W12 Coolant Specification Question (G12, or G12 Plus Plus?)

[PhaetonMack]

Greetings All,

First time poster on this forum. I bought a 2004 W12 with 14k miles on it three weeks ago. Engine light came on and the problem was a coolant leak. The leak has been repaired and the dealer is saying I need G12 Plus Plus coolant. They ordered it and said that it still hasn't come in and that the are at the mercy of VW. Every other dealer I have called says that G12 is all that it needs. Haven't seen the car in two weeks (. What is the deal here??? Will G12 work or do I need this G12 Plus Plus stuff? Thanks.

[PanEuropean]

Hi Marion:

Welcome to the Phaeton forum, we're glad you are here.

I also own a 2004 W12 Phaeton. The owner manual for my car specifies 'G12' coolant, as shown in the scanned image below. To the best of my knowledge, this means you use the coolant shown in the picture below that. The text in the owner manual is a bit ambiguous - although it suggests that the 'purple coloured' G12 is desirable, it also states very clearly that we can use 'red' G12, or even G11. The liquid in the jug shown in the picture below is sort of a bright fluorescent red colour. I asked the Phaeton technician at my VW dealership about this, and he told me that it was 'for sure' perfectly OK to use the stuff shown in the picture. By the way, he also drives a Phaeton, and I trust his judgement absolutely.

You may also want to have a peek at these past discussions about coolant:

"Insufficient Coolant" Advisory Message
F265 Map Controlled Engine Thermostat Replacement (W12 - BAP)

Some other great resources for you as a new Phaeton owner include our Phaeton Forum 'Table of Contents' (FAQ by Category) - especially the section entitled 'Questions New Phaeton Owners Have Asked', and the excellent team of support specialists available to you at the Phaeton Customer Care Center, who can be reached toll free by dialling 1 (877) 742-3866.

Best regards, happy motoring,

Michael

Coolant Specification

[PhaetonMack]

Thanks a lot I really appreciate your help. After researching a lot more yesterday what you are saying is partially correct. If you are just adding coolant G12 is perfectly fine. But if your coolant system has been completly drained to resolve an issue you will need this hocus pocus "G12 plus plus" stuff. Apparently you want notice anything initially if you don't use it, but after several thousand miles you could potentially have major problems with your coolant system without the G12 plus plus additive. Spoke to a bunch of Master Phaeton Technicians yesterday only two of them knew that the W12 needed this special additive if the system had been drained. They were both emphatic that refilling the system with G12 would majorly screw things up down the road. Also both parts departments confirmed that it would take a while to get as there wasn't any available in the states. Oh well......

[PhaetonMack]

She verified that my W12 does need this additive after researching it for a day. Said she talked with a mechanic that has worked on a lot of Phaetons in Chicago to verify this. She also said that it is only available at the Los Angeles parts depot and that it will take at least three more days before it makes it to the east coast because it is considered a hazardous material and can only be ground shipped . The customer service at VoA was really a big help. Anyways with that said anytime your Phaetons cooling system needs work make sure they are refilling it with the right stuff. The overwhelming majority of V-dub parts clerks and technicians I spoke with yesterday didn't know this particular coolant/part even existed.

[PanEuropean]

Wow, that's interesting information - thanks very much for reporting back to all of us with it.

If you have the opportunity, could you please take a picture of the container that the special G12 coolant additive comes in? You can then email it to me, and I will post the picture here for everyone else to refer to. Click on my user name to the left to reveal my email address.

Michael

[maleezer]

Just curious, how much did you pay for your car?

[PhaetonMack]

I'll email you the photo. I definitly think it would help if more of us know about it. I know the Phaeton W12 is rare in the states but I'm still somewhat dissapointed that so many technicians think they can treat it like any of the other VW's they service.

[PhaetonMack]

It was never titled and it was the loaner car for Phaeton Owners who bought their cars in for service. Since this rarely happened the owners wife drove it most of the time. The asking price was 69,990 which was way too much. I showed them printouts of W12 Phaetons for significantly less. I ended up paying 50 even. Its VW certified and it has 14k miles. I probably could have gotten it for three grand less than that but then I wouldn't have seen the car and I would have had to pay shipping too.

[PanEuropean]

Quote, originally posted by PhaetonMack »

I ended up paying 50 even. Its VW certified and it has 14k miles.

Sounds like a good deal to me. Congratulations.

Michael

[dcowan699]

Quote, originally posted by PhaetonMack »

Greetings All, First time poster on this forum. I bought a 2004 W12 with 14k miles on it three weeks ago. Engine light came on and the problem was a coolant leak. The leak has been repaired and the dealer is saying I need G12 Plus Plus coolant. They ordered it and said that it still hasn't come in and that the are at the mercy of VW. Every other dealer I have called says that G12 is all that it needs. Haven't seen the car in two weeks (. What is the deal here??? Will G12 work or do I need this G12 Plus Plus stuff? Thanks.

It seems that all W12s will eventually have to have this repaired at some time or another. Mine did the same thing. In fact, my Phaeton and Michael's Phaeton both did this at about the same time.

[PhaetonMack]

It is definitly called "G12 Plus Plus" They put in a 50/50 mixture of the stuff with G12. There was only six bottles of the stuff in the country. If you need all of your coolant replaced and you have a W12 make sure your technician knows about it. I talked to parts managers and techs at about a dozen VW dealerships. Unfortuneatly most were pretty rude and insisted that there was no such thing as "G12 Plus Plus". I guess they thought I was trying to tell them how to do their jobs. I was actually just looking for the part. If you are in thw Wasgington, DC area and have a Phaeton. Take it to Jeff at Fairfax VW. He was one of only two VW service people that actually knew about the W12's special coolant needs.

I'll send a photo of the bottle to the moderator so they can post it.

[car_guy]

Quote, originally posted by PhaetonMack »

It is definitly called "G12 Plus Plus" They put in a 50/50 mixture of the stuff with G12.

When you say they used a 50/50 mixture of the two coolants, do you mean they didn't mix that 50/50 mixture with any water? My understanding is that VW insists that the coolant (antifreeze) itself forms a minimum of 50% but no more than 60% of what goes in the cooling system, with water making up the rest.

Maybe Chris can chime in here with the official word.

[PhaetonMack]

I may have misunderstood the service rep. They could've put 50% water, and used 25% G12 and 25% G12 Plus Plus. In any case you would still need G12 Plus Plus if your coolant system was drained.

[chrisj428]

As for 50%/50%, that's the correct mix between coolant and water. As for G12 and G12++ -- I honestly don't know. Fortunately, I never needed to worry about it where customers' cars were concerned because I never had a W12 with that degree of coolant loss.

[PanEuropean]

Many thanks to new forum member Marion for sending in this picture of "G12 Plus Plus". This is fascinating information, and it's great to know that all of us 'long in the tooth' forum regulars can still learn from the newbies.

Geez, I am impressed...

G12 Plus Plus Coolant

[PanEuropean]

On the other hand, now I am a bit confused after doing some further research. The fluid capacity charts for the 2004 and 2004 Phaeton both make reference to "G 012 A8F A4, PURPLE coloured". This is the product shown in the first photo I posted way at the top of the thread, the photo showing the container of coolant on top of the W12 engine of my car.

The 2006 Phaeton fluid capacity chart elaborates a little further, stating "Use phosphate-free coolant G 012 A8F A4 [G12+ (purple)]", then going on to describe what product mixtures are and are not acceptable.

The maintenance manual (both the Robert Bentley version and the on-line ELSA version - they are the same) specify "G 12 following TL VW 774F". I presume that VW 774F is a specification, but I can't find any further reference to that specification, and much to my surprise, neither the bottle of G 012 A8F A4 that I have at my house or the bottle of G 012 A8G A3 shown in the picture immediately above show that specification number on them.

The parts catalog (ETKA) shows both A8F A4 and A8G A3, so it's no help. Mind you, the parts catalog is normally not used to determine what fluid is used, it is just a listing of all fluids that are available.

Anyone else have any thoughts?

Michael

[PanEuropean]

Here's the 2004, 2005, and 2006 fluid capacity charts (the 2005 chart is the same as the 2004 chart).

[PanEuropean]

And, here's the 2006 fluid capacity chart, which has a bit more information about what can be mixed with what.

See attachment on post above...

[valmes]

Here's the 2005 fluid capacity chart (same as the 2004 one).

Michael can you rehost those charts please?

[PanEuropean]

All attachments and pictures have been re-hosted.

Michael

[valmes]

Thanks!!!

[remrem]

Looking at the VW Maintenance Schedule for my W12, I notice it only calls for "Cooling System - check level" every 20,000 miles. In other vehicles I've owned, I've made a point of having the cooling system flushed every few years, and I believe that was because the manufacturers had recommended it. I have no problems with my W12 cooling system, but was wondering if I should consider having it flushed, or if this is considered to be another of those "lifetime" fluids? You know, like our transmission fluid used to be!

Having read the discussion above, I hope the correct answer to my question is to leave it alone!

I look forward to your comments.

Regards,
Ron M.

[PanEuropean]

Hi Ron:

To the best of my knowledge, the coolant genuinely is 'lifetime' - if you keep in mind that the foreseen lifetime of a car in North America is about 13 years.

When I had a temperature sensor changed in my W12 engine about 3 years after the car was manufactured, I had a look at the coolant and it looked great. The liquid that I can see in the small round sphere in the engine compartment today (8 years after manufacture) still looks clean and clear.

So - it is not something that I think we need to pay much attention to.

Michael

[remrem]

Hi Ron:

To the best of my knowledge, the coolant genuinely is 'lifetime' - if you keep in mind that the foreseen lifetime of a car in North America is about 13 years.

When I had a temperature sensor changed in my W12 engine about 3 years after the car was manufactured, I had a look at the coolant and it looked great. The liquid that I can see in the small round sphere in the engine compartment today (8 years after manufacture) still looks clean and clear.

So - it is not something that I think we need to pay much attention to.

Michael

Thanks Michael,

That's the answer I was hoping for. I will just leave it alone. By the way, can you please tell me where the "small round sphere" is located? I don't remember ever seeing it.

Best regards,
Ron