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How to solve (or prevent) Eos Roof leaks

434K views 332 replies 104 participants last post by  wcumming 
#1 · (Edited)
As many of you know, I don’t own an Eos. This makes it difficult to provide practical advice based on my own experience with the car, as I do in the Phaeton forum. The staff at my VW dealership (Volkswagen Richmond Hill) follow activities in the forum, and when a customer called to say that his Eos had a water leak, the service manager at my dealer invited me to come up and watch the problem-solving process.


The Eos with the water leak was the first Eos my dealer sold. It was delivered to the customer only a few days after the Eos went on sale here in North America. It has a fairly low VIN (in the 7,000’s), which suggests that it was probably built sometime in the summer of 2006. This is noteworthy, not because there is anything unique about a low VIN, but because the car is now 8 or 9 months old. This is certainly more than enough time for the seals on the car to dry out.
The owner of the Eos dropped it off at the dealership, and the first thing the technicians did was to have a look at the windows and roof to make sure that they were all operating smoothly and properly, and that all the measurements (especially the reference lines at the top of the window glass) were within specifications. No problems were found. The next step in the troubleshooting process was to carry out a ‘baseline water test’ to determine the extent of the leakage. The dealer principal sat in the driver seat, the windows were closed, and the car was flooded with large volumes of low-pressure water from a rather large hose in the wash bay. After about 30 seconds, he started honking the horn, and when the water was turned off, a very wet dealer principal emerged from the car. No doubt about it, the car leaked.
The leak manifested itself at the front left corner of the windshield, where the roof touches the top of the windshield. None of us knew where the water was getting in, but it was clear that the water was ‘getting out’- in other words, dripping into the cabin - at one specific location.
We all put our heads together to try and determine what the facts were. They were as follows:
1) The car was almost 9 months old, even though it was only delivered to the customer 5 months ago.
2) No-one had ever lubricated the rubber seals on the car.
3) The windows and roof all appeared to work properly, except for some deformation (pinching) of the seals on either side of the sunroof. This deformation appeared to be caused by the sunroof panel binding on the roof seal, and pulling part of the seal downwards.
4) All the technicians had been to Eos training.
5) All of us had read all the technical bulletins (TB’s) issued for the Eos.
6) None of us had ever read the owner manual.
7) No-one wanted to start any kind of dis-assembly. We wanted to try the ‘least invasive’ solutions first.
So, after we had all read the '3.2' section of the Owner Manual (this is the "Tips and Advice" section, and there is some really good information in there), and after some discussion, it was decided that since the owner manual suggests on page 25 of section 3.2 that the roof seals be lubricated with VW lubricant part number G 052 172 A1, maybe it would be a good idea to start by doing exactly that.
We ordered three bottles of lubricant. None of us knew how much would be needed, but we knew that the bottles were pretty small. Because the dealer principal was still wet from the baseline water test, he had no disagreement at all with the technician’s decision to order three bottles of lubricant. Because the lubricant would not arrive until the next day, we asked the PDI person to do a thorough detail of the car, to ensure that there was no dirt or other external influences on the car.
The next day, the lubricant arrived. We all took turns applying it – the technicians, myself, the PDI person, and some of the sales staff. We made some interesting discoveries:
1) An Eos has two different types of seals on it. Roof seals and the seals that windows touch are made of a different material than door seals or trunk lid seals.
2) These ‘different’ seals have sort of a rough texture, kind of like a cat’s tongue.
3) If the seals are dry (not lubricated), they will be quite hard, not pliable, and will not tightly conform to the window edge when the window is rolled up.
4) If the seals are dry, they have a dull finish, and sort of a ‘white’ luster to them.
5) It is easiest to lubricate the seals on either side of the sunroof if the sunroof is open.
6) It is easiest to lubricate the seal that goes across the middle rear of the roof if the roof is stopped partway through the retraction process, before the front part of the roof begins to lift off the windshield.
7) It is easiest to lubricate the windshield seal if the roof is fully retracted.
8) To lubricate seals at the top of the windows, put the lubricant on your finger, then rub it in.
9) If a seal looks deformed, rub lots of lubricant on it, and keep rubbing the seal until it ‘rehydrates’.
10) If you leave the roof open for an hour after doing the lubrication, the seals seem to suck up any excess lubricant that might be sitting on them.
After we finished lubricating all the seals, we conducted another water test. The results were “almost perfect”. There were no leaks from the roof, but there was a small leak – just a few drops – from the area beside the exterior rear view mirror on the driver side. Investigation revealed that we had lubricated the window seals there with the door closed, hence, we did not fully lubricate the seal – we missed the part that hides behind the exterior rear view mirror. After applying lubricant to this area, we carried out the water test again, and the result was perfection – after 15 minutes of hosing the car, not a single drop of water was found inside.
The PDI person dried off the car, and we noticed that there were greasy spots on the paint where we had unintentionally deposited excess lubricant. The excess lubricant can be easily removed from the painted surfaces with a paper towel and some windshield washer fluid – no fancy solvents are needed. Because the paint is not porous, the lubricant can’t sink into it.
Below are a whole bunch of photos that I took – hopefully this will explain the procedure better. Many thanks to all the service department staff at my VW dealer for their help making this post.
Michael
Eos Owner Manual - Page 25 of Section 3.2 (NAR English Version)

What it looked like before work began

When seals are not properly lubricated, they bind and get pinched, and as a result, do not keep water out.


Visual characteristics of a seal that needs lubrication

This is the stuff to use, simply because this is what the owner manual says we should use.

The alignment rack is a handy place to use to do the work.

Apply the lubricant sparingly, right out of the bottle (clip the top of the spout).





With the roof in this position, you can get the "butt ends" of the window seals, as well as the rear seal that runs horizontally across the roof.
Don't let the roof lift up from the windshield - otherwise, it will come back down on you!

Don't forget this seal.

...but, DO NOT LUBRICATE the fuzzy seal that touches the trunk lid.
This seal is obviously different from the others - it is fuzzy, not rubber.




 
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19
#152 ·
questions about lubrication

hey guys,
i've just registered here a few minutes ago and wanted to thank you for the great article about the treading of seals.
in the version of the user manual you get here with your eos, there's nothing mentioned about how to tread your seals. and this part number isn't written down in the whole user manual.
i've also lubricated my seals with this volkswagen oil and that's where my questions start:
-) on one of the photos after finishing lubrication you've got this bottle half empty - after i was done, there was only missing little from the oil. my seals are really "wet" though so how did you work with this?
-)also you wrote that it would be best to leave the car open for some hours so the seals can suck in the oil. i was looking at my seals a few minutes ago and there have almost past 32 hours since lubricating but my seals don't seem to suck up this stuff completely, they're still wet and leaving stripes to my windows. have i done something wrong??
maybe i'm a little bit too concerned about this, but hopefully you can give me some answers to my questions

thanks,
rainZn
 
#154 ·
Re: How to solve (nette)

Quote, originally posted by nette »
Used my $87.00 bottle of magic on all of the seals...

Effective April 1 2007, it is now a $51 bottle of magic. VW of America was thoughtful enough to take action on the suggestion made by of all of us here in the Vortex Eos forum to 'do their best to lower the price of the stuff'. VW has to buy it from DuPont, so, they can't drop the price any lower. To the best of my knowledge, they are now selling this stuff to the dealer network at their cost - in other words, they are not making any profit on it. The Eos support team at VW of America realizes that they lower they can get the cost of this lubricant, the more likely it will be that everyone (VW dealers and Eos owners) will use it as instructed - and that, we all know, will prevent a whole lot of problems.
Michael
 
#158 ·
Last week I lubricated with the 205 grease, because that is what aI had. I do not have direct experience with the oil soi don't have a direct comparison. the grease was not as messy as I thought that it would be but there is some rgrease at the top of the windows. At the time I tried to wipe off excess I will probably try again soon.
There roof was in stacked position on top of the car. In one of my less bright moments I manually lowered the panel with the rear window in place from a stacked position. This put some panels out of order andf the roof would not operate. I had the car towed to VW (Trunk was swung back). VW was able to move each panel independently to get them back in sequence.
Paul
 
#159 ·
Re: Grease vs. Oil (PanEuropean)

Quote, originally posted by PanEuropean »

The oil is pretty quickly absorbed into the seals of the car and it does not attract dust once it soaks in (about an hour or two


but that's the problem i have.
i used the oil written in the manual, but it does not soak in completely!
the seals are still "wet" and on some places like on the left and right rear window it seems like the oil is dropping down because it won't soak in.
i really haven't used that huge amount of oil.
 
#160 ·
Re: Grease vs. Oil (rainZn)

Quote, originally posted by rainZn »

but that's the problem i have.
i used the oil written in the manual, but it does not soak in completely!
the seals are still "wet" and on some places like on the left and right rear window it seems like the oil is dropping down because it won't soak in.
i really haven't used that huge amount of oil.

I used about 1/3 bottle when I did my seals, but I did pretty much every seal on the car, including the trunk lid seal and the lower and outer door seals. (some of these are not necessary to do)
I applied the oil about 3 months ago, and although I have not experienced any dripping, I have noticed that the seals continue to have an oily film. I think this is normal.
If you used very little oil, and it is wet to the point it is almost dripping or running, I'm wondering if your seals were already well lubricated and did not need to lubricated so soon?
I have found that after a day or two the majority of the oil soaks in, and just a film is left on the seals.
If you think they are too wet, just wipe them off gently with a soft, lint free, cloth.
Kevin
 
#161 ·
Re: Grease vs. Oil (just4fun)

i have got my eos for 8 months now and nobody cared about the seals until last weekend.
some of my seals had been changed and replaced because of leaking when the car was standing in the rain for too long or washing it. (this was a problem since i've gotten the car
)
so i think not every problem can be solved by lubricating the seals, but i thought it would not be that bad to try this because my seals looked like the ones on the photos (white and hard) but "rehydrated" very fast.
after some thin lines on the seals and working with my fingers they were done.
so now i'm wondering why they don't even seem to suck up this little amount of oil completely.
 
#162 ·
Re: Grease vs. Oil (rainZn)

Quote, originally posted by rainZn »
i have got my eos for 8 months now and nobody cared about the seals until last weekend.
some of my seals had been changed and replaced because of leaking when the car was standing in the rain for too long or washing it. (this was a problem since i've gotten the car
)
so i think not every problem can be solved by lubricating the seals, but i thought it would not be that bad to try this because my seals looked like the ones on the photos (white and hard) but "rehydrated" very fast.
after some thin lines on the seals and working with my fingers they were done.
so now i'm wondering why they don't even seem to suck up this little amount of oil completely.


Hmmm.. That is interesting. Your seals definitely were showing signs of requiring lubrication.
When I open the roof, and look along the seal that runs the top length of the windshield, there is a shiny, oily strip down the center the full length of the seal. (where the roof panel contacts the seal). This seal is still "wet" after 3 months.
Around the windows, when first applied you can see the wet oil under the glass, after a few days the wet look disappears, but the windows still get an oily film around the outer edges, and require regular cleaning.
Does this seem to be about how oily your seals remain? Or are they "dripping" wet.
Kevin
 
#163 ·
Re: Grease vs. Oil (just4fun)

the seal on the roof you're talking about looks fine i think (still oily but not wet - but it catches small parts of dust - is this also happening with your seals?)
the windows also need to be cleaned, but i know that's just the way it goes when you're working with oily substances.
the main "problem" i have is here (where the red lines or spots are the oil is running down on the window from the seal on both sides - still after 2 days):



Modified by rainZn at 8:36 PM 5-14-2007
 
#164 ·
Re: Grease vs. Oil (rainZn)

Quote, originally posted by rainZn »
the seal on the roof you're talking about looks fine i think (still oily but not wet - but it catches small parts of dust - is this also happening with your seals?)
the windows also need to be cleaned, but i know that's just the way it goes when you're working with oily substances.
the main "problem" i have is here (where the red lines or spots are the oil is running down on the window from the seal on both sides - still after 2 days):


Modified by rainZn at 8:36 PM 5-14-2007

Yes, dust, etc. does tend to collect a bit on the top seals.
No, I have never had oil "run" down the window from the area you have identified.
I'm not sure why the seal would not be absorbing the majority of the oil you applied.
Kevin
 
#165 ·
Re: Grease vs. Oil (rainZn)

Hi Rainer:
I found that I had to 'massage' the seal a bit to cause it to absorb the lubricant. In other words, if I just put the lubricant onto the seal and left it there, it ran off the car, and not too much went into the seal. But, if I applied the lubricant, then rubbed the seal for a minute or so, I could feel that the seal was getting softer and more pliable all the time. I considered this to be evidence that the seal was absorbing lubricant.
But - it will not voluntarily absorb the lubricant, the same way a biscotti will absorb coffee. It is more like what you have to do when you are applying a marinade to a steak - you kind of have to knead it and poke it a bit, to convince the liquid to go into the steak.

Michael
 
#168 ·
Re: How to solve (rainZn)

fabulous!! I printed out the instructions, but the text between the images always wanted to go AFTER an image, even though it referred to the image following it (ie. it was BEFORE the proper image)
The PDF really organizes the text and images (although it is a lot of pages-- no clipping or resizing images)
Thanks!
You might be able to host it at TheSamba.com, since it is in effect a freely distributed technical reference.
(it is freely distributed right Michael? We have the right to re-publish, distribute, reproduce, maybe add our own tips, etc those instructions??)
William
 
#170 ·
I'm still having leaks. After takint the car to another dealer, this mechanic did a great job of aligning the top. This top seals have never looked better. I thought the leak should stop. Guess what! It now leaks on both sides. I'm begining to think the problem may be in the header seal between the pillars underneath the steel structure, just can't see where the water is seeping in at.
 
#171 ·
Re: (GWMotley)

Everybody in here follows the seal maintenance and leakage issue pretty closely, and I have a thought on the matter...
There have been rumors of design change/improvement in the seals, which may be a change in physical shape, but it might also be a change to the coating. I took a test drive recently, and the vertical window seals on the car I drove looked like the coating was somewhat smoother than on the first Eos I had seen in August 2006. Which gave me this idea...
I think it would be a good idea for all Eos owners participating in this forum, particularly those dealing with leakage issues, to put the date of manufacture of their Eos in the signature line of their profile so we can see if problematic cars tend to fall within certain dates.
anybody else think that's a good idea?
 
#172 ·
Re: (WolfsburgerMitFries)

Quote, originally posted by WolfsburgerMitFries »

I think it would be a good idea for all Eos owners participating in this forum, particularly those dealing with leakage issues, to put the date of manufacture of their Eos in the signature line of their profile so we can see if problematic cars tend to fall within certain dates.
anybody else think that's a good idea?

I will create such a signature line as you suggest, as long as I can figure out how to do so.
Edit: Did it!

Modified by SoCalMan at 8:05 AM 5-25-2007


Modified by SoCalMan at 8:07 AM 5-25-2007
 
#175 ·
Re: (BigFoot-74205)

Quote, originally posted by BigFoot-74205 »
Michael & everyone else,
I was just wondering, is G 052 172.A1 VW's international product code for Krytox, or is it just for North America?
Damir

The part number should be consistent throughout the world.
Here's the discussion from the German Beetle blog from September 2005 discussing Volkswagen part numbers and Dupont equivalent part numbers.
http://www.beetle-forum.de/Kry....html
And here's a google translation of the same discussion for those interested. As you can see they were trying to buy directly to save some money.
http://translate.google.com/tr...3Dall
 
#176 ·
Re: (WolfsburgerMitFries)

Jeremiah,
Thanks for the reply. The thing is, I was at my dealer yesterday and all the part numbers are in the NNN-NNN-NNN format. They're basically not sure what to order (I want Krytox of course). A while ago they were offering me a silicon based lubricant (I didn't buy it). We found one product which based on the description should be it, but we're not 100%. The product code was 000-096-331. Oh well, I'll keep digging and I don't find any useful info I'll just order that and make sure it's actually Krytox once they get it in.
Damir
 
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