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    Thread: How to solve (or prevent) Eos Roof leaks

    1. Moderator PanEuropean's Avatar
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      02-20-2007 05:13 AM #1
      As many of you know, I don’t own an Eos. This makes it difficult to provide practical advice based on my own experience with the car, as I do in the Phaeton forum. The staff at my VW dealership (Volkswagen Richmond Hill) follow activities in the forum, and when a customer called to say that his Eos had a water leak, the service manager at my dealer invited me to come up and watch the problem-solving process.

      The Eos with the water leak was the first Eos my dealer sold. It was delivered to the customer only a few days after the Eos went on sale here in North America. It has a fairly low VIN (in the 7,000’s), which suggests that it was probably built sometime in the summer of 2006. This is noteworthy, not because there is anything unique about a low VIN, but because the car is now 8 or 9 months old. This is certainly more than enough time for the seals on the car to dry out.

      The owner of the Eos dropped it off at the dealership, and the first thing the technicians did was to have a look at the windows and roof to make sure that they were all operating smoothly and properly, and that all the measurements (especially the reference lines at the top of the window glass) were within specifications. No problems were found. The next step in the troubleshooting process was to carry out a ‘baseline water test’ to determine the extent of the leakage. The dealer principal sat in the driver seat, the windows were closed, and the car was flooded with large volumes of low-pressure water from a rather large hose in the wash bay. After about 30 seconds, he started honking the horn, and when the water was turned off, a very wet dealer principal emerged from the car. No doubt about it, the car leaked.

      The leak manifested itself at the front left corner of the windshield, where the roof touches the top of the windshield. None of us knew where the water was getting in, but it was clear that the water was ‘getting out’- in other words, dripping into the cabin - at one specific location.

      We all put our heads together to try and determine what the facts were. They were as follows:

      1) The car was almost 9 months old, even though it was only delivered to the customer 5 months ago.
      2) No-one had ever lubricated the rubber seals on the car.
      3) The windows and roof all appeared to work properly, except for some deformation (pinching) of the seals on either side of the sunroof. This deformation appeared to be caused by the sunroof panel binding on the roof seal, and pulling part of the seal downwards.
      4) All the technicians had been to Eos training.
      5) All of us had read all the technical bulletins (TB’s) issued for the Eos.
      6) None of us had ever read the owner manual.
      7) No-one wanted to start any kind of dis-assembly. We wanted to try the ‘least invasive’ solutions first.

      So, after we had all read the '3.2' section of the Owner Manual (this is the "Tips and Advice" section, and there is some really good information in there), and after some discussion, it was decided that since the owner manual suggests on page 25 of section 3.2 that the roof seals be lubricated with VW lubricant part number G 052 172 A1, maybe it would be a good idea to start by doing exactly that.

      We ordered three bottles of lubricant. None of us knew how much would be needed, but we knew that the bottles were pretty small. Because the dealer principal was still wet from the baseline water test, he had no disagreement at all with the technician’s decision to order three bottles of lubricant. Because the lubricant would not arrive until the next day, we asked the PDI person to do a thorough detail of the car, to ensure that there was no dirt or other external influences on the car.

      The next day, the lubricant arrived. We all took turns applying it – the technicians, myself, the PDI person, and some of the sales staff. We made some interesting discoveries:

      1) An Eos has two different types of seals on it. Roof seals and the seals that windows touch are made of a different material than door seals or trunk lid seals.
      2) These ‘different’ seals have sort of a rough texture, kind of like a cat’s tongue.
      3) If the seals are dry (not lubricated), they will be quite hard, not pliable, and will not tightly conform to the window edge when the window is rolled up.
      4) If the seals are dry, they have a dull finish, and sort of a ‘white’ luster to them.
      5) It is easiest to lubricate the seals on either side of the sunroof if the sunroof is open.
      6) It is easiest to lubricate the seal that goes across the middle rear of the roof if the roof is stopped partway through the retraction process, before the front part of the roof begins to lift off the windshield.
      7) It is easiest to lubricate the windshield seal if the roof is fully retracted.
      8) To lubricate seals at the top of the windows, put the lubricant on your finger, then rub it in.
      9) If a seal looks deformed, rub lots of lubricant on it, and keep rubbing the seal until it ‘rehydrates’.
      10) If you leave the roof open for an hour after doing the lubrication, the seals seem to suck up any excess lubricant that might be sitting on them.

      After we finished lubricating all the seals, we conducted another water test. The results were “almost perfect”. There were no leaks from the roof, but there was a small leak – just a few drops – from the area beside the exterior rear view mirror on the driver side. Investigation revealed that we had lubricated the window seals there with the door closed, hence, we did not fully lubricate the seal – we missed the part that hides behind the exterior rear view mirror. After applying lubricant to this area, we carried out the water test again, and the result was perfection – after 15 minutes of hosing the car, not a single drop of water was found inside.

      The PDI person dried off the car, and we noticed that there were greasy spots on the paint where we had unintentionally deposited excess lubricant. The excess lubricant can be easily removed from the painted surfaces with a paper towel and some windshield washer fluid – no fancy solvents are needed. Because the paint is not porous, the lubricant can’t sink into it.

      Below are a whole bunch of photos that I took – hopefully this will explain the procedure better. Many thanks to all the service department staff at my VW dealer for their help making this post.

      Michael

      Eos Owner Manual - Page 25 of Section 3.2 (NAR English Version)

      What it looked like before work began

      When seals are not properly lubricated, they bind and get pinched, and as a result, do not keep water out.

      Visual characteristics of a seal that needs lubrication

      This is the stuff to use, simply because this is what the owner manual says we should use.

      The alignment rack is a handy place to use to do the work.

      Apply the lubricant sparingly, right out of the bottle (clip the top of the spout).

      With the roof in this position, you can get the "butt ends" of the window seals, as well as the rear seal that runs horizontally across the roof.
      Don't let the roof lift up from the windshield - otherwise, it will come back down on you!

      Don't forget this seal.

      ...but, DO NOT LUBRICATE the fuzzy seal that touches the trunk lid.
      This seal is obviously different from the others - it is fuzzy, not rubber.

      <

      Flood the car with water, hit all the seals directly, but don't use a nozzle on the end of the hose.
      Let's be realistic: You want to imitate a heavy rainstorm, not Hurricane Katrina.

      Don't forget the bits at the very front of the doors that are hidden by the rear view mirrors.

      A few of the pictures that I took last Thursday (the scenes from the service bay shown above) did not turn out well, so I could not include them in the original post. I went back to the dealer today, but the customer had picked up his Eos and was out driving it. Fortunately, there was another Eos in the showroom I could use for photos, so, here are a few "Tips and Tricks from the School of Hard Knocks" to help others get the best possible results in the future.

      Michael

      Some additional elaboration...


      PDF is available here

      http://www.golden-hind.com/eos/EOS_ROOF_SEALS.pdf

      Photos re-hosted October 14, 2012 - Michael. Sorry about the poor quality of the photos, I did not have the originals and I lifted these photos out of the above-referenced PDF. The photo quality is a little better in the PDF.

      Last edited by PanEuropean; 10-15-2012 at 01:28 AM.

    2. Moderator PanEuropean's Avatar
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      02-20-2007 05:22 AM #2
      Just a post-script:

      After this was all done, the staff at my dealership decided that they were going to modify the way that they carried out the PDI (Pre-delivery inspection) on new Eos.

      Because the Eos is a seasonal vehicle, it is not uncommon for the PDI to be carried out several months before the vehicle is actually delivered to the customer. By example, there is a really nice Eos in the showroom of my VW dealer right now (the one I am salivating over), and it has been there for a few months. The seals could dry out if the lubricant is applied at the time of PDI, especially if the car is not purchased quickly after the PDI.

      So, the new plan at my VW dealer is as follows: Roof seals will be lubricated on the day of delivery to the customer. We found out that it takes about half a bottle of lubricant to do the entire car, so, the plan is that the techs will lubricate the seals on delivery day, then the salesperson will give the remaining half-bottle of lubricant to the customer as a gift, and at the same time, explain both how to apply it, and the importance of using the lubricant as explained in the owner manual.

      I am looking forward to getting my half bottle of lubricant when I finally get around to buying an Eos...

      Michael

      This is what was leftover after everything was lubricated
      I only needed half the bottle of Krytox to do the initial lubrication of the whole vehicle.

      Last edited by PanEuropean; 10-15-2012 at 01:24 AM.

    3. Moderator PanEuropean's Avatar
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      02-20-2007 05:32 AM #3
      Archival Note:

      Here are links to two previous threads (now both locked, to keep all the discussion here on this thread) that also addressed the issue of lubricating the roof with the special lubricant (Krytox):

      Roof seals-- dry with white spots, or is it "just wax"?
      Maintaing Eos top seals/weatherstrip with DuPont Krytox Lubricant

      Special thanks and recognition is due to forum member Wolfsburger Mit Fries for the pioneering work he did on the Maintaing Eos top seals/weatherstrip with DuPont Krytox Lubricant thread.

      Michael


    4. 02-20-2007 05:43 AM #4
      Michael,

      many thanks for the SUPER write-up, this is a great help.
      Tomorrow i will pick up my EOS, and can come VERY prepared.

      Thanks again for this thorough review!

      Chris


    5. 02-20-2007 07:28 AM #5
      Class.
      Thanks very much for the informative thread.
      I think I'll be investing in some of the G 052 172 A1. It looks way easier to apply than the spray my dealer gave me (loads of overspray).
      Luckily, as I've said before, I've had no leakage problems, but prevention is surely better than cure. Off to order some now.

    6. Member minnvw's Avatar
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      02-20-2007 07:47 AM #6
      Micheal, thank you for all that information, nice details, i ran a copy for my own use, and ill let my little home town dealer look it over if they want,? Doug

    7. 02-20-2007 09:04 AM #7
      Michael:

      I have a quick question to ask you. The pinches on the moonroof, after you applied Krytox, were you guys able deformed the pinches back to normal stage? In another words, no more pinches?

      I have pinches on both sides of my moonroof seals. The last time I brought it in to the VW service, the mechanics said it was normal for all EOS. However there was an EOS in the showroom didn't have that pinches at all.


    8. Member ialonso's Avatar
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      02-20-2007 09:14 AM #8
      I have the same follow up. My car expereinces the same symptoms, I can move the seal with my hand, but after many krytox coats on the sun roof seal, the seal still gives on the sunroof, like the one on your picture..

      Once the car was closed up, did the sunroof not bite the seal anymore ?

      I purchased the GM version of the Krytox a while ago, maybe the VW version has something else on it that makes it better ???


    9. 02-20-2007 09:21 AM #9
      Michael,

      Wonderful writeup. It confirms my suspicions that many of the "problems" persons have been stating, of water leaks and rattles, results directly from not maintaining the seals.

      I certainly wish all dealers/service areas were as top-notch as yours. If so, VW wouldn't have quite so many complaints coming in. Also out of curiousity, considering your seeming very good status in the VW world, do you think it all possible you would be able to contact the head honchos in VW, give them your writeup, and PERHAPS VW would send this out to all dealerships as a TB, or maybe just a very important item that NEEDS to be done to EVERY EOS?

      Anyways, regardless of the outcome of that, I appreciate the notes, and I personally am going to print this out, and very NICELY give a copy of this to my sales person, sales manager, service manager, and service tech.

      Thanks again


    10. 02-20-2007 10:29 AM #10
      Micheal,

      Thank you for the very informative post. Couple questions how often do they think the lubricant needs to be reapplied?

      Second do you think most dealers can be talked into applying this before we take delivery of these cars when new?

      Tks again.


      Modified by ehdg eos at 10:30 AM 2-20-2007


    11. 02-20-2007 12:52 PM #11
      Michael,thanks so much,its things like these that many of us dont know,I should have my EOS by the end of this week.I just want to ask you a few things,i live in Cyprus and our weather here in the summer is boilling about 38-40 degrees celsius.Firstly will my dealer give me lubricant to start me off or should i order some,and because of our hot weather here how often should i lubricate the seals.finally how soon should i make the first lubrication? thanks Andy-Cyprus

    12. 02-20-2007 12:52 PM #12
      I had minor leaks again on Sunday after heavy rain, so yesterday I applied the lubricant for the first time. Now I just have to wait for the next downpour to test it out.

      I received my car at the beginning of January brand new off the boat. Given the pictures and descriptions above, I'd say that all my seals were complete dry and stiff, and had possibly never been treated.

      The difference in look and feel is extremely noticable after applying just a small amount.


      Modified by lonerthx at 9:55 AM 2-20-2007


    13. Moderator just4fun's Avatar
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      02-20-2007 01:01 PM #13
      Micheal,

      Once again you have provided us with an informative and professional post. Many thanks to you for being so dedicated to the Eos forum, despite not being an owner.

      Your post reflects 100% of what I experienced when lubricating the seals. (except the part about having a leak to begin with)

      I would like to add the following comments, and please note; I am not slamming VW here, I am identifying some points to assist in furthering our overall understanding, and hopefully infuencing VW to implement a few minor changes.

      1. It is excellent news that your particular dealership is implementing pre-delivery lubrication of the seals. Hopefully VW corporate will recognize this important maintence procedure and encourage their worldwide dealer network to perform this task as part of every pre-delivery inspection for the Eos. (as per my previous post, my Eos was delivered with dry seals)

      2. VW corporate will recognize this as an important routine service item and amend the routine maintenance schedule for the Eos to include seal lubrication at the appropriate intervals.

      3. Hopefully VW will update the the information in booklet 3.2 Tips and Adivce, Chapter "Care of Rubber Seals" to correct the following:
      - Better identify all the seals that require regular routine maintenance. (the rear middle seal is currently not identified)
      - Correct the statement "The Rear Window Element Must Not Lift Up!" in the section explaining how to access the sunroof seals for lubrication. It is necessary for the rear window element to lift up in order to access the "middle rear roof seal".

      4. This last point is more a suggestion that may help avoid incorrect seal maintenance. In booklet 3.2, Chapter "Care of Vehicle Exterior", Washing by Hand, the owners manual recommends spraying rubber seals with silicone spray to help keep them pliable. If you read carefully it does state "do not spray the CSC roof seals".

      Chapter "Care of Vehicle Exterior", Cleaning the CSC Roof it clearly states "do not use cleaning or appearance products that contain silicone or acids on the CSC roof seals". This same statement is repeated in Chapter "Care of Rubber Seals", Caring for the Rubber Seals on the Rear Lid"

      To help prevent accidental application of silicone based products, VW may want to consider dropping the reference to Silicone under "Washing by Hand" and simply recommend G 052 172 A1 for all rubber seals.

      Kevin

      PS I couldn't find the "Krytox" literature where I read this: I seem to recall Dupont recommends protecting against skin absorbtion when using Krytox. Just a heads up that you may want to consider using a vinyl, latex, or nitrile, glove when applying the lubricant. Just to be on the safe side.
      "Wolfsburger.... Do you recall seeing this in the MSDS or other literature? if you have it handy, perhaps you could post a link"





      Modified by just4fun at 11:29 AM 2-20-2007


    14. Moderator just4fun's Avatar
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      02-20-2007 01:09 PM #14
      Hi Andy,

      Apart from assuring the seals get lubricated at least a 2-3 times a year, I think timing on the lubrication is a personal call. If you think the seals are looking dry, or they feel like they are no longer as suple as they should be, then they should be lubricated. The frequency will vary depending on weather, dust, how often you wash the car, etc.

      I picked our Eos on Saturday, and I was lubricating the seals 20 minutes later. They were dry at time of delivery. I would suggest, based on all the information gathered here on the forum, that you lubricate the seals at your earliest convenience, unless the dealer has lubricated the seals pre-delivery. IMHO.

      Kevin


    15. 02-20-2007 01:17 PM #15
      Kevin, thanks alot for that.We dont get alot of rain here,its just hot and dry so I think im gonna need a ton of the lubricant,thanks again Andy

    16. 02-20-2007 02:26 PM #16
      Quote, originally posted by just4fun »
      PS I couldn't find the "Krytox" literature where I read this: I seem to recall Dupont recommends protecting against skin absorbtion when using Krytox. Just a heads up that you may want to consider using a vinyl, latex, or nitrile, glove when applying the lubricant. Just to be on the safe side.
      "Wolfsburger.... Do you recall seeing this in the MSDS or other literature? if you have it handy, perhaps you could post a link"

      Everything I've seen seems to indicate Krytox is pretty safe to handle because its so stable and does not contain VOCs....its used in the food service industry and in cosmetics. Here's a quick Dupont link to the "Safety and Environmental FAQ". I'll look for my MSDS sheets from GM and VW...they have some safety and health info too.

      http://www.dupont.com/lubrican...afety

      There's related info in the 1st paragraph of the disposal section.
      http://www.dupont.com/lubrican....html




      Modified by WolfsburgerMitFries at 3:35 PM 2-20-2007


    17. 02-20-2007 03:03 PM #17
      Hi Michael, just to say what an excellent write up.
      Well done and thank you.

      I have passed your info and pics on to my dealer.

      I just wanted to point out that my UK manual, book 3.2, pages 24 to 30 relates to cleaning and care etc, but there is no reference to the Krytox or VW lubricant G052172.A1 etc.

      But on page 25 it says
      "if it is cold, dry the rubber seals and the surfaces they touch with a cloth to prevent them from freezing. Treat the rubber seals with a silicon spray-this does not apply, however, to the seals on the CSC roof"

      Page 26 says
      "Please do not use any silicon-based rubber care products or cleaners which contain acids on the seals of the CSC roof, such as industrial dust cleaners or insect removal products."

      Page 29 says
      If rubber seals are looked after, they will not freeze so quickly.
      Regularly apply a specialist care product to the rubber seals

      It does not advise what to use.

      Please do not get me wrong, I am not complaining, I am just pointing out the difference in the UK manuals.

      But I have ordered my krytox for future use.

      paul..



    18. 02-20-2007 03:25 PM #18
      When I bought my Jetta, I received a complimentary car wash kit complete with leather protectant. Given this, I am surprised VW does not provide some starter bottles with the EOS purchase. I think this would save them plenty in service department costs not to mention improve the PR on this as a potential issue.

      In addition, my sales person painstakingly covered the details on trivial items such as door locks and seat adjustment and finished up with asking me to take a survey of items covered on delivery. Seems your dealership has come upon an ideal addition to the delivery process and VW would be wise to include this in it's delivery survey.

      What better answer could a sales person give to a customer asking about leak issues than

      "Yes we understand it was an initial concern and we have addressed it by offering complimentary lubricant which we will show you exactly how and where to apply it on delivery of your new EOS. So what color were you interested in?"




      Modified by jgermuga at 3:31 PM 2-20-2007


    19. Moderator just4fun's Avatar
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      02-20-2007 04:04 PM #19
      original quote from kghia:
      If the car was not brand new, I would expect to have to do more maintanance, but I think that there is a reasonable expectation that the car will work if you have given it all of the proscribed maint.

      William,

      Just wanted to respond to your post in the other thread.

      I just wanted you to know, if I understand your post correctly, that I agree with you in principal. I just didn't become quite so frustrated with the situation as you seem to have.

      You will see in my post above, my hopes are that VW will respond to all the recent information acquired and make some minor changes to how they approach seal maintenance on the Eos. Specifically, lubrication of the seals at pre-delivery, include seal maintenance as part of the routine maintenance schedule at appropriate intervals, and provide additional, concise, information on seal maintenance in the owners manual.

      I think the roof seal discussion personifies exactly what these forums should be striving to acheive: improving the overall enjoyment and satisfaction of vehicle ownership.

      This thread started with Wolfsburger bringing seal maintenance to the forefront of our awareness, other members joined in, either by reporting their experiences (good or bad) or by participating in researching products and solutions. Micheal was ever present, trying to keep our discussion sane and on track. And now he has used his solid relationship with his dealer, to our advantage, by participating in identifying, trouble shooting, and repairing, a leak concern in the presence of a certified dealership representative.

      If VW monitors this forum, as Micheal suggests. That, in conjunction with a dealership now in a position to confirm the importance of seal maintenance, VW may involk the changes we suggest to the maintenance schedule.

      Mitigating this problem by including seal maintenance as part of the routine service schedule will go a long way to promote the reputation of the Eos in the worldwide automotive community.

      This will also help protect the thousands of Eos drivers, that don't participate here, that are possibly driving around blissfully unaware of potential seal problems.

      I understand you find this frustrating, and I'm not knocking your frustration, I just viewed it a bit differently. I was happy to be aware of the problem upfront, and, that I had some idea how to protect our Eos against experiencing the difficulty.

      I am also very pleased with the assistance provided by the vwvortex Eos community, and to know we appear to be on the brink of confirming a solution to a bothersome problem.

      Thank you to everyone on the forum for providing such a valuable resource.

      Kevin


    20. Moderator PanEuropean's Avatar
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      02-20-2007 05:00 PM #20
      Quote, originally posted by darien »
      The pinches on the moonroof, after you applied Krytox, were you guys able deformed the pinches back to normal stage? In another words, no more pinches?

      Hi Darien:

      Yes, for sure, we were able to get the those seals that run lengthwise along either side of the glass roof panel right back to normal after poking, lubricating, and massaging them. In fact, most of us guessed that the point of water entry into the car was right at those pinches (deformations), because the seal was no longer patent to the side of the glass panel.

      When we (the techs and I) first started working on those pinches, we were trying to dig the pinched part of the seal up out of the groove so that it would 'come back to normal' - see photo below. Then, someone suggested that we open the sunroof panel only - in other words, slide the glass roof back - and that would allow the deformed part to spring back to normal on its own. So, we did this, and it was much easier.

      NB: We also had to put a very thin film of lubricant on the outboard edge of the glass sunroof panel, where it abuts to the seal, to prevent the sunroof panel from pushing the seal back down into a deformed position. We applied only a very thin film to the vertical outboard edges of the sunroof panel - literally, we just took our fingers, which already had lubricant on them, and rubbed them on the side of the glass panel, at the point where the panel "chomps down" into the seal. Nothing more than that.

      Quote, originally posted by ialonso »
      ...I can move the seal with my hand, but after many krytox coats on the sun roof seal, the seal still gives on the sunroof, like the one on your picture...

      I know what you mean. Later the same day, I visited a different VW dealer while on my way to Chicago, and I saw a brand new Eos in the showroom, in perfect condition, but with pinched side seals on the sunroof.

      Again, here is the trick:

      1) Open sunroof panel.
      2) Apply lubricant to seals that run alongside either side of the sunroof. After about 5 minutes of massaging, they will absorb the lubricant and spring right back to their original shape.
      3) With your fingertip, apply the thinnest possible film of lubricant to the vertical sides (only) of the sunroof panel, from front to back, where the panel "chomps" down into the two roof seals that you just finished lubricating. This very thin layer of lubricant on the vertical outboard edges of the sunroof panel will prevent the sunroof panel from pulling the seals downwards when it drops into the closed position.


      Quote, originally posted by Timokreon »
      ...confirms my suspicions that many of the "problems" persons have been stating, of water leaks and rattles, results directly from not maintaining the seals.

      I agree 100%, and based on my experience, I strongly recommend that if there are any kind of roof leaks or rattles, the very first actions should be 'non-invasive' - in other words, cleaning and lubrication. Do your best to avoid any kind of disassembly or physical adjustments until you have exhausted every possible cleaning and lubrication alternative. I mean, heck, it's like medicine for humans - you want to avoid surgery at all costs if there is any other possible way to solve a problem. Surgery causes too many other (iatrogenic) problems.

      Quote, originally posted by Timokreon... »
      do you think it all possible you would be able to contact the head honchos in VW, give them your writeup, and PERHAPS VW would send this out to all dealerships as a TB, or maybe just a very important item that NEEDS to be done to EVERY EOS?

      After participating in this problem solving exercise at my VW dealer on Thursday of last week, I had lunch with a friend of mine who is an engineer at VW in Auburn Hills on Friday. He was part of the team that looked after tech support for the Eos launch, and he has been to Portugal to visit the assembly plant. I asked him if he would (informally, off the record) proofread my post. So, it's fair to assume VW of America has seen this post.

      It is in VW of America's best interest to promulgate suggestions, tech tips, technical bulletins, etc. that result in the happiest possible customers at the lowest possible costs. So, I am sure they will eventually take some action of some kind. Our experience in the Phaeton forum with similar troubleshooting efforts has been that VW watches what we, the enthusiasts, do, and if they see a good idea, they pick up on it. They may not be the fastest-reacting company on the planet, not what you might call "the first dog off the porch", but as I have said many times before, they are an honest company. Jeepers, it is in their economic best interest to promulgate this kind of information, if in fact it is the best solution to the problem. We don't yet know if it is the best solution - it is the best we (as an owner group) have come up with yet, but I will need to visit the factory in Portugal this spring to get a definitive answer about whether it is the best action to take or not.

      Michael

      Resolving the 'deformed seal' problem.
      It is much easier to do it the 'easy way' (not shown) than the 'hard way' (shown below)



      Modified by PanEuropean at 10:26 PM 7-8-2007


    21. Moderator PanEuropean's Avatar
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      02-20-2007 05:09 PM #21
      Quote, originally posted by ehdg eos »
      Thank you for the very informative post. Couple questions how often do they think the lubricant needs to be reapplied?

      Until we build experience that teaches us how long the lubricant remains effective, I think this is one of those tasks that will need to be done "on condition" - in other words, when needed.

      There are just too many variables from owner to owner to allow us to speculate on a fixed service interval. Someone who keeps their car indoors and washes it by hand might only need to do this once per year, if even that. Someone who parks outside (in sunlight and wind) and washes the car frequently at automatic car washes that use stronger chemicals for detergents might have to do it once every three months.

      It's a bit like brake pads. I have 38,000 miles on my Phaeton and my original front brakes pads and discs have not even reached the half-way point of wear. Friends of mine with the identical car have done their first brake job at 25,000 miles. It's entirely dependent on the environment that the car is used in.

      Another comparison would be rain repellent on aircraft windshields. If the plane flies around in a moist environment (e.g. Central Congo, or Asia during the monsoon season), the rain repellent lasts forever - at least 6 months. If the plane flies around in a desert area (e.g. Sahara) for 10 days, there won't be a trace of rain repellent left before even two weeks have elapsed.

      Quote, originally posted by ehdg eos »
      Second do you think most dealers can be talked into applying this before we take delivery of these cars when new?

      Well, personally, I think it is clearly in the best interest of the dealer to apply the lubricant to the car on the day of delivery. It will increase customer satisfaction, and greatly decrease warranty costs caused by the owner bringing the car back. It sure didn't take too long for the service staff at my dealership to decide that they were going to do this to every Eos sold on the day of delivery - I mean, the benefits are self-evident.

      Michael


    22. Moderator PanEuropean's Avatar
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      02-20-2007 05:27 PM #22
      Quote, originally posted by just4fun »
      ...Hopefully VW corporate will recognize this important maintenance procedure and encourage their worldwide dealer network to perform this task as part of every pre-delivery inspection for the Eos. (as per my previous post, my Eos was delivered with dry seals)

      A reasonable observation, but keep in mind that we have to allow this rather large company a certain amount of time to react. After all, we (as enthusiasts) didn't get this figured out until last week. Plus, although we believe that we are correct in our findings, our work has still not been reviewed by the staff at the assembly plant in Portugal, and they are the real experts. In the Phaeton forum, whenever we (owners) think we have figured out a better way to do things, or discovered a fix for a problem, we submit it to the assembly plant in Dresden for their professional review and criticism. We don't get too excited until we get word back from the assembly plant either approving our discovery, or telling us to go back to the drawing board. We here in the Eos forum do not (yet!) have that kind of relationship and the necessary contacts with the assembly plant in Portugal.

      Quote, originally posted by just4fun »
      ...Correct the statement "The Rear Window Element Must Not Lift Up!" in the section explaining how to access the sunroof seals for lubrication. It is necessary for the rear window element to lift up in order to access the "middle rear roof seal".

      I'm going to guess that the warning about the back part not lifting up is just a safety warning put in by the American lawyers, and has nothing at all to do with application of lubricant. But, we have to keep an open mind here - God forbid that we discover in a week or so that the rear seal (the one that runs side to side) is not supposed to be lubricated...

      Quote, originally posted by just4fun »
      ...This last point is more a suggestion that may help avoid incorrect seal maintenance. In booklet 3.2, Chapter "Care of Vehicle Exterior", Washing by Hand, the owners manual recommends spraying rubber seals with silicone spray to help keep them pliable. If you read carefully it does state "do not spray the CSC roof seals".

      Agreed, good point. The Eos has two very different types of seals. There are the seals on the roof, which have a rough (cat's tongue) texture when you feel them, and the seals on the doors (below the bodyline of the car when the roof is retracted) that are conventional and have a smooth surface. My guess (emphasis: Guess) is that you could probably use silicone on the conventional seals, in other words, the ones below the beltline of the car. But, for sake of clarity and to avoid any risk of someone confusing things, it would probably be best to use the special lubricant (Krytox) on everything, if in fact Krytox is suitable for use on conventional seals.

      None of us at my VW dealer knew the answer to this, so, we just left the conventional door and trunk seals alone. There was no complaint made about their performance, and the old adage "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" is well worth keeping in mind.

      Quote, originally posted by just4fun »
      ...To help prevent accidental application of silicone based products, VW may want to consider dropping the reference to Silicone under "Washing by Hand" and simply recommend G 052 172 A1 for all rubber seals.

      I'm with you 100% on this one, but again, we need to determine if G 052 172 A1 (Krytox) is suitable for use on conventional door and trunk lid seals.

      Quote, originally posted by just4fun »
      ...I seem to recall DuPont recommends protecting against skin absorption when using Krytox.

      Yeah, probably. But then again, the legal situation in the USA today is so bad that Avon is now putting warnings against skin absorption on their bottles of hand and face cream. I looked at the packaging material for Switzerland that came on the bottle - it didn't have any warnings on it - so, I figured, what the heck, why worry. I suppose that if I had a full time job lubricating Eos roofs I might be a little more cautious, but heck, 20 minutes exposure ain't gonna kill me. By the way, did anyone see where I left my bottle of MEK? I've gotta wipe up a bit of Krytox that dripped on the ground...


    23. 02-20-2007 06:07 PM #23
      Phenomenal write up Michael!!! This is information every Eos owner needs to know. Your analysis, investigation, and solution presented could not be any easier to follow, and the pictures remove any doubt as to what you did. Kudos to you! You really went the extra mile on this one

    24. 02-20-2007 06:46 PM #24
      Amazing. That is the word for this article, however, the time you put into documenting a process for a vehicle you don't yet have is stunning.

      I bought myself an 8oz tube of the krytox 205 based on the cost per ounce, and the research done by members of this forum. I've had it for a couple of weeks, but was waiting to apply the stuff to my car because I wasn't totally sure where or how to do it. In honesty, I was going to ask my dealer to show me what needs to be done.

      I'm going to try tonight, thanks to the detailed coverage and photos given by Michael. I assume that everyone is still in agreement that the 205 product will still work just as well... I chose it because of the "potential" for the liquid to drip, and I hate drips.

      Anyway, I felt it was important to say thanks to everyone who are helping to increase my EOS knowledge, and thereby making my enjoyment of the car much greater than I thought possible.

      SIDE NOTE: Michael, I host a server that runs a couple of forums-- granted, they have a smaller "membership"-- and know that being a moderator can be a thankless and often frustrating position, especially when it is a voluntary thing. With that in mind, thank you again for your efforts here, I'm impressed with the clean and efficient topics. Your efforts are noticed and appreciated.

      --Jonathan


    25. 02-20-2007 06:56 PM #25
      Great write up michael, Appreciate the explanation to everyone and i hope this clears up the HOW-TO side of things

    26. 02-20-2007 07:56 PM #26
      fantastic!
      I especially love the explanations of the easier way to do things (after having done it the hard way, and then said "Eureka!")
      I can relate to that, so I'm glad you saved me the step.

      I guess I have got to figure out the best place to buy liquid Krytox in a jug, and some of those bottles with tiny-tipped applicators. that WolfsburgerMitFries mentioned.

      William
      (are there no smiley's with tools in their hands? hmmm.... )


      Modified by kghia at 5:02 PM 2-20-2007


    27. 02-20-2007 08:36 PM #27
      Belive me, the best way is the krytox in a small bottle, application is easier and i'm not sure on the expiry

    28. 02-20-2007 08:51 PM #28
      Quote, originally posted by kghia »

      I guess I have got to figure out the best place to buy liquid Krytox in a jug, and some of those bottles with tiny-tipped applicators. that WolfsburgerMitFries mentioned.

      Actually I've found a much better source for precision liquid dispensing equipment. Its called Jensen Global.

      http://jensenglobal.com/

      If you go with luer needles, get the largest available (14 gauge).
      http://jensenglobal.com/cgi-bi....html

      or maybe the next sizes smaller (15 or 16 gauge). A 1 inch length is adequate, 1.5 inch is good too. The longer the needle, the more resistance to flow so stay away from the 3 inch for general purpose use. 100 series Krytox oil such as GPL-105 is too thick to easily flow through anything smaller than 16 gauge.

      There's also tapered Luer tips, Which I prefer so you don't scratch the paint if you accidentally drop the bottle.
      http://jensenglobal.com/cgi-bi....html

      They attach to luer lock caps such as this. Or syringes, if you find that easier.





      Modified by WolfsburgerMitFries at 2:42 PM 3-10-2007


    29. Moderator PanEuropean's Avatar
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      02-20-2007 10:38 PM #29
      Quote, originally posted by kghia »
      I guess I have got to figure out the best place to buy liquid Krytox in a jug, and some of those bottles with tiny-tipped applicators that WolfsburgerMitFries mentioned...

      William:

      You are going to have to take out a second mortgage on your house if you are planning to buy the special lubricant (Krytox) in a "jug". DuPont Corporation has the patent on Krytox sealed up nice and tight, and just like the big pharmaceutical companies, they are charging a pretty penny for the stuff.

      So far as dispensing it is concerned - if you buy the stuff that VW recommends (the part number given in the owner manual, which is G 052 172 A1, it comes in a very cleverly designed little bottle. You just cut the tip off the end of the nozzle at the first mark, and voila, you now have the perfect size hole for dispensing a thin, controlled stream of the liquid. When you are finished, you put the attached cap back over the top, and that seals it up.

      Because one bottle is more than enough to do two complete Eos vehicles, my guess is that there is really no need to buy the stuff in bulk. I cannot imagine anyone needing more than one bottle per year, maximum.

      Michael

      Cut the top of the nozzle with a sharp knife here

      You then get a perfect-size line of the fluid when you tip the bottle

      And the bottle comes with an attached cap



      Modified by PanEuropean at 10:28 PM 7-8-2007


    30. 02-21-2007 01:23 AM #30
      Incredibly valuable write up. I'm going to forward it to my Eos dealer before my first service (car delivered 12/8/06) next week. I have already confirmed the have the lubricant in stock, but I want to make sure they understand how to apply it correctly (or I will).

    31. Moderator PanEuropean's Avatar
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      02-21-2007 02:41 AM #31
      Thanks for the kind comment, Scott. I think everyone at my VW dealership had quite a bit of fun solving this problem (especially the initial water test, which soaked the dealer principal), and I am very grateful to my dealer for inviting me up to watch and document the whole process.

      A few of the pictures that I took last Thursday did not turn out well, so I could not include them in the original post. I went back to the dealer today, but the customer had picked up his Eos and was out driving it. Fortunately, there was another Eos in the showroom I could use for photos, so, here are a few "Tips and Tricks from the School of Hard Knocks" to help others get the best possible results in the future.

      Michael

      Some additional elaboration...





      Modified by PanEuropean at 10:31 PM 7-8-2007


    32. 02-21-2007 08:47 AM #32
      Fantastic write up from Michael - even I couldn't fail to get it right such was the clarity of the descriptions !!

      Quick reminder for UK owners -Krytox liquid and grease is available from gbrtech.co.uk - around £16 each.

      Peter


    33. Moderator just4fun's Avatar
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      02-21-2007 01:39 PM #33

      Matt,

      Just for information purposes.

      I was quoted $113.00 cdn at the VW dealership for the 30ml bottle. The parts person did offer a reasonable discount.

      However, you can purchase the liquid product in a .5 kg jug (approx. 240 - 300ml) direct from the Canadian Dupont Distributor for about 1/4 the price, per 30ml.

      The contact information can be found on this thread. http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2985944

      Realistically, if the seals only require lubricating once or twice a year, then the product cost from the VW dealer is actually insignificant. However if you want to lower the overall cost, you can consider the larger quantity at a significant long term savings.

      I don't recall seeing any documentation on the shelf life of this product, but I'm certain if it is stored in a sealed container to protect against contamination, it will last pretty much forever.

      Kevin




      Modified by just4fun at 11:40 AM 2-21-2007


    34. Moderator PanEuropean's Avatar
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      02-21-2007 06:15 PM #34
      Hi Kevin:

      DuPont also suggests that the Krytox lubricating products have a more or less indefinite shelf life - here is a link to their website: DuPont Krytox® Oils and Greases.

      I strongly recommend that Eos owners use the OIL, not a grease. If I had to buy lubricant for my own Eos, I would (at this moment in time) buy the little bottle of Volkswagen supplied lubricant - the G 052 172 A1 stuff - only because we all know without any doubt at all that that is the exact correct stuff to use. If you go browsing through the DuPont Krytox® website, you will see that 'Krytox®' is a brand name that is used for a whole family of fluorinated ether based lubricants (oils and greases), not a name for a specific viscosity of lubricant for Eos roof seals. In fact, if you look at the DuPont detail page, you can see that there is a very wide range of viscosities available.

      What we want to do, as owners, is maintain that very expensive and very sophisticated roof exactly the way VW suggests. Until we can find out the precise specification for the G 052 172 A1 lubricant - what its viscosity is, what grade it is, what other additives it may or may not have in it - I think we should stick to the safest path, which is to buy the little bottle from VW.

      I'm very much in favour of saving money wherever possible, and I am certainly not trying to 'plug' the VW product. However, at this moment in time, and in this particular case, I think we should take the safest route and use only what we KNOW works. By the time we all use up our initial bottle of lubricant, we will probably have found out what the exact specs for the VW G 052 172 A1 lubricant are, and probably identified a less expensive way of sourcing the exact same thing.

      One thing that I think it is important to stress - we want to use an OIL, not a GREASE. Greases have thickeners added to prevent them from being slung off of moving parts. The roof seals are not moving parts, and we want a lubricant that is 'oily' by nature so that it runs into all the crevices and can be easily absorbed by the seals.

      Michael


    35. 02-21-2007 06:49 PM #35
      Quote, originally posted by PanEuropean »
      Until we can find out the precise specification for the G 052 172 A1 lubricant - what its viscosity is, what grade it is, what other additives it may or may not have in it - I think we should stick to the safest path, which is to buy the little bottle from VW.
      Michael

      We can rule out any additives, when I pulled the MSDS Sheet, it 100% Krytox, no question about it. I'll try to re-do the picture later because it just cuts off skin contact information.




      Modified by WolfsburgerMitFries at 7:52 PM 2-21-2007


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