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    Thread: Belated crossflow/MSnS build thread

    1. Member punchbug's Avatar
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      07-05-2007 04:48 PM #1
      Yeah, I call this one the Johnny Cash build (after the song "One Piece at a Time") or "the extensive Injector Insert swap", since my partner in crime will go to great lengths to avoid changing out injector inserts. Before I start, it'll be long, the intention is to provide technical support for anyone considering a similar mess, and I must take some time to thank my two co-conspirators, Drew and Dan. Without these two guys, there's no way this thing would be running.
      So onwards.
      As with most projects, plans are for the weak and plans changed a lot as we went. The first concept was just to get MSnS up and going in the present build, a JH with 10:1 pistons and G grind, Fox intake, all that stuff. (picture to follow) Dan agreed to ship me a prebuilt controller and relay panel in the fall, so I set about getting sensors and such sorted out. Here's one of the failures, the flange is from an AC TD, the only problem of course is that TDs dont have all that cap and rotor nonsense to interfere. There were a few other bad coolant sensor concepts, but here's a pic of that one:

      Intake air temp is another sensor from the General that needed to go in as near to the TB as possible, so I JBwelded this plumbing fitting in with an electrical nut on the inside. Gotta love the Crappy Tire hardware section.

      Next up was to construct the harness, I got lots of different coloured wires, and used shrink wrap labels on both ends.Of course all the lengths were wrong because I ended up not using a counterflow head. It took a while to get the location for the controller and relay panel worked out, even though they ended up in the parcel tray under the glovebox like everyone else's. I carpeted the tray and used Velcro to hold them down for ease of removal. Here's the MS electricals:

      I had a extra guages to add, and didn't want them all real obvious, I want the car to look as stock as possible until the hood gets opened, so I used some rare earth magnets to secure modified vent grilles in place, this is from an AC dash. It would be a bad location if you were tall, or needed minute by minute feedback, but the guages that ended up there don't change too rapidly (oil temp etc), so it's fine.

      Modified by punchbug at 12:52 PM 7-5-2007


      Modified by punchbug at 12:53 PM 7-5-2007

      Last edited by punchbug; 06-26-2010 at 09:36 AM.

    2. Member TheTimob's Avatar
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      07-05-2007 05:03 PM #2
      Nice pics, Cathy!

      Cathy's car = YUM!


    3. Member punchbug's Avatar
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      07-05-2007 05:21 PM #3
      Next step was to tap the signal from the Hall sender and see if the computer was seeing rpm, and finally to run the car on the spark part of MSnS.

      I'd also used MS to run the fuel pump by this point because the stock power supply was so flaky with that stupid relay bypass under the leaky windshield nonsense. It was very liberating to drive the car with the Bosch box sitting in my garage. I should also mention that I'd had an Innovate wide band in the car for over a year by this point to tune straight CIS. I'm glad I put it in so early, it's been good to know what AFRs the car ran in various situations. I'd suggest anyone buying things for MS by stages do the same, get the WB in there early. I'd also had knock sensing ignition on the previous build.

      So for whatever reason, stress levels were too low pre-Cincy and about March Drew and I decided that it would be a good idea to get the ABA head in there at the same time, to save the fun of swapping injector inserts. So we did a test fit in his blonde babe "Inga". We were lucky to have two unused MkIs to use for test fits.


      Was there clearance? Sure, just enough, maybe...:


      So I set about the task of trying to figure out how to reroute things, since the ABA intake manifold puts the airbox on the other side of the bay, and there were lots of cooling hoses that needed rerouting. I ended up scrounging ABA hoses leftover from my nephew's project, and found that the huge B3 Passat rad and twin fan setup would fit and lined up with the ABA plumbing. Lower rad hose was from a 16V Scirocco. The other reason for using these was that I had them.

      So after all that, we decided to go with a 2000 Jetta AEG intake manifold!

      It was not especially cheap or easy to find because these engines get sold complete. BUT, it puts the TB on the "Scirocco" side of the engine bay. Our friendly 70mm Weber bolted up to it fine too, with slight mods for the bolts. Anyway, note the extra height in the AEG vs the ABA. BIG concerns for whether it would clear the hood. One way to find out....

      Modified by punchbug at 1:26 PM 7-5-2007


      Modified by punchbug at 2:49 PM 7-5-2007


    4. Member punchbug's Avatar
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      07-05-2007 05:57 PM #4
      Well, the better question was, what DID fit. It seems VW Lego works best if the year gap isn't like 20 years, but we forged on...

      Yeah, the hood:

      It didn't exactly clear too well. And it probably would have gine right on through the hood itself if we'd used the taller ABA block as well. Klaus' stock hood was really clean, but my "born River Blue, now Porsche red" parts car had a rusty crappy one that I didn't mind cutting. So I used a double layer of high density carpet underpad and some poster paint to mark the high spots. I used two layers because I wanted some "room to rock" for the engine. Here's some art for your wall after the precision Dremel cut:

      That got cleaned up and painted black, but it remained red on top!!!!

      So what else didn't fit? Well, minor things, like, either the plug wires went on or I got an alternator, or I got an alternator or a lower rad hose. The choices were, well, just not good. Stock ABA wires were essential, and the modification of this alternator bracket took an un believable amount of creative fabrication for it's eventual purity and simplicity of design:

      ANyway, it's all in there. So I get this phone call. Seems neither Drew nor I had paid attention to this little fellow:

      Which of course he figured out after it was firmly planted on this:

      Yep, that oval oil drain lines up over the circular opening in the block, but also hangs right over the block, and would have spewed all the oil out in very short order. So I pulled the head, and off for some aluminum (or alumineeem) welding and machining, to give us this batlike deal:

      Holy expensive batwelding there Batman!

      So fuel:

      I had a whack of injectors on hand, this is (L-R) AEG/ABA/Digi and note that the AEG has, well, more girth. And of course I busted one pulling it out, so I ended up using the Digi ones with a doubled up O ring, a tip once again from Drew. I flow tested them too, so I'd know what the real number was for MS reference purposes:

      Oh!!! And CIS is OUT THE DOOR!!!!!


      Here's another "did not fit". Just your basic vent. Stock ABA "flying saucer" one is right where the AEG intake goes, so that's no good, and the plastic AEG one with the ABA valve cover was taller than the intake...BUT, a new AEG valve cover wasn't as expensive as the vent, so that solved that issue:

      Lotsa brackets to mod up, fluids to add, and it's go time....



    5. Member punchbug's Avatar
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      07-05-2007 06:42 PM #5

      Yeah, so finally it's time to see if it'll run. So I phoned up Mr MS himself, and with a few adjustments, it ran and idled well. Which was a relief. By this point I still could not drive it though, as I had no throttle cable. By the time I finally had one, I'd been mucking around securing things and sort of finalizing locations/brackets, and guess what? The car would not start. Wanted to run on one cylinder, not even the same one all the time.
      So back on the phone, talked to Dan, talked to Drew, any randoms that wandered through, replaced this that and the other, and it turned out to be a corrupted .msq file. Once that was resolved, it was time to log and tune. Dan helped me get to where I could drive it around noon on Saturday, had it at the track Sunday morning, less than 24 hours later:

      So that's the deal, Dan and Drew and I installed a 268 cam and new lifters at Cincy, and that threw tuning all off again, but it's coming along. So there you have it. Last trip down the track was still slower than the original build, but this is just a midway point towards a faster goal, so I'm happy with it. I've had a few people tell me they'd done a similar thing with boost and the result was very nice indeed....Goin' out to drive it now actually!
      Cathy


    6. Member Mtl-Marc's Avatar
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      07-05-2007 08:08 PM #6
      Quote, originally posted by punchbug »

      I had a whack of injectors on hand, this is (L-R) AEG/ABA/Digi and note that the AEG has, well, more girth. And of course I busted one pulling it out, so I ended up using the Digi ones with a doubled up O ring, a tip once again from Drew. I flow tested them too, so I'd know what the real number was for MS reference purposes:

      Great minds think alike

      Very nice and interesting writup as usual Cathy

      Gotta love Klaus on MS

      Please keep posting some more info and pics


      Quote Originally Posted by Mk1Madness
      Back when making your car faster and better handling was the big thing.
      Quote Originally Posted by Eistreiber
      Yeah, I prefer slow-cooked bacon; and bacon grease saved is great for frying other stuff, adds some good flavor to almost anything. Except maybe tofu, that stuff is beyond help.
      Quote Originally Posted by Tavarish
      The car's best safety feature includes ejecting you in the moment of impact and wishing you the best of luck.

    7. Member punchbug's Avatar
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      07-06-2007 09:52 AM #7
      Quote, originally posted by Mtl-Marc »

      Great minds think alike

      Very nice and interesting writup as usual Cathy

      Gotta love Klaus on MS

      Please keep posting some more info and pics


      Mmmmm, Hoegaarden...I had yet to discover that one when I built my test rig, those bottles would be better, they're shorter!

      And I didn't mention the fourteen nervous breakdowns during the build, but hey, that's what these cars will do to ya...


    8. Member sciroccojim's Avatar
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      07-06-2007 10:12 AM #8

      ^^I love this!!^^

      Nice work, Cath.


    9. Member J. Daniel's Avatar
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      07-06-2007 11:45 AM #9
      Quote, originally posted by punchbug »

      Santa Klaus is looking good!

      I feel like such a bonehead that I didn't check the .msq file first instead of us all going on a vast witch hunt.

      I'll be interested to hear about how many more cars you can get involved in Klaus' ongoing improvements.


    10. Member type53b_gtd's Avatar
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      07-06-2007 04:47 PM #10
      Quote, originally posted by punchbug »

      Which of course he figured out after it was firmly planted on this:


      Well, you know, it was your fist head gasket job, and you never really learn from something unless you have to do it twice, right?

      What's my excuse? Well, it was my first head gasket (at least ABA head gasket on a JH block, anyways) too....

      And it's all good in the end, regardless of how many extra grey hairs we ended up with.


    11. Member punchbug's Avatar
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      07-07-2007 12:27 AM #11
      Quote, originally posted by type53b_gtd »


      Well, you know, it was your fist head gasket job, and you never really learn from something unless you have to do it twice, right?

      What's my excuse? Well, it was my first head gasket (at least ABA head gasket on a JH block, anyways) too....

      And it's all good in the end, regardless of how many extra grey hairs we ended up with.

      YOUR first headgasket? THAT is too funny. For the month if March 2007 maybe! Grey hairs? Not me, none of my hair colour is natural anyway! And Dan, no worries about not finding out about the .msq file sooner, we did get it sorted out and that's what matters. Timbo! Thanks for posting up a picture of the build eh?


    12. Member Mtl-Marc's Avatar
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      07-07-2007 12:41 AM #12
      All right, I hope to have a good look at MS at TDN

      This will be my next project on the car

      Yours is quite a success

      Quote Originally Posted by Mk1Madness
      Back when making your car faster and better handling was the big thing.
      Quote Originally Posted by Eistreiber
      Yeah, I prefer slow-cooked bacon; and bacon grease saved is great for frying other stuff, adds some good flavor to almost anything. Except maybe tofu, that stuff is beyond help.
      Quote Originally Posted by Tavarish
      The car's best safety feature includes ejecting you in the moment of impact and wishing you the best of luck.

    13. 07-07-2007 01:24 AM #13
      hope this helps a bit...

      i was foruming and saw this car and noted the hood...


      take out the back bolt for the hood support and a 10mm nut prop it up and then bolt them together. u might have to adjust the hood springs or w/e


    14. Member punchbug's Avatar
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      07-07-2007 11:36 AM #14
      Quote, originally posted by 84SciroccoX-FLOW »
      hope this helps a bit...

      i was foruming and saw this car and noted the hood...


      take out the back bolt for the hood support and a 10mm nut prop it up and then bolt them together. u might have to adjust the hood springs or w/e

      Oh THAT manifold works fine with my build (the JH being shorter than a real ABA) It was that AEG manifold that hit, the hood would close, but you had to push it down, who knows what it would have done when it was "alive" and squirming around. And how did you ever manage to notice the hood with all those "ornaments" ? That's not to my taste, for the record (she says hoping to bait someone into posting something more masculine draped over a VW hood...)


    15. Member scirocco*joe's Avatar
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      07-09-2007 02:20 PM #15
      Great job on the build, Cath! I also will post my agreements that the guage placement is most excellent!

      If'n I can get my car to run for +/- a month straight, perhaps MS will be in my future. However, I wonder what a pain in the arse it will be for a 16V? Goals!

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    16. Global Moderator Paul@VWvortex's Avatar
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      06-26-2010 01:02 AM #16

    17. Member punchbug's Avatar
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      06-26-2010 09:33 AM #17
      Why thank you for the two threads back, and all the others that have been revived. I will add to this that I just love driving this car!! Drove it yesterday, actually!

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