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    Thread: AFR target under boost?

    1. 09-29-2007 08:41 PM #1
      im running solid between 12.5 and 13 a/f ratio on the wideband... only pusing 10lbs now but will be seing 20lbs as soon as i finish my air/water setup...
      just wondering if i should richen it up... talked to some guys at a car show today (got 3rd place btw [IMG]http://**********************/smile/emthup.gif[/IMG] ) and they say my target AFR for 9:1-9.5:1 should be around 10.5-11 @ 20psi and nothing above 12 @ 10psi...
      they also said i should make more power and it will lower my egt's as well, and i should be able to run a few more deg of timing... currently running about 18-20deg @ 10psi

    2. 09-29-2007 09:43 PM #2
      you tune for power. watch your egt's, and run it as lean as you can while keeping egts safe, and no detonation. lower timing+leaner a/f=higher egts. higher timing+richer a/f=lower egts. higher timing+leaner a/f=detonation city. throw it on a dyno, and tune the curve for power, and if you start detonating, add a little fuel.


      Modified by mirror at 6:45 PM 9-29-2007

    3. 09-30-2007 03:39 PM #3
      nothing above 11.8 at any psi while wot
      2008cc GT3071r E85
      429whp/411wtq

    4. Geriatric Member ValveCoverGasket's Avatar
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      10-01-2007 12:56 PM #4
      Quote, originally posted by the4ork »
      they also said i should make more power

      peak torque is at 13.5 if i remember right...probably will start to heat things up too much there though

    5. Member IwannaGTI's Avatar
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      10-01-2007 02:19 PM #5
      im at 13.5-14.5 on my vrt...
      running to the dyno soon to see if my a/f gauge is wrong/bad

    6. 10-01-2007 03:12 PM #6
      right now i'm at 12:1 at 13 PSI on my 2.0t. timing is at 24 advanced most of my way through the rev range in boost. i need to advance it a little more at the top becuase it starts to slow down as i go past 6200 RPM.

      EDIT: not detonation. someone abave explained the AFR rule pretty good. more timing=more fuel, less timing=less fuel, but more timing+less fuel= pistons ending up in your engine bay.

      Modified by Flipdriver80 at 3:13 PM 10-1-2007


      Modified by Flipdriver80 at 3:18 PM 10-1-2007
      Quote Originally Posted by dirtbaggg View Post
      is there anyway to get a new uni body?

      like can yu take the uni body off

    7. 10-01-2007 03:12 PM #7
      you guys talking about ~13.5 while in boost?
      2008cc GT3071r E85
      429whp/411wtq

    8. Geriatric Member ValveCoverGasket's Avatar
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      10-01-2007 03:14 PM #8
      Quote, originally posted by Flipdriver80 »
      right now i'm at 12:1 at 13 PSI on my 2.0t. timing is at 24 advanced most of my way through the rev range in boost.

      how much boost are you running on 24* of advance

    9. 10-01-2007 03:14 PM #9
      13 psi.. if i retard the timing anymore it sounds like the spark is after the piston hits the top of its stroke. car falls on its face.


      Modified by Flipdriver80 at 3:16 PM 10-1-2007
      Quote Originally Posted by dirtbaggg View Post
      is there anyway to get a new uni body?

      like can yu take the uni body off

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      10-01-2007 03:29 PM #10
      target a/f ratio for boost is anywhere between 12.5:1 and 13.5:1. anything in there will be fine. I read not too long ago in Grassroots Motorsports that they tested this theory and noticed no gains in leaning out or going richer than that
      flipdriver...are you 10000% sure all your base settings and timing is correct? 24 sounds a bit high, but the fact that if you retard it any sounds like what you say, thats not good. you should only notice a slight drop in power when dropping the timing down...something doest sound right to me

    11. Geriatric Member ValveCoverGasket's Avatar
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      10-01-2007 03:30 PM #11
      Quote, originally posted by Flipdriver80 »
      13 psi.. if i retard the timing anymore it sounds like the spark is after the piston hits the top of its stroke. car falls on its face.

      sounds like you need to double/triple check your settings, somethings not right there

    12. 10-01-2007 03:42 PM #12
      i know dude i kinda don't get it either given the spark table you are running (VCG). i have the intial advance correct because i've checked it and redone it 2 times. i am at -10 advanced at idle. when i get home i'll take a screen shot of my advance table and you can tell me what you think. i've been driving the car daily and romping on it. just drove it 500 miles round trip to h2o with no problems whatsoever. i'll PM you when i get the screen shot up. [IMG]http://**********************/smile/emthup.gif[/IMG]


      Modified by Flipdriver80 at 3:44 PM 10-1-2007
      Quote Originally Posted by dirtbaggg View Post
      is there anyway to get a new uni body?

      like can yu take the uni body off

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      10-01-2007 04:13 PM #13
      Quote, originally posted by Flipdriver80 »
      i am at -10 advanced at idle.
      Modified by Flipdriver80 at 3:44 PM 10-1-2007

      this is a big red flag to me. you should def be a bit higher that -10 at idle! all the cars i have done sit at 6-10 degrees adv.
      are you sure you set the base timing correctly?
      1. set fixed angle (i hope thats right) to 6- burn to ecu
      2. set engine timing light to zero and rotate until it lines up with the bellhousing on the big dash on the flywheel (6* btdc)
      3. lock down dizzy
      4. set fixed back to -10 - burn to ecu

    14. 10-01-2007 04:17 PM #14
      yeah 10 degrees advanced... not retarded 10 degrees. i wrote it wrong sorry
      Quote Originally Posted by dirtbaggg View Post
      is there anyway to get a new uni body?

      like can yu take the uni body off

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      10-01-2007 04:22 PM #15
      are you running an MSD or similar additional spark box by chance?

    16. 10-01-2007 04:25 PM #16
      Quote, originally posted by Flipdriver80 »
      yeah 10 degrees advanced... not retarded 10 degrees. i wrote it wrong sorry

      did you verify your timing via a timing light? you need to correct the table or dizzy if it's off.
      ie: timing light shows 8* btdc, but table shows 10* btdc.

    17. 10-01-2007 04:29 PM #17
      no aftermarket spark here.
      ok this is what i did just so everyone knows:
      set MS to 6 degrees advanced
      use timing light and adjusted distributor to 6 degrees advanced on the flywheel mark
      tighten down distributor and change MS to 10 degrees
      then burn to ECU, just like it says on patatrons site, i followed the directions word for word.


      Modified by Flipdriver80 at 4:31 PM 10-1-2007
      Quote Originally Posted by dirtbaggg View Post
      is there anyway to get a new uni body?

      like can yu take the uni body off

    18. 10-01-2007 04:33 PM #18
      Quote, originally posted by Flipdriver80 »
      no aftermarket spark here.
      ok this is what i did just so everyone knows:
      set MS to 6 degrees advanced
      use timing light and adjusted distributor to 6 degrees advanced on the flywheel mark
      tighten down distributor and change MS to 10 degrees
      then burn to ECU, just like it says on patatrons site, i followed the directions word for word.

      Modified by Flipdriver80 at 4:31 PM 10-1-2007

      did you reverify that the timing light was at 10* though? i know, you're thinking it was dead on at 6*, why would it not be dead on at 10*...i would re-verify that. 24* and it feels like it's falling on it's face points to your timing being off, spark being blown out, or fuel being off.

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      10-01-2007 04:34 PM #19
      you set the MS setting to 6 before you changed the timing in the motor correct? (you didnt state this, just clarifying as its very important for the process)

    20. 10-01-2007 04:38 PM #20
      yes i set the MS to 6 before i rotated the distributor.
      no its at 24 now and running great [IMG]http://**********************/smile/emthup.gif[/IMG]
      when i lower it to around 18-20 it gets slower
      my timing light does not have an adjustment on it. i'm using the 6* tming mark on the flywheel.

      when i get home in a half hour i'll post it up.


      Modified by Flipdriver80 at 4:39 PM 10-1-2007
      Quote Originally Posted by dirtbaggg View Post
      is there anyway to get a new uni body?

      like can yu take the uni body off

    21. 10-01-2007 04:56 PM #21
      Quote, originally posted by Flipdriver80 »
      yes i set the MS to 6 before i rotated the distributor.
      no its at 24 now and running great [IMG]http://**********************/smile/emthup.gif[/IMG]
      when i lower it to around 18-20 it gets slower
      my timing light does not have an adjustment on it. i'm using the 6* tming mark on the flywheel.

      when i get home in a half hour i'll post it up.

      Modified by Flipdriver80 at 4:39 PM 10-1-2007

      o hell man, you're fine. [IMG]http://**********************/smile/emthup.gif[/IMG]

    22. 10-01-2007 06:11 PM #22
      Quote, originally posted by mirror »
      o hell man, you're fine. [IMG]http://**********************/smile/emthup.gif[/IMG]

      fine with what? i just checked. at high boost 13psi i'm at 25*

      i know its high towards the bottom right, i need to reduce it a little but i never see that advance unless i'm off the throttle. i have been debating on increasing the advance as it increases in RPM past 6200 because it kinda dies after that point.
      Quote Originally Posted by dirtbaggg View Post
      is there anyway to get a new uni body?

      like can yu take the uni body off

    23. Geriatric Member ValveCoverGasket's Avatar
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      10-01-2007 06:21 PM #23
      something doesnt look right there unless youre on some magic gas...
      but your idle looks reasonable...so...
      what does your spark settings window look like?

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      10-01-2007 06:22 PM #24
      one thing i could suggest is spreading out your lower bin values to have a better spread through your normal driving zones 2500-4500 rather than 100 rpm increments at the top (notice its 25 accross anyway). that will allow more tweaking under normal driving for better economy and driveabilty

    25. 10-01-2007 06:25 PM #25
      Quote, originally posted by VWralley »
      one thing i could suggest is spreading out your lower bin values to have a better spread through your normal driving zones 2500-4500 rather than 100 rpm increments at the top (notice its 25 accross anyway). that will allow more tweaking under normal driving for better economy and driveabilty

      ok cool i'll see.
      VCG let me get a pic of my spark settings.
      Quote Originally Posted by dirtbaggg View Post
      is there anyway to get a new uni body?

      like can yu take the uni body off

    26. 10-01-2007 06:28 PM #26
      Quote Originally Posted by dirtbaggg View Post
      is there anyway to get a new uni body?

      like can yu take the uni body off

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      10-01-2007 06:28 PM #27
      just remember, being limited on bins, the MS will use percentages of the one its on and the next one in a linear fashion, so values across the top would only need one line of bins instead of 4 or 5 like you have...also if you stop a bit higher in the rpm than you run, this will help protect if you over-rev the motor for some reason

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      10-01-2007 06:33 PM #28
      i have always used 60 for the trigger angle, thats about all i see, dont know if that would cause the same thing you are seeing...
      maybe you are just able to run more timing due to the rod ratio for the ABA not sure, just seems like a ton of timing to me..

    29. Geriatric Member ValveCoverGasket's Avatar
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      10-01-2007 06:41 PM #29
      Quote, originally posted by VWralley »
      maybe you are just able to run more timing due to the rod ratio for the ABA not sure, just seems like a ton of timing to me..

      still seems like a ton
      have you run it up to those load points and held it for a significant amount of time? or have you tuned that map by running it into boost quickly without letting things stabilize?

    30. 10-01-2007 06:42 PM #30
      Quote, originally posted by VWralley »
      i have always used 60 for the trigger angle, thats about all i see, dont know if that would cause the same thing you are seeing...
      maybe you are just able to run more timing due to the rod ratio for the ABA not sure, just seems like a ton of timing to me..

      i never understood what the trigger angle was, can you please explain that for me. thanks. also i'll check about edjusting the bins thanks.
      Quote Originally Posted by dirtbaggg View Post
      is there anyway to get a new uni body?

      like can yu take the uni body off

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      10-01-2007 06:55 PM #31
      if i understood it, i would
      just going by what i always use, and ive done/timed/help on well over 15 cars...

    32. Geriatric Member ValveCoverGasket's Avatar
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      10-01-2007 07:02 PM #32
      Quote, originally posted by VWralley »
      if i understood it, i would

      read man!
      "Trigger Angle (deg) is the angle Before Top Dead Centre (BTDC) when the selected trigger position (Trig Pos) Tooth (if using wheel decoder) or the Vane on the crank or the Points in a locked distributor, etc, passes the sensor. This is used by the ECU to calculate when to fire the coil(s) as it knows that every time it receives a trigger pulse it is at xxdeg BTDC and the entire spark map is worked out when to fire from the Trigger Angle. "

    33. 10-01-2007 08:23 PM #33
      Quote, originally posted by ValveCoverGasket »
      still seems like a ton
      have you run it up to those load points and held it for a significant amount of time? or have you tuned that map by running it into boost quickly without letting things stabilize?

      yeah i've taken it up through boost smoothly and held it. especially during highway driving.
      Quote Originally Posted by dirtbaggg View Post
      is there anyway to get a new uni body?

      like can yu take the uni body off

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      10-02-2007 01:57 AM #34
      Quote, originally posted by Flipdriver80 »
      fine with what? i just checked. at high boost 13psi i'm at 25*

      i know its high towards the bottom right, i need to reduce it a little but i never see that advance unless i'm off the throttle. i have been debating on increasing the advance as it increases in RPM past 6200 because it kinda dies after that point.


      There are no compensation tables for your timing map?

    35. 10-02-2007 08:11 AM #35
      not sure what you mean
      Quote Originally Posted by dirtbaggg View Post
      is there anyway to get a new uni body?

      like can yu take the uni body off

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