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    Thread: Half rotate engine

    1. 08-11-2007 01:08 PM #1
      Half rotate engine

      Full story:
      http://www.new4stroke.com/new%...1.pdf
      Regards Andrew

    2. Geriatric Member BRealistic's Avatar
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      08-11-2007 01:13 PM #2
      That looks like a lot of reciprocating mass. More like half baked engine.
      “Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.”

    3. Senior Member AZGolf's Avatar
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      08-11-2007 01:19 PM #3
      Looks like a vibrational nightmare. What problem did they think they were fixing here?

    4. 08-11-2007 01:19 PM #4
      Front of whatever it's in would be slamming back and forth

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      08-11-2007 01:21 PM #5
      Quote, originally posted by anotoneher »
      Front of whatever it's in would be slamming back and forth

      Seriously. I'm picturing a car with the front tires jumping from left to right, like a high school cheerleader who gets her pregnancy test back negative.

    6. 08-11-2007 01:22 PM #6
      Seems like a lot of mass to be moving back in forth in the front of the car........................

    7. 08-11-2007 01:24 PM #7
      What would the advantage be?

    8. Geriatric Member BRealistic's Avatar
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      08-11-2007 01:27 PM #8
      Quote, originally posted by Corbic »
      What would the advantage be?

      It looks like each side of those two wedges is a combustion chamber.(we are not seeing the engine block). So I guess the advantage would be the power output in a small engine block. You would need to of these reciprocating dual wedge things operating opposite of each other to cancel out vibrations though- end even then it might still shake like crazy. Hm.
      “Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.”

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      08-11-2007 01:30 PM #9
      Polish engine design...
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    10. Member scanlory's Avatar
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      08-11-2007 02:16 PM #10
      I brilliant solution to a problem that really never existed in the first place.

    11. 08-11-2007 02:18 PM #11
      Quote, originally posted by BRealistic »
      It looks like each side of those two wedges is a combustion chamber.(we are not seeing the engine block). So I guess the advantage would be the power output in a small engine block. You would need to of these reciprocating dual wedge things operating opposite of each other to cancel out vibrations though- end even then it might still shake like crazy. Hm.

      so you would have a string of those chambers, revolving in different timing on one crank shaft... a big long tube engine... that half rotates?
      I don't think it would resolve any of the traditional problems a rotary engine has, nor would it improve on a piston engine..

    12. Geriatric Member BRealistic's Avatar
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      08-11-2007 03:33 PM #12
      Quote, originally posted by Corbic »
      so you would have a string of those chambers, revolving in different timing on one crank shaft... a big long tube engine... that half rotates?
      I don't think it would resolve any of the traditional problems a rotary engine has, nor would it improve on a piston engine..

      No. Just two side by side. And while it is an interesting 'idea', the devil is in the details. For example- The rotary engine seems like a great idea on paper: few moving parts, no reciprocating parts, high rpm is no problem on engine- but then when you realize you have to lubricate a part on the free floating rotor, requiring injecting oil into the intake, and the poor efficiency of the combustion chamber design- and it looses its panacea glow.
      the engine shown does have some advantages over the rotary engine. like the apex seals are part of the block- so they can be easily lubricated and controlled.
      But I still can't see that amount of reciprocating mass allowing the smooth revving rpm needed to make the most out of an engine design.
      “Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the earth all one's lifetime.”

    13. 08-12-2007 06:42 AM #13
      "I brilliant solution to a problem that really never existed in the first place. "

      Yes of course.Next develop 100 years, and only advantages


      Modified by feliks at 3:44 AM 8-12-2007

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      08-12-2007 08:26 AM #14
      I'm not qualified to judge the efficiency of the design, but a look at the website http://www.pivotalengine.com is interesting. Here are a few items that answered my first questions:
      Quote, originally posted by website »
      Longevity was our first requirement. To achieve this we needed to change the means by which the piston movement was constrained. A cylinder with large port openings does not satisfactorily restrain the piston or the piston rings when all these components are changing in size and shape.
      Reliability demanded that the temperature of the piston be controlled when the engine is operating at a continuous and high load.
      Efficiency was another prime requirement. The key to efficiency is to reduce the internal friction and improve the internal gas flow. We therefore needed to remove load bearing sliding components and create displacement driven full loop scavenge pattern to reduce fresh charge and exhaust gas mixing and improve trapping.
      Low oil consumption was needed to ensure that both the cost of operation and the level of emissions met the expectations for engines of the future. Keeping the oil separate from the fuel and from mixing with the induction air was clearly essential.

      Quote, originally posted by website »
      The piston movement is now controlled by pivot bearings and this eliminates piston rocking and the wear associated with the cold startup phase in a conventional two/stroke engine. The exceptionally low level of mechanical noise is immediately apparent. The pivoted piston also ensures that the compression seals are held at normal orientation to the surface of the chamber and do not protrude into the port openings. The pivot shaft also provides access for water cooling which circulates through the piston to directly cool the piston crown. These features are important because the piston is no longer at risk of being damaged when the engine is cold or from over heating during sustained periods of high load.
      In a 'Pivotal' engine the only components subject to wear are the chamber surfaces, the compression seals and the bearings. Modern surface coating technology provides a wide range of material choices making it possible to achieve the service life required in almost any engine application.
      By pivoting the piston we have removed the high lubrication demand that is associated with the sliding piston of a conventional two/stroke engine (the cause of excessive oil loss out of the exhaust). Oil can be metered by the engine management system directly to the surfaces of parts where it is needed. The 'Pivotal' engine oil usage is only 10% of the level required by a conventional two/stroke engine. This rate of oil consumption is comparable with the oil consumption of a four/stroke engine before the additional saving from not having oil changes is factored in.

      I guess what I'd like to know now is how the cooling water seal to the wobbling piston would be secured, and what the emissions from such an engine would look like. My understanding of 2-stroke engines is that the exhaust is very dirty, but the removal of oil from the fuel may alleviate a lot of that.
      Mr Feliks - Why would you want to add valves to the design? Your diagram on page 9 talks about only needing one rod and one crank, but the valves would also add four camshafts, adding weight and complexity. The beauty (to my untrained eyes) of the 2-stroke approach is that it only requires a fuel injector. And the website talks about a 400 cc motorcycle engine pulling 11,500 RPM.
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    15. 08-12-2007 08:57 AM #15
      Quote, originally posted by B4A3WhatNext »
      Mr Feliks - Why would you want to add valves to the design? Your diagram on page 9 talks about only needing one rod and one crank, but the valves would also add four camshafts, adding weight and complexity. The beauty (to my untrained eyes) of the 2-stroke approach is that it only requires a fuel injector. And the website talks about a 400 cc motorcycle engine pulling 11,500 RPM.

      Yes , I think , so designs this half rotate,It depends , ahose this engine are usin: other big engine (eg.ships), other smal engine ( eg .motocycle) . Ones better two stroke, othes four stroke with different timing, popoed or "pistons".Itas too depends for allocation this engine.


      Modified by feliks at 4:50 PM 8-12-2007

    16. 08-12-2007 12:24 PM #16
      Quote, originally posted by B4A3WhatNext »

      My understanding of 2-stroke engines is that the exhaust is very dirty, but the removal of oil from the fuel may alleviate a lot of that.

      you would be wrong in that assumption. Carb'd 2 stroke's are very dirty, fuel injected two stroke motors that are built by companies such as Aprillia and large outboard boat motor companies (I think Mercury? IIRC) are very clean and are capable of meeting emissions requirements. Two stroke's have an issue of raw fuel getting spat out the exhaust, their efficiency is not something to brag about. This raw fuel being oil and gasoline, which the new fuel injected motor's seem to be keeping under control.
      The real issue is the mixxing of the oil and fuel and how people forget. It's not even like to have to mix it yourself, most 2 stroke's have a oil injection pump now and you just have to keep it topped off.
      FWIW

    17. 08-12-2007 07:58 PM #17
      Quote, originally posted by Brendon@BmFTechnik »

      The real issue is the mixxing of the oil and fuel and how people forget. It's not even like to have to mix it yourself, most 2 stroke's have a oil injection pump now and you just have to keep it topped off.
      FWIW

      Yes you right.This engine possible have teflon slider, and possible two stroke witot any oil in intake air( or fuel- air)but all must colled water.

    18. 08-12-2007 08:05 PM #18
      Quote, originally posted by feliks »
      Yes you right.This engine possible have teflon slider, and possible two stroke witot any oil in intake air( or fuel- air)but all must colled water.

      It shows you are from krakow, but god i can not read your writing.
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    19. 08-12-2007 09:04 PM #19
      Quote, originally posted by feliks »

      Good news for Eastern Europeans! The revolutionary half-stroke engine will be featured in the new 2008 Trabant.


      __________

    20. Member nobledub's Avatar
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      08-12-2007 09:37 PM #20
      the translation on that PDF is
      As far as that engine working...

    21. 08-13-2007 09:19 AM #21
      Quote, originally posted by VWestlife »
      Good news for Eastern Europeans! The revolutionary half-stroke engine will be featured in the new 2008 Trabant.


      Espania is in Western Europe? Some news http://www.dmoz.es/Top/Science...arch/
      Maybe Seat?

      Modified by feliks at 4:23 AM 9-10-2007


      Modified by feliks at 4:24 AM 9-10-2007

    22. 09-10-2007 07:36 AM #22
      Quote, originally posted by VWestlife »
      Good news for Eastern Europeans! The revolutionary half-stroke engine will be featured in the new 2008 Trabant.

      Trabant are air -cooled , version half -rotate air cooled :

      Develop air-cooled half rotate piston :
      Two big closed bearings,little different seals:
      (3D not enough, two picture for good explain )

      plus some fin inside "piston" and good air vent

      Or two small bearings .....
      First VW too have air-cooled engine

    23. Geriatric Member AKADriver's Avatar
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      09-10-2007 08:24 AM #23
      What's the point?
      The problem that IC engines face today is not their rotational assembly, it's in the fuel used and the combustion process.
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    24. 03-23-2008 09:23 PM #24
      Litlle HorsePowerMeter
      Tongues in engines manner of measurement of amount of mechanical horse.
      Each engine owns invariable parameters about definite , like :
      Sum of inertia mass, sum inertia springs, chains ,valves,etc.
      Each model of engine has this parameters exactly SAME !!
      And if for example, we want it without load for 4000 RPM ,at same time , we need exactly SAME horsepower.
      It is principle my idea: Horse Power Meter.
      Manner of measurement Horse Power:
      Car is stop !!
      We have running engine in idle RPM.
      We need only same impulse classic RPM meter
      Next we push and press i electronic meter switch "measurement"
      Next we must push throttle in FULL .
      Engine go to eg 5000 RPM.
      Electronic measurement TIME with special SOFT , how long engine going measurement period 3000 rpm to 4000 rpm . This TIME are equivalent horsepower of engine.
      Little power -long time , normal power - short time
      Idea in diagram:


      Next diagram electronic of Horsepower Meter, can made little 8 -bit processor eg. AT2050. Small individual Soft for each model of engine:


      Happy Easter
      Andrew :wavey:

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      03-23-2008 09:38 PM #25
      Quote, originally posted by feliks »
      Trabant are air -cooled , version half -rotate air cooled :
      Develop air-cooled half rotate piston :
      Two big closed bearings,little different seals:
      (3D not enough, two picture for good explain )
      plus some fin inside "piston" and good air vent
      First VW too have air-cooled engine

      I can't help but read that using Borat's accent...
      Quote Originally Posted by 20aeman View Post
      No, the real enthusiast vehicle would be the RX8. It combines V12 Lamborghini gas mileage with Hyundai Genesis 4cyl. performance.

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