quote, originally posted by echassin »

Not to steal the thread, but can y'all comment on this quick fix limited slip I heard about?

It adds equal amount of binding preload to each of the output shafts, to help
"fool" the diff into sensing equal resistance (traction) on both sides, preventing one wheel spins....to a degree.

Quote, originally posted by echassin »

That spring that inserts under the left side drive flange can be replaced to give 80% limited slip effect?

The springs and conical thrust rings are already there from VW, they were added in 1983 to combat rattle noise from the play found in the drivetrain. The factory papers actually describe the additional parts as being there to "locate the shafts free of play".

They are on both sides, and what Peloquin did was to insert a 2.5mm washer under the flange to compress the spring more, which compresses the conical thrust ring, which tightens up on the output shaft to provide more preload. The 2.5mm washer is put under both sides, not behind just one flange.

There is a Diff stock/40%/80% page on the site in my sig that has the figures, but the pre-1983 trans would allow the diff to "break free" and spin just one wheel whenever the diff would sense even the slightest change in the resistance (traction) between the 2 front tires.
After 1983, there was some preload on the output shafts, and people made the mistake of thinking it was a mini-slip, mini-LSD, or some attempt by VW to put a "diff" into the new cars. It was just for noise The result in the 1983 change was that the car, when on a lift, would spin both front wheels when one was spun by hand. It now took more difference in force to allow the diff to break free, about 30 ft-lbs before it would allow one wheel to spin.

With the addition of the 2.5mm washer under the flange, this raised the force needed before the diff would break free, up to about 75 ft-lbs. This is the 40% kit. It would help when turning under power, to prevent the inside light wheel from spinning....the outside wheel can take (say for an easy example) 100ft-lbs of torque until it spins out, the inside wheel can take, say 60 ft-lbs of torque before it spins out because of less weight on that inside tire in a corner. The old diff would see the 40 ft-lb difference between the 2 front tires, and send the power to that wheel that is easiest to spin....and the inside tire would spin up. If you preload the shafts, the difference in the tires has to overcome that preload before the diff will recognize it and send the power to the weak wheel.

It is very much like the old off-road trick of using the brakes to climb out of the mud....if the diff can "see" the difference in tire traction, then "lie" to it. It looks at the resistance on each side to decide where to send the power (to the weakest wheel)....if you apply slight brakes, the rotors will then bind up both sides of the truck equally, and as far as the diff is aware, the truck is now on nice dry level ground trying to pull a load. You just apply more throttle until the engine power over comes the braking power, and the wheels spin....the diff will see the equal binding from the brakes, and it'll climb out using both tires. You can have one tire hanging in the air, and one in the mud, with a totally open diff (like the VW), and make both tires spin with engine power by using the brakes.

The truck diff would see it takes nearly no force to spin the tire in the air, and it takes a lot more to spin the one buried in mud. Just as an example, lets use 100 ft-lbs to turn the one in mud, and only 5 ft-lbs to turn the one in the air. If you apply enough brakes so that it would take 150 ft-lbs to turn each wheel, then the diff won't see the tire in the air. It'll see both wheels take the same force, and it'll split the power evenly.

The Peloquin shim kits act the same way, except they do not bind anything when moving in a straight line. The conical thrust rings that actually bind the output shafts will spin with the diff carrier and shafts in straight line driving, and only when the car is in a turn, and one wheel is spinning faster than the other do the conical rings then bind anything, as the axle will not be turning at the same speed as the diff carrier. They don't open or close, they just spin with the other parts at the same speed until a corner, then the parts turn at different speeds to each other, and the conical ring has to slip around the output shaft, and it binds it up.

Take the 40% kit, and add to it a steel puck seal with a M10x1.5 bolt to help in pulling the flange in tight against the spring (and the conical thrust ring), and you have the 80% kit. The 80% kit is a 40% kit with the additional steel puck seal that replaces the VW puck seal and a bolt to pull the parts tighter together.

Quote, originally posted by echassin »

I would use it in a 200 hp (or less) setup to diminish right side wheel spin in first gear.

That is what it is for, to help stop one wheel spins, but the effect is limited to a certain ft-lb of torque, and then it'll act as a standard open diff again. If the 80% kit offers 135 ft-lbs of preload to the shaft, and you get a change in tire traction over that amount, the diff will still allow one wheel to spin.
It'll stop the inside tire from lighting up in the rain around corners under moderate throttle, but if you tromp it with the inside tire on ice or something, the diff will still send the power to the lighter wheel, once the preload from the shim kit has been exceeded.

Quote, originally posted by power_house »

can someone elaborate on what a bolt kit is and what needs to be done to ooo say a 4k tranny to ensure that it wont explode under the power of a 16v? sort of a thread jack sort of not, thanks in advance.

The bolt kit replaces the factory rivets VW used to secure the ring gear to the diff carrier. Here are pics of the 020 diff, one removed from a trans that had failed because of a broken diff rivet (you can see the broken rivet in the pic, and the old site URL) and then pics of a diff with a bolt kit installed (the bolts in the pic are Pelolok brand bolts)...

To install it, the trans needs taken out of the car, split open, and the shafts lifted out to allow the diff to be lifted out, and worked on (drill out the old rivets, press in the new bolts). The site in my sig has rebuild and tear down pages showing the 020 being opened and built, to give an idea of what is involved in getting to the diff to install a bolt kit.

Broke

[al@absolute]

after having experienced many blown 4k's with a less then stock 16V, i'd be the first one to suggest a O2A cable shift swap. its a much tougher tranny and it allows you to use the upgrade 228mm flywheel and clutch (G60 flywheel/VR6 clutch/PP). Patatron makes a trans mount and you can use a vanagon clutch cable with a custom bracket instead of the hydro clutch. makes for a much more reliable setup.
its what i'm going to be running this summer.

[OorsciroccO]

Great write up. Thanks!

[Rocco_Phil]

Broke's tranny site is incredible. Thanks for that effort, man.

[ginster86roc]

Quote, originally posted by Rocco_Phil »

Broke's tranny site is the sh_it.

+eleventybillion!

[tmechanic]

WOOO HOOOOO!
I finally know where to check my trans code, this site ROCKS!

[Rev0MaN]

yay, go sherocco!!!!!

[bikerbill2021]

broke is STILL the man when it comes to trannys, and always will be

[echassin]

Thanks for a great explanation!

[Broke]

Quote, originally posted by OorsciroccO »

Great write up. Thanks!

Quote, originally posted by Rocco_Phil »

Broke's tranny site is incredible. Thanks for that effort, man.

Quote, originally posted by ginster86roc »

+eleventybillion!

Quote, originally posted by tmechanic »

WOOO HOOOOO! I finally know where to check my trans code, this site ROCKS!

Quote, originally posted by bikerbill2021 »

broke is STILL the man when it comes to trannys, and always will be

Quote, originally posted by echassin »

Thanks for a great explanation!

Cheers for the kind words, lads

Glad the site is a help to others

Broke

[SheRocco]

Time to bring it back from the dead...

Found a tranny on the regional forums that *might* work, but since Rob is asleep I thought I'd ask you guys...

Would a AWY close ratio 020 tranny work with my 16v? This is what the guy says about the tranny:

Quote, originally posted by ditchdigger »

AWY Close ratio 020 Tranny This is the rare 1990 Jetta Diesel tranny. Gearing is the same as a 4K but with a slightly taller second gear. 90mm flanges and is in great shape. No grinds, howls, anything. It works flawlessly.

I have no clue, as usual. It's cheaper than a 4k would be, and I'd like to save time by not having to swap out the tranny twice (first time with a temp tranny, second with a 4k). In fact, I don't even know if this particular transmission is still available... but even so, it'll open up my options that much more if A. it will work; B. it's pretty much the same as a 4k; and C. is cheaper than a 4k.

Thankies.

[TheTimob]

Yep! I looked it up! Same except for second it is.

Keep in mind, it isn't a highway transmission, unless you like 4100 RPMs at 75mph. (though you can pass people like there's no tomorow)

[SheRocco]

Quote, originally posted by timbo2132 »

Yep! I looked it up! Same except for second it is. Keep in mind, it isn't a highway transmission, unless you like 4100 RPMs at 75mph. (though you can pass people like there's no tomorow)

Ohhh, good call about the highway part. Most of my road life is on the freeway...

[TheTimob]

Then get a better 5th gear from the classifieds, or from an econobox transmission. I think that there's a .71 out there that makes cruise crazy low RPMs - 4th then is useful again for passing.

[kenny_blankenship]

get an AGB and put the 4k ring a pinion in it

[G-rocco]

Timbo, whats's the code for that transmission?
From what I understand, a .71 might be a pretty big jump for something geared like a 4k. The transmission I'll put in my car is a 4k with a .75 5th in it, and I'm even a little apprehensive that will be a big gap - .80 might have been a better choice. I'll know, and have some real-life evaluations in a few weeks after it's installed.

And I wish I hadn't missed this thread - great info Broke

[TheTimob]

Remember http://www.scirocco.org/gears/

Yeah, a 4K with a .71 would be at 3101 RPMs at 75mph (my tire size is 185/60 R14) You get .71 from an FF or FN (roccos in 81-83 had these)

.75 is 3275 RPM You can find these in a lot of A2s

.80 (from an ABA manual, I think this is the one sciroccojim has) give you 3494 RPM

.89 (stock for the 4K) is at 3887

[moonstation 2000]

Im sent to sherocco.

[johnnierabbit]

thanks for all the help.