How to solve (or prevent) Eos Roof leaks

[hulahoops]

I would like to add my thanks to you too Michael.

After my experience I wish I had bought the G 052 172 A1 as you recommend, instead of the GPL205 grease. I think I will try to remove as much of the grease as I can from the seals as it is making a bit of a mess of the paintwork and glass. It doesn't just wipe off...I spent a long time at the weekend removing the sticky smudges. My UK VW dealer didn't list the A1 liquid when I enquired mid-Jan, only the A2 spray or A3 paste. Has anyone managed to get hold of the A1 liquid in the UK?

Simon

[just4fun]

Quote, originally posted by PanEuropean »

If I had to buy lubricant for my own Eos, I would (at this moment in time) buy the little bottle of Volkswagen supplied lubricant - the G 052 172 A1 stuff - only because we all know without any doubt at all that that is the exact correct stuff to use.

Micheal,

I was about to go off on a detailed tangent about how certain I was we have already determined exactly what G 052 172 A1 is when it hit me like an ice pick in the forehead.

This is very similar to the warranty issues discussed in length with regard to motor oils, you have to be sure you are using a product that meets VW specifications to conform to warranty requirements.

I am confident Wolfsburger's research is sound, however, in the interests of protecting the warranty on the roof seals, I agree with you; until such time the composition is 100% confirmed, the recommendation is to use the VW product # G 052 172 A1.

You have my 100% support with regard to your recommendation.

Kevin

[PanEuropean]

Quote, originally posted by WolfsburgerMitFries »

... it is 100% Krytox, no question about it.

Hi Wolfsburger:

I hear what you are saying, but I'm not entirely sure that you are hearing what I am saying.

If you describe a product as '100% Krytox®', that's a bit like saying it is '100% Seagrams', or '100% Nestlé', or '100% IBM'. Krytox® is not a name of a specific product (for example, like Canadian Club whisky, Nescafe instant coffee, or ThinkPad notebook computers, all specific products made by the previously mentioned companies), it is a trademark that is used to describe a whole range of fluorinated ether based oils, greases, and synthetic lubricants. This is why I was careful to use the phrase 'special lubricant' in my post, rather than referring to the stuff as 'Krytox®'.

I'm not a chemist, so I can't speak with any knowledge about the differences between all the different Krytox® oils, greases, and synthetic lubricants, however, so far as the Eos is concerned, we want to be absolutely certain that we are getting the exact correct viscosity of the product that has been formulated with the exact correct dispersion and volatility characteristics that best suit lubrication of the roof seals. This is what I was getting at when I suggested that until we know precisely what the specification is of the product that comes in the little bottle from VW (VW's part number G 052 172 A1), we just buy that bottle and play it safe.

I am pretty sure that within a few months - certainly by the end of the summer, anyway - we will have determined the exact specs for the particular Krytox® product that comes in the bottle from VW. Until then, I'm suggesting that we not take the risk of making a mistake and applying the wrong product.

Michael

Which Krytox®? All of the following are 100% Krytox®

Here's a partial screenshot of the DuPont Krytox MSDS listing



Modified by PanEuropean at 11:46 PM 7-8-2007

[PanEuropean]

Quote, originally posted by hulahoops »

My UK VW dealer didn't list the A1 liquid when I enquired mid-Jan, only the A2 spray or A3 paste. Has anyone managed to get hold of the A1 liquid in the UK?

Hi Simon:

If your owner manual contains a reference to the G 052 172 part number with the A1 suffix (as the North American owner manuals do), I suggest you show it to your VW parts specialist and ask him or her to get you that exact product. If that exact product is not listed in the VW UK parts catalog, your parts specialist can get it by placing what is known as a 'red' order. I encountered a similar problem here in North America last month getting a replacement wheel well liner for a W12 powered Phaeton - the W12 liner has a vent in it and a part number suffix 'R', the North American ETKA catalog only showed a liner without a vent and a part number suffix of 'Q'. After talking with one of our 'forum friends' at VW of America, I found out you can order anything you want from anywhere in the world if you place what is called a 'red' order. All you need to do this is a good reason - and listing of a specific lubricant in the owner manual is a pretty good reason.

By the way - you might want to suggest to your parts specialist that he or she launch the ETKA parts catalog, but instead of selecting "Eos" and proceeding in the normal way to search for an Eos part, instead go to the menu button in the upper right, select 'Special Catalogs', then select 'Chemical Materials', then when the new page pops up, select 'Servicing Materials', and simply scroll down the list until G 052 172 A1 appears - the list is in numerical order. See the screen-shot below.

Michael

VW Parts Catalog Screenshot



Modified by PanEuropean at 11:47 PM 7-8-2007

[darien]

Quote, originally posted by PanEuropean »

Yes, for sure, we were able to get the those seals that run lengthwise along either side of the glass roof panel right back to normal after poking, lubricating, and massaging them. In fact, most of us guessed that the point of water entry into the car was right at those pinches (deformations), because the seal was no longer patent to the side of the glass panel.

Hi Michael:

Thanks. I finally got one of the pinches formed back to normal. Hooray!! That pinch was at the center of the left side moonroof seal. However, the right side's seal is still deformed. It looks exactly like that picture you shown. It's deformed at the end part of the moonroof's seal. Much more deformed than the left side.

I applied and massaged the right side (pinch) again this afternoon and simply let the roof down overnight so that the seals were able to fully absorb the lubricant.

Now, how many attempts did you guys try to get that "stubborn" pinch to bounce back to normal? My goal is to at least get those pinches back up to normal. Of course, I haven't try hosing any water on my car, but I am also suspecting that the moonroofs' pinches were the point of water into the car. Any more advice you can provide me? Thanks in advance!


Modified by darien at 10:12 PM 2-21-2007

[PanEuropean]

Hi Darien:

We found it quite easy to get the 'pinched' (deformed) areas of the seals at the side of the glass panel back to normal, even though we did most of the work the hard way - with the glass panel in the closed position, using our fingers (covered with special lubricant) to dig the seal up and move it back to its normal position - as shown in the photo below.

Honestly, I don't think it took us more than 5 minutes total time to fix the seal deformations on each side of the vehicle. The seals popped back up into thier original (desired) shape without any difficulty.

What we did notice - which is worth remarking about - is that after we had dug the seals out of their pinched position, when we then opened and closed the glass sunroof panel, the friction from the side of the glass panel moving downwards to its flush position then squashed the seals back to their original (deformed) position. This didn't impress any of us, so, we opened the glass panel again, rubbed a tiny bit of the special lubricant on the side of the glass panel, and then closed it. When it closed the second time, it didn't disturb the side seals at all, everything worked perfectly.

It might, perhaps, be better to dig out the pinched (deformed) portions of the side seals whilst the glass sunroof panel is closed, simply because the presence of the closed sunroof panel forms kind of a 'mould' to assist in coaxing the rubber seal to return to its original shape. This is just speculation on my part.

Did you find that when you lubricated the deformed side seal (presumably you did this with the glass roof panel open) that the seal retained its original deformed shape? If so, then maybe it might be best to lubricate deformed seals with the glass sunroof panel open - simply because this is the easiest way to get access to all portions of the seal - then to run a greasy fingertip along the sides of the glass roof panel, close the glass roof panel, then dig out any deformations that may remain with your fingertip and then leave the glass roof closed for a while, so that the seal is forced to re-learn the desired shape. Again, just a guess, just speculation.

I really need to go buy an Eos so I have one I can refer to myself...

Michael

The 'hard way' - maybe this might actually be 'the most efficient way', so far as deformations are concerned?

[WolfsburgerMitFries]

Quote, originally posted by PanEuropean »

I hear what you are saying, but I'm not entirely sure that you are hearing what I am saying.

There's a lot of topics to cover...I'm not going to get them all, it would make for a post that was too large at one time.

There have been a lot very good points in this entire seal maintenance conversation, and I'm sure many people are following with this topic with great interest, so I'm going to start off with the observation that it would be in everyones best interest to accelerate the process of finding out out exactly what grade of Krytox is in the G 052 172 A1 bottle (for those who still need convincing)...however since the MSDS sheet does not reference an exact DuPont number, it may not be possible to produce a "holy grail" document concretely linking G 052 172 A1 to a specific viscosity (for example) GPL-105. So everyone interested in this topic is going to have to eventually ask themselves how much convincing they individually need.

I am still very passionate about providing information about purchasing from an alternate source, simply because of the enormous cost difference. Competition keeps people honest. A ½ KG jug of liquid Krytox is $155, which is more than 8X the quantity of Krytox in Volkswagens G 052 175 A1 which costs $95.

Based on use of one 30Ml bottle per year, you can currently buy an 8+ year supply for $155 if you can do without the Volkswagen bottle, or you'll pay $760 for the VW re-label. That's a $605 difference (actually slightly more), and a no brainer to me. You'll come out ahead in the middle of the 2nd year.

Now I do understand there's many different varieties of Krytox (71 as you pointed out) but come on, its obvious in the comprehensive list that there's greases (any of the 200 series part numbers), vacuum pump oils, food service numbers, Japan market products...the bulk of those you can instantly ignore, so lets not drag a red herring through the issue and over complicate it.

Krytox oils are 100 series, and "GPL" is for General Propose Lubricants which are the auto industry standard for control of squeaks and rattles (S&R). I keep pointing to this automotive industry specific DuPont news letter which everyone interested should read very carefully because it gives the exact part numbers for the purposes we (and the auto industry in general) are interested in.
http://www2.dupont.com/Lubrica...2.pdf
It examines the industry standard GPL-105 to thinner viscosity variants GPL-104 and GPL-103, and it appears that DuPont, based on extensive cycle tests, seems to think that there is cause to inform the auto industry that thinner variants might be a better idea because they appear to offer a lower coefficient of friction, particularly as time increases. I'm going to have to hold off on elaborate discussions concerning Krytox viscosity in this post, its a lot and would get far too wordy and off track.

There's always someone who wants to discuss warranty related issues, so I'll quickly touch on that. It appears that there's no recommended Krytox application interval, nor does the owners manual say the Krytox treatments are mandatory. So I think we can relax about what is in reality a liability conversation.

Michael, I understand you are very passionate about Volkswagens, you have an outstanding relationship with your dealer, you have contacts within the corporate structure of VW, you're a moderator on several forums...after all that, you're a strict company man. It would be disingenuous to think that those factors are not skewing your preference and recommendation exclusively toward the VW labeled bottle. I also understand that there's going to be people who will not rest unless they have the exact VW bottle that is pointed to in the owners manual. In those cases, you will be the people buying your Krytox at the VW parts counter.

In my case, I'm completely confident that my Krytox from a 3rd party vendor that costs a little over $19 an ounce is going to offer the exact same performance characteristics as your Krytox for $95 an ounce.

The reason I re-posted the MSDS picture up several posts above is to clearly show that the contents of the VW bottle is NOT some proprietary mixture of Krytox plus mystery additives for Volkswagens exclusive use on retractable hardtops...VW part number G 052 175 A1 existed long before the Eos, and its simply Krytox in oil form. Its NOT an Eos specific chemical, and I think its important to remember that.

So now we have both approaches up for people to examine and they can pick what they feel comfortable with.

Modified by WolfsburgerMitFries at 1:25 PM 2-24-2007

[PanEuropean]

Quote, originally posted by WolfsburgerMitFries »

Michael, I understand you are very passionate about Volkswagens, you have an outstanding relationship with your dealer, you have contacts within the corporate structure of VW, you're a moderator on several forums...after all that, you're a strict company man. It would be disingenuous to think that those factors are not skewing your preference and recommendation exclusively toward the VW labeled bottle.

Hi Wolfsburger:

You are correct with your assessment above. I'm very much an OEM person, in the sense that I only make modifications that are strictly OEM, and I generally follow the VW service recommendations pretty carefully. So, yes, in that sense, I am 'a strict company man'. However, I just want to make sure that you appreciate that I am not recommending that folks use the VW special lubricant just to put cash in VW's till... I'm only recommending it because we are not yet absolutely, positively certain what the specification for an exact replacement of the VW product is.

What I am going to do is write a letter to Volkswagen of America today, and ask if there is anything they can possibly do to lower the price of the G 052 172 A1 special lubricant. After all, it is in their best interest to get as many people as possible (dealers and owners) using that lubricant. We have a car that has won all sorts of awards, a car that most people acknowledge that it is a far superior car than similar competitive offerings, but VW is getting pilloried over roof leaks, squeaks, callbacks, even buybacks because the required lubricant is kind of expensive.

So, let's work on it from both ends - you try to find out what the DuPont part number is for the exact same stuff, and I will try to get VW to take a second look at the price they are charging for the lubricant that is distributed through the VW dealer network.

Michael

[Grinder]

Which Dupont product exactly is the same as the VW product; GPL 105?

I just received the grease GPL 205, It sounds like this is not absorbed as well as the oil.

Michael, thank you for the write up. I don't have the manual in front of me. Are there any seal that should not be lubricated?

Paul

[theothereos]

Wolfsburger & Michael,

Thanks to both of you for the amazing wealth information you both bring to this forum. Your posts are well done, informative and valued.

-dawn

P.S. As an EOS owner who had a leak which was resolved - I have to toss a vote in for the Krytox gel.

[EOSmage]

I already have a tube of the 205 grease. While I will probably not be using it on the EOS-- as was originally planned-- I'm not regretting the purchase. It has a plethora of other uses around the house that will make it a valuable member of the "toolbox".

As for the EOS roof seals, to be safe, I've got my local VW parts guy bringing in a bottle of the VW branded stuff. This will be a temporary "keep the roof working properly" solution until we find out if VW will flex on the price, or we have the Krytox part number that matches the VW one.

Whatever the outcome, I still know more about the EOS and various lubricants than before I started reading the forums-- and in my mind, that's what these forums are all about!

Thanks to everyone.

--Jon

[just4fun]

Wolfsburger,

The MSDS you posted, is that from VW or Dupont.

Kevin

[WolfsburgerMitFries]

The VW MSDS sheets are 7 pages per part number. The key human hazard appears to be that liquid Krytox can be an eye irritant. Its definitely not a carcinogen, there's 2 testing bodies referenced at the bottom.

Section 2 is continued onto the next page with references to OSHA and Prop 65. My apologies for the smallish photo sizes, I'm trying to keep from throwing the width of this thread out of whack.

I had to splice 2 pages for section 8. The first sentence is useful for anyone wondering about being surrounded be Krytox all the time they are in the car.

You can compare that to how the GM MSDS sheet reads.

Modified by WolfsburgerMitFries at 10:44 PM 2-22-2007

[cb391]

I just wanted to add this bit of info. For all those living in an area where there may be be multiple VW dealers, you might want to call them as they may not all be selling at the same price. I called 5 dealers today and got prices ranging from $71 to $102 for G 052 172 A1. I know some of you may still want the DuPont product and that is ok. But for those who don't, you may not have to pay the higher OEM prices if you shop around.

[WolfsburgerMitFries]

I just called VW my dealer, they priced G 052 172 A1 at $71.07

Here's the fun part. Upon looking up the part number I gave, and seeing the price, the counterman said, "does that come in a bucket?" I had a very satisfying laugh with myself, then I said "no...its 1 ounce". To which he replied "ouch". Ouch indeed.

That will be $80,000 sir.

Modified by WolfsburgerMitFries at 11:44 PM 2-22-2007

[PanEuropean]

I kind of suspect that if we can get the various teams at VW of America talking to each other - in other words, get the support engineers and the marketing people to speak to the parts distribution people and tell them that it would be in everyone's best interest to drop the price of this G 052 172 A1 lubricant to the lowest possible level - then parts will drop the price.

My guess (as always, just a guess) is that there is a hard-working, well-intentioned employee somewhere in the parts distribution section of VW who originally looked at this lubricant and thought "Well, we might as well price that so that there is a reasonable markup on it - after all, we lost $1 billion in North America last year", but that same hard-working, well-intentioned employee is not aware that it would save VW tens of thousands of dollars if the lubricant was inexpensive enough that dealers and owners could buy it without a second thought and use it whenever they need it.

I bet that everyone who has ever worked for a large company in the past (or presently) can recognize this exact scenario from their own personal experience... ...the right hand often doesn't know what the left is doing in big organizations.

Michael

[kghia]

Interestingly, my dealership has a location in the city in which I live, and in the city in which I work, and they are selling for different prices

The dealership in Winston Salem is selling for MSRP = $71.+
The dealership in Greensboro is selling for $78.18, and admitted there was a markup over MSRP when I asked.

Truly shopping around can make a difference!

William

[EurovanTastic]

Now, this only my opinion, but i think a very smart move by the dealer on the sales level would be to supply the customer with 1 bottle of the vw product or even get VW of america to supply it with the car. Even a quick explanation by the sales consultant about application would be useful as well.

Mabye it's too much to hope that VW will include a small insert in the owners manual about application.

I would love to mention it to them and see what comes of it

The EOS is a beautiful car and well, not the cheapest, supplying this to the customer would be a smart move on behalf of VW....but what do i know?..

My dealer sells the stuff for $93.00 CN, if anyone's interested



Modified by EurovanTastic at 4:59 PM 2-22-2007

[PanEuropean]

Quote, originally posted by EurovanTastic »

Now, this only my opinion, but i think a very smart move by the dealer on the sales level would be to supply the customer with 1 bottle of the vw product...

Agreed. That is what my own VW dealer has decided to do - they are going to lubricate the Eos roof seals on the day of delivery to the customer (not the day that the PDI is done, but the day of delivery), and then give the customer the remainder of the bottle of special lubricant, along with providing instructions about how to use it.

The trick will be to get all the knowledge we have accumulated in this discussion disseminated out to all the other VW dealers. My guess is that most dealers will see that lubricating the roof seals on the day of delivery is self-serving - it will increase customer satisfaction and decrease callbacks and warranty claims. It's not too hard to come to a policy decision when you look at it that way.

Michael

[kghia]

Quote, originally posted by PanEuropean »

Agreed. That is what my own VW dealer has decided to do - they are going to lubricate the Eos roof seals on the day of delivery to the customer (not the day that the PDI is done, but the day of delivery), and then give the customer the remainder of the bottle of special lubricant, along with providing instructions about how to use it.

That sounds wonderful, although they should also lubricate them when they receive them at the dealer, as both of the Eos's on my dealer's lot have dry, white-spotted seals worse than mine.

Having the top work its best when showing off to potential buyers also serves the dealers well.
(this esp. occurs to me given the talk about how old the Eos may already be before it is sold.)
Of course, for those lucky enough to have real custom-ordering, the Eos may be showing up just for a brief inspection before it is taken home.

William

[PanEuropean]

Quote, originally posted by kghia »

...although they should also lubricate them when they receive them at the dealer...

I don't think that any of us have sufficient product knowledge to make that statement. Lubrication addresses squeak and leak issues, not operational issues.

Michael

[kghia]

several people have complained of leaks from the first day, and I believe that someone (grubbygirl?) said that there was water in a side pocket at the dealer's.

Leaking IS an operational issue-- the roof & seals are not operating propperly in the keep-out-water function. Seals operating quietly also earned the Eos an extra year in development.(the wind problem)

Doesn't it make sense to prevent the squeaks and leaks BEFORE sales, so that no (additional) customers find problems in the lot while considering purchase?

I tell you, if I were looking at a new $30k+ car and saw water inside, that would probably settle it right then, at least for that particular car, if not the entire model.

William
ps. I did have a car dealer show me a Ghia with water in the pass. floor. He said "oh it rained last night and the window was cracked open"-- and then did nothing! I wanted to clean it up myself! That was one of several reasons to not buy that Ghia, made me wonder what reasons I didn't see.

[lonerthx]

As a follow up to my earlier post, we had several hours of heavy rain yesterday and last night.

I now have no leaks.

FYI - I used the 205 grease which I bought in the 8oz tube. I did find it easy to apply and it did get easy absorbed into the seals, making them softer and more pliable.

But, and it's only a small matter, I believe the G 052 172 A1 product is the better solution and I will be switching to it for the visible seals at least.. I feel the 205 leaves to much of a greasy residue on the seals that will smear in places if you are not careful.

[vweosdriver]

Got mine at $71 minus 10% because of my VWCA membership. Dealer gives 10% off parts, labor and accesories for members.

[EurovanTastic]

excellent........i'm glad to hear they will be supplying it to customers!!

[Higgs Boson]

I called my dealer's parts dept and ordered a bottle right after I read Michael's outstanding write-up. The guy quoted me $71 dollars and then said, "Woah, what is this?" I told him all about this forum and suggested they check it out. Then I said, "Can you help me out on the price seeing as I just bought the Eos not a month ago?" He gave me 10% off.

So, it never hurts to ask.

[Timokreon]

Good morning everyone

An update on pricing. I have found that vw-auto-parts.com sells the VW labeled liquid krytox for $51.00. You just need to put in the VW part number, and away you go.

Looks like it might take 2 weeks or so to get the liquid, but, you're saving quite a bit of money.

Enjoy all!


Modified by Timokreon at 10:23 AM 2-24-2007

[PaulZooms]

I could not find the oil on that site. A few pointers would be appreciated, Tim.

[just4fun]

Found this one for $53.50 plus shipping at $9-$12.

http://www.trademotion.com/par...13714

Kevin

[Timokreon]

Yeah, it goes to trademotion.com after clicking on "vw parts". From there, put in the VW code for the liquid, the "g 052 172 a1", and it will come up.

They must have raised the price already... Mine was $51 and free shipping via usps.

[WolfsburgerMitFries]

Quote, originally posted by Timokreon »

Yeah, it goes to trademotion.com after clicking on "vw parts". From there, put in the VW code for the liquid, the "g 052 172 a1", and it will come up. They must have raised the price already... Mine was $51 and free shipping via usps.

That's a good point. With the magic of the computer age also comes adaptive price software. If an item starts selling rapidly (for example, because someone puts information or a link in an internet chat room) the pricing software at the vendor in question automatically adapts based on the increased demand and raises the price. Many retailers, both online and in real life have adaptive price software, so if you might want to be careful what you post on the internet. You can very easily kill the goose that laid the golden egg, so to speak.


Modified by PanEuropean at 6:55 PM 2-24-2007

[Bster67]

Quote, originally posted by Timokreon »

Yeah, it goes to trademotion.com after clicking on "vw parts". From there, put in the VW code for the liquid, the "g 052 172 a1", and it will come up. They must have raised the price already... Mine was $51 and free shipping via usps.

Have you received your lubricant from this site yet? I was considering ordering some but wanted to make sure it was an ok site/company to deal with. You never know what you are getting when buying things online...

[WolfsburgerMitFries]

Another quick update, based on material safety in handling concerns raised by Kevin in Canada. After reviewing all the DuPont newsletters for the auto industry, I've found their 4th newsletter gets into safety/handling concerns. Probably the most interesting quote is...

"It presents no danger from short-term skin exposure or from inhalation of decomposition products at high temperatures. And Krytox exhibits no other known hazards. Actually with a toxicity level comparable to sugar and salt water, it is not surprising that Krytox is used in cosmetic products!
Krytox is not included on any hazardous SARA EHS, CERCLA, or SARA toxic chemicals list; nor is it regulated by the EPA, DOT, or FDA. In fact, we have been awarded an NSF approval for use in certain applications with incidental food contact."

http://www2.dupont.com/Lubrica...4.pdf

Modified by WolfsburgerMitFries at 3:07 PM 2-26-2007

[just4fun]

Excellent info Wolfsburger, thanks for the follow up research.

Kevin

[darien]

Laura:

I bought mine from 1stvwparts.com. It's $52.02 + $7.95 shipping. Shipping via UPS. Took them almost 4 business day to email me about the shipment tracking information. HTH.