Synthetic vs. Regular Oil

[caly312]

I still haven't gone in for my first service (still under 1k miles) but when I picked up the car the dealer advised me to use synthetic oil, acknowledging that it was more expensive. He said if you use synthetic, the recommended service interval is 5k, if you don't, 3k.

Can anyone verify this? Thanks!

[justinperkins]

Go synthetic or go home. No new cars run on non-synthetic.

[raceware]

As per the Owner's Manual the correct oil for your engine is VW specification 502.00.

There are numerous synthetic and some synthetic blends that meet VW 502.00 specs. There are also many synthetics that do NOT meet VW 502.00 specs. You definitely want to use an oil that meets VW's requirements per page 46 of booklet 3.2 in the Owner's Manual. Conventional Dino oil doesn't normally meet VW 502.00 specs unless it has a synthetic additive package. Also note that VW prefers that you use 5W-40 synthetic oil, but a 5W-30 synthetic oil that meets VW 502.00 specs can be used.

Note that the popular Mobil 1 5W-30 and 10W-30 do NOT meet VW 502.00 specs but the 0W-40 Mobil 1 does.

Again according to the Owner's Manual, you change the oil at 5K, 10K and then every 10K after that. Yes the first two changes are only 5K increments then it jumps to 10K intervals.


Modified by raceware at 9:32 PM 12-18-2007

[Ryan E.]

I just had my 5,000 service and put Torco 5-40w, exceedng vw's recommendation. I'm getting +2mpg around town driving normally (currently 22-23mpg). I havn't done any freeway driving since. The motor feels like it has less resistance with the oil change.

Developed under the most severe racing conditions, Torco SR-5 offers the highest level of performance and protection for highly modified race engines. SR-5 utilizes Group IV/V synthetic base oil chemistries and additive technologies engineered to with stand extreme loads, constant severe temperatures and maximum engine revolutions. SR-5 utilizes Torco's race specific MPZ® technology which reduces frictional losses for maximizing horsepower and torque.

Features & Benefits
- Group IV/V 100% Synthetic Formulas
- Maximizes horsepower & torque output by as much as 4%
- Reduces engine temperatures
- Highest level of engine protection

[raceware]

I don't want to get into a pissin contest on oils and their ability to increase power but in scientifically controlled tests by the car companies at best there is a couple percent points increase in power when going from a 15W-40 to a 0W-20. So in an extreme situation you *may* see 5 HP gain at peak RPM or you may see nothing at all.

The butt dyno is wrong about 99.9% of the time and that is why car companies spend millions a year conducting engine dyno testing. A properly conducted engine dyno test to SAE standards will tell the truth. Also take ALL advertising claims on oil with a large grain of salt. When ads claim "up to X increase" that means that some day, some one might find an application that delivers the advertised possible power increase, but we don't know what that application is.

Look at things from the perspective of the car mfg. If they could get 2%-4% more power just by changing the oil they use for testing, they would do it in a heatbeat because it's a lot cheaper than spending millions a year to improve engine power output.

Hopefully you confirmed that the Torco racing oil you selected SR-5, meets or exceeds VW 502.00 specs. Most oil suppliers publish on their website what mfg. and industry specs each particular oil meets. Racing oils usually do NOT have the proper additive package for street use because racing applications have different requirements than street driven vehicles. It's very important that you only use oils that meet or exceed VW 502.00 spec to satisfy VW's warranty requirements.

VW oil specs are very tough for some companies to meet including big oil companies like Mobil U.S. so if it doesn't say it meets or exceeds VW 502.00 specs, you can be sure it doesn't and is not suitable for your VW R32.



Modified by raceware at 6:24 AM 12-19-2007

[sdoo25]

Quote, originally posted by justinperkins »

Go synthetic or go home. No new cars run on non-synthetic.

I don't want to start an argument but most of GM's new cars run on dino oil:

"The Corvette and a few other GM vehicles are the only ones that require synthetic oil."

Most of the German makes seem to require synthetic oil in their engines. I always use synthetic in our Passat and have used dino in our GM vehicles over the years.

Tom

[TGR]

Quote, originally posted by raceware »

As per the Owner's Manual the correct oil for your engine is VW specification 502.00.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...73105



Modified by TGR at 7:53 AM 12-19-2007

[StoicDude]

Synthetic ONLY for the R (and any other VW, except for some really old ones).

You have 10 000 miles oil change intervals and regular oil wont do well in the engine. Even some synthetics are struggling to keep up with that.

Between the small oil capacity, fuel dilution, US stop and go traffic, short trips, etc synthetic is the only way to go.

I would also make sure that you stick to oils meeting VW 502 00 for warranty purposes.

The VW specs aren't really that hard to meet, but the problem is obtaining the OFFICIAL approval, which means being on the official VW list.
This costs money and some companies choose not to pay that to VAG.

I use Mobil 1 0w-40 in my car (1.8T) because it is readily available, VW approved, has good performance and a decent price.

[justinperkins]

Sorry, I realize my statement was too broad since I couldn't possibly know what every new cars requires.

I have only used synthetic in all my vehicles for a long time, it's better for the engine. Whenever I get an older vehicle, I usually switch it to synthetic as quick as I can. My 87 Mercedes diesel runs much better with synthetic than dino.

[R32 Turbo no more]

0w - 40 Mobile 1 was all I used for over 3 years, and the R was flawless until I sold her.

Steven

[Randy M]

I've topped off with Castrol Syntec 5/40. The cap says Castrol on it and the manual says to use VW approved synthetic 5/40 so I figure I can't do better than that. Finding the stuff is kinda hard though...

[FlyingTurtle]

Lubro Moly 5w40, quality stuff. I can swear engine runs quiter

[cb1111]

Quote, originally posted by Ryan E. »

I just had my 5,000 service and put Torco 5-40w, exceedng vw's recommendation. I'm getting +2mpg around town driving normally (currently 22-23mpg). I havn't done any freeway driving since. The motor feels like it has less resistance with the oil change. Developed under the most severe racing conditions, Torco SR-5 offers the highest level of performance and protection for highly modified race engines. SR-5 utilizes Group IV/V synthetic base oil chemistries and additive technologies engineered to with stand extreme loads, constant severe temperatures and maximum engine revolutions. SR-5 utilizes Torco's race specific MPZ® technology which reduces frictional losses for maximizing horsepower and torque. Features & Benefits - Group IV/V 100% Synthetic Formulas - Maximizes horsepower & torque output by as much as 4% - Reduces engine temperatures - Highest level of engine protection

I don't see that oil on either list.

Just because an oil manufacturer says thir oil meeys VW specs doesn't keep your warranty intact.

Damn, I've got to quit reading that OM....

[RupertX]

Quote, originally posted by sdoo25 »

I don't want to start an argument but most of GM's new cars run on dino oil: "The Corvette and a few other GM vehicles are the only ones that require synthetic oil." Most of the German makes seem to require synthetic oil in their engines. I always use synthetic in our Passat and have used dino in our GM vehicles over the years. Tom

why would anyone argue with facts? GM is just behind trhe times. theyll be all synthetic soon. doesnt surprise me that an american car company still uses petroleum based oil.

[rmorin49]

What about Amsoil or Redline? Do they meet VW specs?

[cb1111]

Quote, originally posted by rmorin49 »

What about Amsoil or Redline? Do they meet VW specs?

Amsoil says it meet specs, but it isn't on the approved list. Neither is Redline, but I don't know if they say they meet the specs.

While I'm sure that using any reputable oil that says it meets specs probably is OK, you may run into warranty issues and I doubt that the oil manufacturer would pay for repairs required because unauthorized oil was used...

[rmorin49]

Does VW recommend a specific brand like BMW does? BMW recommends Castrol.

[raceware]

Quote, originally posted by rmorin49 »

Does VW recommend a specific brand like BMW does? BMW recommends Castrol.

Not officially but they have a deal with Castrol and that is why Castrol is sold at VW Dealers in the U.S. and the oil filler cap on the engine says Castrol on it.

I'd also like to point out that Castrol and other oil companies may offer a 5W-40 oil that does not meet the VW 502.00 specs so it's important to know what you are buying. Even some VW Dealers use the wrong oil for a given VW/Audi engine models like those requiring VW 505.01. It pays to be informed and to verify that you are using the correct oil for your engine.

[Mike Gordon]

Quote, originally posted by RupertX »

why would anyone argue with facts? GM is just behind trhe times. theyll be all synthetic soon. doesnt surprise me that an american car company still uses petroleum based oil.

My brother in law and father in law will be crying when that day comes. They always bag on me that I have to use synthetic when they can go buy their dino oil at Menards for $10 a case. Darn furrin cars.

[sdoo25]

Quote, originally posted by RupertX »

why would anyone argue with facts? GM is just behind trhe times. theyll be all synthetic soon. doesnt surprise me that an american car company still uses petroleum based oil.

I don't really believe that GM is behind the times. Some people don't want to be required to put synthetic oil (or premium fuel for that matter) in their cars, the cost for them is too high ($60 oil changes for synth vs. $22 for dino). I knew the cost to play when I leased my Passat, synth oil and prem fuel, and wouldn't have done it if I didn't want to spend the extra money on these items. Also the overall awesomeness (is that really a word) of the Passat makes it a small price to pay for the experience.

I do agree that all the automakers will (or should) move to all synthetic to conserve the world's petroleum resources. Most likely as the costs for synthetic oil come down, we'll see GM and the other mfg's who still use regular dino oil incorporate synth oil into their cars.

Tom

[twisgabak]

Quote, originally posted by raceware »

Not officially but they have a deal with Castrol and that is why Castrol is sold at VW Dealers in the U.S. and the oil filler cap on the engine says Castrol on it. I'd also like to point out that Castrol and other oil companies may offer a 5W-40 oil that does not meet the VW 502.00 specs so it's important to know what you are buying. Even some VW Dealers use the wrong oil for a given VW/Audi engine models like those requiring VW 505.01. It pays to be informed and to verify that you are using the correct oil for your engine.

Correct me if I'm wrong but Castrol isnt even a full synthetic oil (in NA at least) as oppposed to some other brands.

I personnally use Elf and love it, best oil I ever used so far.

[raceware]

The Castrol products in the U.S. are changing all the time so you really don't know exactly what you are getting. Originally the 5W-40 VW 505.01 spec oil for the PDI Diesels and Audi A6 was being imported from Europe by VW U.S. Then VW U.S. switched to a 5W-30 SLX that the VW Dealers are/were selling. Neither of these oils is/was available from normal retail stores that sell the entire Castrol product line in the U.S. The SLX is sold under the guise of "Professional OE" to try and appease retailers who don't have access to a U.S. produced Castrol oil meeting VW 505.01 specs. AFAIK the VW 502.00 spec Castrol oils are U.S. produced products only.

I haven't investigated all of the brands and types of oils that meet VW specs. Some of the Castrol and other brands/types of oils are semi-synthetic, blends or pure synthetic depending on the product and what day of the week it was produced and in which country and what the position of the moon and Sun was, etc.

That's why using the VW specs is the best means to determine if a particular oil is appropriate for your VW. While a full synthetic oil is preferred not all full synthetic oils meet VW specs yet some blends and semi-synthetics do meet VW specs. The additive package is instrumental in determining the physical properties of the oil in operation. VW and industry associations set specific SAE, ASTM, VW specific and other test parameters that an oil must meet to be approved to a particular oil specification. Some of the specs also state minimum and maximum quantities of certain chemical additives or ash.

It's a complicated situation to formulate a minimum number of oils to meet all of VW's oil specs and other broad based industry specs such as those from ACEA, API, ILSAC, JASO, etc. Oil suppliers try to hit the largest volume market audience. The European oil suppliers cater to the European car market and mfg. specs where as the U.S. oil companies tend to cater to the Big 3 car company products and Japanese products. By comparison in volume not many German cars are bought in America compared to GM, Ford, Chrysler, Honda and Toyota.



Modified by raceware at 10:46 AM 12-20-2007

[mattjv_r32]

For what its worth, the Mobil Oil website http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-En....aspx recommends its Mobil 1 0W-40, a fully synthetic oil http://www.mobiloil.com/usa-en...ion=1

Obviously, this is a biased opinion. Valvoline has a similar thing on their website where you select what kind of car you have and the recommend an oil, but they don't have the 08 R32.

[raceware]

Yeah, the only oil Mobil sells in the U.S. that meets VW 502.00 specs is the 0W-40. That's why they recommend it for all models except Diesel and models requiring VW 505.01 or 506.00. None of the Mobil oils sold in the U.S. meet either of these VW specs.

[justinperkins]

Quote, originally posted by raceware »

Yeah, the only oil Mobil sells in the U.S. that meets VW 502.00 specs is the 0W-40. That's why they recommend it for all models except Diesel and models requiring VW 505.01 or 506.00. None of the Mobil oils sold in the U.S. meet either of these VW specs.

Mobil Delvac 1, which has recently been renamed as Mobil Turbo Diesel oil meets and exceeds the VW 502 oil spec. I use it, they sell it at AutoZone and it is available in gallon jugs online. I've heard that Walmart carries it as well.

http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1719541



Modified by justinperkins at 4:15 PM 12-20-2007

[StoicDude]

Quote, originally posted by justinperkins »

Mobil Delvac 1, which has recently been renamed as Mobil Turbo Diesel oil meets and exceeds the VW 502 oil spec. I use it, they sell it at AutoZone and it is available in gallon jugs online. I've heard that Walmart carries it as well. http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1719541

Sorry Justin, but that oil is not on the approval list. The "meets or exceeds " portion has been discussed on here and other forums. Amsoil, Redline and a number of other oil companies say the same thing, and it is well known that they are not on the VW list.

What does it all mean? Not much. It certainly has no bearing on the performance of the oil, and the Mobil 1 5w-40 TD has proven to be a very good oil.

Some even think it is better than the M1 0w-40 and there are some analysis results that show it as well.

Only thing is, when it comes to warranty you might, and I really mean might, get some issues. Dealers and VW can be sketchy.

To clear thins whole thing up, as it has been done to death on here already, here is the official VW list for the US. These are the oils you should stick to during the warranty period.

Castrol Syntec 5W-40
Chevron Supreme Synthetic 5W-40
Elf Ele Excellium LDX 5W-40
Kendall GT-1 Full synthetic Motor Oil 5W-40
Mobil 1 0W-40
Pennzoil Synthetic European Formula 5W-40
Pennzoil Synthetic European Formula Ultra 5W-30
Quaker State Full Synthetic European Formula 5W-40
Quaker State Full Synthetic European Formula Ultra 5W-30
76 Pure Synthetic Motor Oil 5W-40
Texaco Havoline Synthetic 5W-40
Total Quartz 9000 5W-40
Valvoline Synpower 5W-30
Valvoline Synpower 5W-40

VW used to have the picture of this on their website, but it is not there anymore.

I would think the oil sold at the dealer, Castrol 5w-30 Professional SLX, or whatever it is called, would be safe too.

I ll try to scan and post the actual picture of the list of oils. There is another list on the MKIV R32 forum that has all the oils that are 502 00 approved. This is for the world market and you probably wont find most of those in the US.

[justinperkins]

I already have that list (received from parts dept at local dealership), it is my opinion that the list VW has is extremely out of date (understandably) and I'm sure I'm fine using Mobil Delvac both with regard to warranty work and also my engine lifespan.

Edit: Well actually, I was just looking at the most recent list of The Worldwide list of engine oils which currently meet Volkswagen Oil Quality Standard VW 502 00, VW 505 01 and VW 504 00/507 00 and low and behold, Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel 5w-40 is on this list.

This list I am looking at is dated 9/11/07 (quite recent) and is included in the Bentley Shop Manual.


Modified by justinperkins at 5:34 PM 12-20-2007

[cb1111]

Quote, originally posted by justinperkins »

I already have that list, it is my opinion that the list VW has is extremely out of date (understandably) and I'm sure I'm fine using Mobil Delvac both with regard to warranty work and also my engine lifespan.

Not to be a pain, but you are absolutely wrong. While the oil may meet all the specs of the 502 oil, the mere fact that it isn't on the VW list makes it un-approved.

Ask yourself this question: "if I run into a warranty issue and VW denies warranty repairs because I used unapproved oil, will Mobil pay for my repairs?"

I suspect the answer is no. OTOH, unless your oil change receipts specify the oil used, VW probably won't deny a warranty claim.

The fact remains though, that just because a manufacturer states that a product meets certain specs doesn't make it an approved oil.

You can, of course, use whatever you like, but please do not give other readers the impression that what you are using is approved if it isn't....


Modified by cb1111 at 8:59 PM 12-20-2007

[feels_road]

Here is the 502 & 505 list.


Modified by feels_road at 6:02 PM 12-20-2007

[cb1111]

Quote, originally posted by feels_road »

Here is the 502 & 505 list. Modified by feels_road at 6:02 PM 12-20-2007

VW makes that list so difficult to find?

Justin - I don't see that oil on the list - do you have a newer list that you can post or did you just get a printout from the dealership?

I can tell you from http://forums.audiworld.com/a6/msgs/492877.phtml firsthand experience that dealerships don't take oil very seriously - until it is time to deny a warranty claim. BTW, the GM in this saga got fired by Sonic based on my complaints and major changes made to the service department....

Modified by cb1111 at 9:27 PM 12-20-2007


Modified by cb1111 at 9:28 PM 12-20-2007

[raceware]

Quote, originally posted by justinperkins »

Mobil Delvac 1, which has recently been renamed as Mobil Turbo Diesel oil meets and exceeds the VW 502 oil spec. I use it, they sell it at AutoZone and it is available in gallon jugs online. I've heard that Walmart carries it as well. http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1719541 Modified by justinperkins at 4:15 PM 12-20-2007

CORRECTED !!! Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel TRUCK oil sold in the U.S. has NOT been approved to VW 502.00 specs. The Turbo Diesel oil (Not TRUCK), oil on the VW list is a Euro formulation NOT a U.S. sold Mobil 1 Product.

I spoke with the folks at Mobil a few months ago they were still trying to get approval for 5W-40 VW 502.00 gas and 505.01 Diesel oils.

The Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel oil listed on the Mobil website does NOT say it meets VW 502.00 or 505.01 specs so based on that I posted that the 0W-40 was the only 502.00 approved oil.

http://www.mobil.com/USA-Engli...0.asp

It appears from the Mobil website that Delvac and Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel are the same product under two different names, yet the website does not show any VW spec approvals for the Turbo Diesel Truck product.

From the Mobil 1 website:

Question:

Comparing Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck 5W-40 to Mobil Delvac 1 5W-40
How does the new Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck 5W-40 oil compare to Mobil Delvac 1 5W-40? Which is better for my 2003 Ford F-350 Powerstroke diesel?
-- Greg Braden, Rockford, MI

Answer:

Either brand is a great choice since Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel Truck 5W-40 and Mobil Delvac 1 5W-40 are the same product branded differently for different markets.

http://www.mobiloil.com/USA-En....aspx



Modified by raceware at 6:11 AM 1-26-2008

[Ryan E.]

Trust me, I did my research before using a specific oil. That list isn't the holy grail. he oil I chose exceeds vw's recommendations for my car (502).

Quote, originally posted by cb1111 »

I don't see that oil on either list. Just because an oil manufacturer says thir oil meeys VW specs doesn't keep your warranty intact. Damn, I've got to quit reading that OM....

[justinperkins]

Quote, originally posted by feels_road »

Here is the 502 & 505 list. Modified by feels_road at 6:02 PM 12-20-2007

You may notice that that document is from 2006, like I said before, this list changes often and the list I have in reference is the most recent version I have found and is dated 9/11/2007. The list you have linked to only has 5 Mobil oils in it, but the more recent one has at least double that.

I will put the list (PDF) on the R32 registry site for all to look at. It will probably become outdated in a few months, but at least it's more current than anything else I've seen so far.

Edit: I added the PDF to the R32 site and linked it on the About page: http://www.usr32registry.org/r32s/about

I will try to keep that document up-to-date as best I can.

I created a new thread with the list of oils in it: http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3599947


Modified by justinperkins at 12:38 PM 12-21-2007

[raceware]

Thanks for posting the new list Justin. A lotta typing !

CORRECTED !!! Mobil 1 Turbo Diesel TRUCK oil sold in the U.S. has NOT been approved to VW 502.00 specs. The Turbo Diesel oil (Not TRUCK), oil on the VW list is a Euro formulation NOT a U.S. sold Mobil 1 Product.



Modified by raceware at 6:12 AM 1-26-2008

[StoicDude]

Here is another list I found. This seems to be a TSB.