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    Thread: Subprime Meltdown, the US Housing Market & the Direction of the US Economy in 2009 and 2010

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    1. Senior Member beng's Avatar
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      01-04-2008 08:35 AM #1
      To those of you who got the last thread locked (a thread with 26 pages of interesting discussion and a TON of information)...

      KEEP THIS ON TOPIC

      POST FACTS

      NO PERSONAL ATTACKS OR NAME CALLING

      The thread is about subprime meltdown, the US Housing market and the general direction of the US economy in 2008.

      I'll start by posing a question.
      Where do you think oil will trade in 2008?

      Based on some of the supply and demand characteristics...and the speculative play... I'd be betting we see a pullback in the 1st quarter followed by another bull run that puts it in a $100+ trading range.

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    2. Senior Member beng's Avatar
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      01-04-2008 08:51 AM #2
      ...and here's some news that makes it seem like the other shoe may drop...

      Quote, originally posted by bloomberg »
      BN 08:30 U.S. Payrolls Rose 18,000 in December; Jobless Rate at 5.0%


      By Bob Willis
      Jan. 4 (Bloomberg) -- Hiring in the U.S. slowed more than
      forecast in December and unemployment jumped to a two-year high,
      raising the odds the Federal Reserve will need to cut interest
      rates more than anticipated to ward off an economic slowdown.
      Payrolls rose by 18,000 after a 115,000 gain in November
      that was larger than initially reported, the Labor Department
      said today in Washington. The jobless rate rose to
      5.0 percent, the highest since November 2005, from 4.7 percent in
      November.
      The monthly payroll gain, the smallest since August 2003, is
      the clearest sign yet that the U.S. expansion is at risk amid
      tighter credit, a deeper housing slump and a stumbling stock
      market. Fed policy makers last month lowered growth forecasts and
      said they were concerned a ``marked deceleration'' in spending
      could hurt the economy, according to meeting minutes.
      ``The labor market is loosening up and bodes poorly for
      consumer spending,'' Dana Saporta, an economist at Dresdner
      Kleinwort in New York who had forecast a gain of 40,000, said
      before the report. ``Certainly a slowing labor market would add
      to the risk of recession.''
      Economists surveyed by Bloomberg News had forecast an
      increase of 70,000 in payrolls, according to the median of 74
      estimates, compared with an originally reported gain of 94,000
      in October. Predictions ranged from 34,000 to 106,000.

      Year's Payroll Gains

      The December job gain puts the total payroll increase for
      2007 at 1.33 million, the fewest in four years. The jobless rate
      stood at 4.5 percent at the end of 2006.
      The figures, which show that private payrolls shrank in
      December while government jobs increased, corroborate a private
      survey yesterday that suggested the job market was cooling.
      Companies hired 40,000 additional workers in December, according
      to data compiled by ADP Employer Services. The figures include
      only private employment and don't take into account hiring by
      government agencies.
      The unemployment rate for 2007 averaged 4.6 percent,
      unchanged from 2006. The last time the jobless rate rose more in
      a single month was April 1995.
      Service industries, which include banks, insurance
      Companies and restaurants, added 93,000 workers last
      month after gaining 160,000 jobs in November. Retail employment
      declined by 24,300 after increasing 32,000 in November.

      Factory Payrolls Decline


      Factory payrolls decreased by 31,000 after falling 13,000 a
      month earlier. Economists had forecast a drop of 15,000 in
      manufacturing employment. Builders reduced payrolls by 49,000
      after cutting 37,000 jobs in November.
      Government payrolls increased by 31,000 during the month,
      indicating private payrolls declined by 13,000.
      Residential construction started dropping at the start of
      2006, weakening job growth as builders, mortgage companies and
      manufacturers reduced staff.
      The collapse of the subprime mortgage market in July and
      August hastened firings at financial companies. National City
      Corp., Ohio's largest bank, said this week it would eliminate
      another 900 jobs, bringing total cuts to 3,400, or about 10
      percent of its workforce, in one year.
      The housing market ``corrected with a high degree of
      suddenness,'' Chief Executive Officer Peter Raskind said in an
      interview on Jan. 2.
      Manufacturers are also cutting back as sales of building
      materials, appliances and furniture weaken, reflecting a 34
      percent slump in combined new and existing home sales from their
      July 2005 peak.

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    3. Senior Member beng's Avatar
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      01-04-2008 02:39 PM #3
      More emergency liquidity.... I think its reasonable to say we'll be in recession by the end of Q1/beginning of Q2....

      Quote, originally posted by bloomberg »
      Fed Boosts Next Two Special Auctions to $30 Billion

      By Daniel Kruger
      Jan. 4 (Bloomberg) -- The Federal Reserve said it will
      increase the size of two scheduled auctions of emergency loans
      by 50 percent to $30 billion beginning with the next offering,
      scheduled for Jan. 14.
      The Fed will continue the loan auctions, designed to
      increase the amount of cash available in the banking system,
      ``for as long as necessary,'' it said in a statement released
      today. Since the first of these auctions on Dec. 17, companies'
      cost to borrow in dollars for three months has fallen to the
      lowest in two years, suggesting central banks are succeeding in
      spurring bank lending.
      The Fed's decision to lift the auction size ``tells you
      they think it's working,'' said Andrew Brenner, co-head of
      structured products and emerging markets in New York at MF
      Global Ltd. The Fed wants to employ ``surgical strikes against
      the problem and not just a general overall easing,'' he said.
      The second auction this month will be held on Jan. 28.
      Results will be announced the day following each auction and the
      sales will settle three days after. The Fed will announce its
      plans for February by Feb. 1, the statement said.
      The Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System
      established the temporary Term Auction Facility, dubbed TAF, in
      December to provide cash after interest rate cuts failed to
      break banks' reluctance to lend amid concern about losses
      related to subprime mortgage securities. The program will make
      funding from the Fed available beyond the 20 authorized primary
      dealers that trade with the central bank.

      Rate Cuts

      Policy makers have cut the Fed's target rate for overnight
      loans between banks by 100 basis points to 4.25 percent since
      mid-September, and the discount rate by 150 basis points. A
      basis point is 0.01 percentage point.
      The Fed uses the TAF to auction funds to institutions that
      are eligible to borrow at their discount window. All TAF credit
      must be fully collateralized, and TAF accepts a broad range of
      collateral at the same values and margins applicable for the
      other Fed lending programs.
      On Dec. 21 the Fed and European Central Bank loaned a total
      of $30 billion in 35-day funds at an interest rate of 4.67
      percent, 2 basis points more than at the initial auctions four
      days earlier. The rates were less than the 4.75 percent banks
      are charged to borrow directly at the Fed's discount window,
      suggesting the central bank was making progress in alleviating a


      credit crunch. The Fed auctioned $20 billion in each of those
      instances.
      The three-month London interbank offered rate, a lending
      benchmark that fluctuates depending on how willing banks are to
      lend to each other, fell to 4.62 percent today, the lowest since
      January 2006, according to the British Bankers' Association. The
      rate is 37 basis points above the Fed's target, down from a
      difference of 86 basis points last month, the highest since
      1999.

      The surgical strike approach the article eludes to is Bernanke's way of increasing liquidity, without easing monetary policy... show's you just how concerned he is over the current inflation levels and the valuation of the US dollar. The question is... will it work?

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    4. Member 90Carat's Avatar
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      01-04-2008 03:02 PM #4
      Surgical strikes or band-aids? It will be very interesting to see what happens come spring, when a huge amount of those teaser mortgages are set to adjust.

      Additionally, corporate spending looks like it will decrease over the next quarter or two as well.

      As bad as it would be for the Fed to completely let the open market settle this, I really wish they would.


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      03-27-2008 03:30 PM #5
      Quote, originally posted by adoniram7 »

      I should add, we really aren't going to see another economic renaissance here
      until the corporate tax rates go back down to something competitive.

      something competitive

      http://www.pbs.org/now/politics/corptax2.html

      Corporate Tax Rates and Yours
      In early April 2004, the General Accounting Office (GAO) reported that over 60 percent of all American corporations paid no federal taxes at all from 1996 through 2000. In addition, the GAO found that corporate tax payments as a percent of federal revenue have reached the lowest level since 1983 and now stand second only to rates paid in 1934. In 1960, corporations paid 24% of all federal taxes. In the 1970's, that share fell to 15%. As recently as 1996, it was 12%. When NOW reported on this issue in 2002, corporate taxes made up only about 8% of U.S. revenues, in 2004, that's down again to 7.4%. Those figures come from the Clinton era, before additional corporate tax cuts and tax benefits were put in place.

      Quote, originally posted by adoniram7 »

      I can dream, right?

      yes, 'predictions' are on page#9 .


    6. Senior Member beng's Avatar
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      03-27-2008 04:41 PM #6
      Wow! Cayne dumped all of his BSC shares in the open market today. 5.6 million shares at an average of 10.84.

      Whats that say about a buy and hold strategy in BSC at the moment? I wouldnt be holding on for a higher bid Ill tell you that much.

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    7. 03-28-2008 08:22 AM #7
      Petesell - you're linking to a pbs.org site. Get it?

      Now try this:

      http://www.smbiz.com/sbrl001.html

      Corporate Income Tax Rates--2008, 2007, 2006, 2005, 2004, 2003, 2002, 2000

      Taxable income over, Not over, Tax rate

      $ 0, $ 50,000, 15%
      50,000, 75,000, 25%
      75,000, 100,000, 34%
      100,000, 335,000, 39%
      335,000, 10,000,000, 34%
      10,000,000, 15,000,000, 35%
      15,000,000, 18,333,333, 38%
      18,333,333, .......... , 35%


      Multinationals have the advantage of writing off losses or
      playing other accounting games. I'm specifically talking about
      US corporations, especially where the real innovation comes from,
      small to mid-sized companies. We're killing them with those tax
      rates.


      Modified by adoniram7 at 9:46 AM 3-28-2008

      "None of you understand. I'm not locked up in here with you. You're locked up in here with me."

    8. 03-28-2008 09:44 AM #8
      Now, check this out:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T...world

      Here's Ireland, the new belle of the ball:

      Ireland[2] 12.5%

      There is a very strong correlation between economic prosperity and low
      corporate tax rates.

      "None of you understand. I'm not locked up in here with you. You're locked up in here with me."

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      03-28-2008 02:43 PM #9
      comparing an itsy bitsy tourism based economy to a behemoth consumer driven economy? you're awesome

      now go google 'worldwide taxation', 'transfer of intangible assets' & 'interest paid to a related party' and see what you learn. then google the bermuda project and you can better understand the corpororate tax dynamic at work today. one of the many reasons the national debt has skyrocketed is because most american corporations don't pay taxes any more. they prefer paying off congress to create loopholes allowing them to create subsidiary tax havens in any one of these countries -

      Aguilla, Canary Islands, Guernesey, Monaco, The Principality of St. Christopher and Nevis, Andorra Cayman Islands, Isle of Man, Montserrat, St. Lucia Antigua Channel Islands, Jersey, Nauru, The Republic of St. Vincent, Bahrain, Commonwealth of Bahamas, Liberia. Netherlands Antilles, Tonga, Barbados, Commonwealth of Dominica, The Principality of Liechtenstein, Niue, Turks and Caicos, Belize, Cook Island, The Republic of Maldives, Panama, US Virgin Islands, Bermuda, Gibraltar, The Republic of Marshall Islands, Samoa, The Republic of Vanuatu, British Virgin Islands, Grenada, Mauritius, The Republic of Seychelles.

      this is why GDP has become a less accurate measure of potential federal revenue, or even a good measure of the economy for 90% of the population. since the mid 70's the tax burden has shifted greatly from corporate to the middle class. the corporate tax structure is most definitely on of the many parts of the puzzle that needs a fix. i doubt you understand this though, since you seem more intent on regurgitating reaganesque trickle down silliness. that's been debunked 20 years ago. might want to get up to speed.


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      01-04-2008 02:53 PM #10
      Educate me on this, but isn't a recession every so often a good thing? When things get overinflated, there needs to be a period of contraction. It's all about cycles, IMO.

      Hopefully a recession would force people to save their money and eliminate debt where possible. When people feel they're in a position to spend again, they'll purchase houses, feed the economy, etc and we'll be back up.

      It's just my opinion that growth cannot continue indefinitely. I'm not an economist, so I could be absolutely wrong.


    11. Member jnm2.0t's Avatar
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      01-04-2008 03:41 PM #11
      Quote, originally posted by U n i o n 0015 »
      Educate me on this, but isn't a recession every so often a good thing? When things get overinflated, there needs to be a period of contraction. It's all about cycles, IMO.

      it's not necessarily all about cycles. i think most people would rather see moderate sustainable growth all along, no recession needed. a recession is only good (and a natural occurance really) when the economy gets too far ahead of itself and runs out of steam.

      Quote, originally posted by U n i o n 0015 »
      Hopefully a recession would force people to save their money and eliminate debt where possible. When people feel they're in a position to spend again, they'll purchase houses, feed the economy, etc and we'll be back up.

      problem here is the consumer mindset. what you speak of is in line with a balance sheet recession, repayment of debt and no new borrowing or spending and it actually can further deepen a recession, but at the same time can also shorten it's time span.

      a major issue is manufacturing. right now would be a time for the US to tip the scales of the import/export imbalance more in our favor. the problem is we aren't making as much as we used to. this means we are still importing, which is getting increasingly more expensive. if rates come down it will possibly increase job hiring and spending, but it will also make imports that much more expensive.

      where it stops is yet to be seen. personally i think a few things will keep the economy afloat. first off, housing prices will dip, but i cant imagine the bottom would entirely fall out. there are enough people with enough money out there that love real estate as an investment that will snap up the houses on the market and hold them till this blows over. secondly, the bad habit the american consumer has in overspending may actually help. if we keep spending through this it will may not hurt as badly (but may last longer).

      a f* it... bernake should just jack rates up and see what happens... toss the economy around like one of those snowglobes.

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      01-04-2008 05:11 PM #12
      Thanks for explaining, jnm. Makes sense and I agree that moderate growth is what everybody would love to live with.

      Regarding US manufacturing, wouldn't foreigners look to purchase more American-made products since our currency is lower?

      Take the RE market for example. It appears that more and more foreigners are investing in NYC real estate because their money goes further currently. Wouldn't a similar thing occur in the manufacturing sector? More foreigners want to buy products in the US, therefore US business will increase to compensate for the demand (?).


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      01-04-2008 05:21 PM #13
      Quote, originally posted by U n i o n 0015 »

      Regarding US manufacturing, wouldn't foreigners look to purchase more American-made products since our currency is lower?

      Thats our fear in Canada. With your low currency, you are taking away our exports. Plus you have a lower minimum wage and are more productivity, so it sucks for us.

      Quote, originally posted by U n i o n 0015 »

      Take the RE market for example. It appears that more and more foreigners are investing in NYC real estate because their money goes further currently. Wouldn't a similar thing occur in the manufacturing sector? More foreigners want to buy products in the US, therefore US business will increase to compensate for the demand (?).

      The problem is lack of manufacturing in the States. Asia is still still cheaper to produce in. If gas prices drop (which is my guess) then it would be cheaper to transport from places like China.


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      01-04-2008 05:41 PM #14
      Quote, originally posted by U n i o n 0015 »
      Regarding US manufacturing, wouldn't foreigners look to purchase more American-made products since our currency is lower?

      they should, which is why i say it is a time when we should start to tip the trade deficit back into our favor. however our manufacturing sector isn't strong enough despite what georgie says to have manufacturing be what keeps us out of a recession.

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      01-05-2008 02:11 PM #15
      Quote, originally posted by jnm1point8t »

      they should, which is why i say it is a time when we should start to tip the trade deficit back into our favor. however our manufacturing sector isn't strong enough despite what georgie says to have manufacturing be what keeps us out of a recession.

      We can't tip the scale back with manufacturing. So mentioning that is like regurgitating a chapter from an economics book! Pointless!


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      01-07-2008 01:24 PM #16
      Quote, originally posted by jnm1point8t »

      they should, which is why i say it is a time when we should start to tip the trade deficit back into our favor. however our manufacturing sector isn't strong enough despite what georgie says to have manufacturing be what keeps us out of a recession.

      Georgie said da economy is gud, but der are storm clouds.

      The only thing that will keep "us" meaning the global economy from a flat out implosion is for US consumers to keep spending to maximum potential greater than the previous maximum potential.

      If the USA consumer spends less, the USA consumer economy shrinks far more rapidly than it grew, and many useless eaters cannot be supported, who can guess what happens to them ?



    17. Member jnm2.0t's Avatar
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      01-07-2008 01:34 PM #17
      Quote, originally posted by jnm1point8t »
      where it stops is yet to be seen. personally i think a few things will keep the economy afloat.... secondly, the bad habit the american consumer has in overspending may actually help. if we keep spending through this it will may not hurt as badly (but may last longer).

      Quote, originally posted by Eloi »
      The only thing that will keep "us" meaning the global economy from a flat out implosion is for US consumers to keep spending to maximum potential greater than the previous maximum potential.

      h.o.l.y. crap... we somewhat agree on something.

      though i bet we disagree on what happens if we spend less.

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      01-04-2008 03:37 PM #18
      Quote, originally posted by beng »
      Where do you think oil will trade in 2008?

      If the price of oil drops, it would be a good thing for the American economy. Therefore, me thinks that it will miraculously drop to $70-80 come the end of the year.


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      01-05-2008 02:28 PM #19
      We are anticipating another round of rate cut. market is calling .50% Well, eitherway, it is a bad news all around for US dollars and price of oil etc... Not to mention, the price of precious metal will keep on rising. More job loss is expected and continuing deflation of equities will make it even more hard for the economy to rebound to the point prior to "Irrational Exuberance" Gentlemen, what we are facing here are solid signs of recession which could lead us into something much worse.

      On top of all this, Fed is offering $60 billion to ease the credit crunch they say. So let's fight the inflation risk with more money! What a brilliant idea. Why not? Because the cost will come out of our pockets anyway. And you wonder why IRS was established in the first place?

      Aaaaah the vicious cycle that will never end unless we do away with the Central Banking System and Fiat monetary system. To cut our spending, they need to stop the bleeding of tax payers money in various empire building efforts which benefits NOBODY but transcontinental corporations and those who controls them.


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      01-07-2008 01:39 PM #20
      it is inevitable, yes. hopefully though the economy can begin to right itself before Americans simply cannot spend anymore.

      edit: you also have to understand that probably 90% of all american's have no clue this is happening and won't stop spending. take into consideration that everyone in here pays attention and cares about what is happening. the general population doesn't. if they did this probably wouldn't have happened in the first place.


      Modified by jnm1point8t at 1:45 PM 1-7-2008

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    21. Member jnm2.0t's Avatar
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      01-08-2008 07:05 PM #21
      The same Thom Hartmann that took over on Air America for Al Franken...

      the same Thom Hartman studies the constitution, ADD, ADHD, sprituality, voting fraud, and global warming according to wiki...

      thanks... but how about something from at least an economist, not a jack-of-all-trades talk show host.

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      01-08-2008 07:52 PM #22
      Quote, originally posted by jnm1point8t »
      The same Thom Hartmann that took over on Air America for Al Franken...

      the same Thom Hartman studies the constitution, ADD, ADHD, sprituality, voting fraud, and global warming according to wiki...

      thanks... but how about something from at least an economist, not a jack-of-all-trades talk show host.


      I think he makes more sense with all the data we collectively have in hand than you.


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      01-08-2008 08:11 PM #23
      i dont pretend to be an economist.
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      01-08-2008 08:47 PM #24
      Quote, originally posted by jnm1point8t »
      i dont pretend to be an economist.

      Quote »

      ``With job losses mounting, this could be the tip of the iceberg with consumers needing to rely more on credit cards now that personal income is lagging,'' said Chris Rupkey, an economist at Bank of Tokyo-Mitsubishi, in New York.

      Weak job market, diminishing home equity, weakening US dollar, exploding national and personal debt, tightening credit market, rising energy price, weakening housing market, disappearing manufacturing industry and the list goes on.....



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      01-08-2008 09:04 PM #25
      Quote, originally posted by marzen »
      Weak job market, diminishing home equity, weakening US dollar, exploding national and personal debt, tightening credit market, rising energy price, weakening housing market, disappearing manufacturing industry and the list goes on.....

      I just wonder when you will have something to post in this forum that is truly your own thoughts, and holds some water, not just a couple of drops. You have not even proved that jnm1poin8t was trying to be an economist, you just beat him over the head with citations from articles.

      With the countrywide news, I feel the same as beng. I'm really not sure what to make of the trough that we're in right now. Either way, I hope we all learn something from all of this.

      Quote Originally Posted by Turbiodiesel!
      It really is the perfect, no excuses all-rounder for the rich guy who's accustomed to having it all - the Hybrid version especially. It's like an F-150 Raptor banged an M5 in the men's room of a biker bar. Nobody really wanted the results, but damn - what a set of genes.

    26. 01-08-2008 09:13 PM #26
      Quote, originally posted by marzen »
      Weak job market, diminishing home equity, weakening US dollar, exploding national and personal debt, tightening credit market, rising energy price, weakening housing market, disappearing manufacturing industry and the list goes on.....

      How many of those affect you personally?


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      01-08-2008 09:16 PM #27
      Come on guys, we made it past two pages without folks calling each other out.

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      01-08-2008 09:26 PM #28
      Quote, originally posted by iThread »
      Come on guys, we made it past two pages without folks calling each other out.


      I am abiding by the rule and keeping my posts objective as possible. It is quite amusing when someone actually complaints that I am not posting enough of my own opinion.


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      01-08-2008 09:28 PM #29
      Quote, originally posted by Bob Opla »

      How many of those affect you personally?

      Bob, I think you are confused as to what we are discussing here in this thread. Everything I said above is relevant to "the Direction of the US Economy in 2008" I think you should check the thread title before you post reply here.


    30. 01-08-2008 09:42 PM #30
      Quote, originally posted by marzen »

      I think you should check the thread title before you post reply here.

      not into reading. just posting


    31. Member jnm2.0t's Avatar
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      01-08-2008 09:11 PM #31
      Quote, originally posted by Chris Isodore »
      NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Martin Feldstein, the Harvard economist credited with being one of the fathers of the Bush administration tax cuts, says the U.S. economy is now likely to slip into a recession, and that avoiding one will take a new round of tax cuts and interest rate cuts from the Federal Reserve.

      Feldstein is president and CEO of the National Bureau of Economic Research (NBER), the organization charged with determining when the economy is in a recession and when it is growing. He told CNNMoney.com that he had thought the chance of a recession was about 50-50 even before last week.

      But he said he now believes a recession is likely, as he pointed to both a report from the Institute of Supply Management showing manufacturing activity in decline for the first time in almost a year, and Friday's December jobs report that showed a jump in the unemployment rate to a two-year high.

      He did not give a new percentage for the chance of a recession, saying that will depend on what both the Federal Reserve and Congress and the administration do in response to the weakness.

      "It's not just clear that lower interest rates and monetary policy more generally will have enough traction because of conditions in the credit market," he said when asked if the Fed could hold off a recession. "We should have some fiscal stimulus to back that up."

      from here posted today, 1/8/08.

      leading economists are also uncertain about what will happen. recession likely? according to this guy, yes. recession defininate, according to this guy, no.

      edit for date typo


      Modified by jnm1point8t at 7:13 AM 1-9-2008

      They're steppin' on my rhythm and they're stealin' all my lines

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      01-08-2008 09:38 PM #32
      Quote, originally posted by jnm1point8t »

      from here posted today, 1/8/07.

      leading economists are also uncertain about what will happen. recession likely? according to this guy, yes. recession defininate, according to this guy, no.

      You just proved my point. That article was dated back in January of 07?
      Mr. Feldstein was actually ahead of his peers. And boy how much has changed in terms of unfolding data since then? Recession has already begun.


      Modified by marzen at 6:40 PM 1-8-2008


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      01-08-2008 10:04 PM #33
      Mr. Feldstein said Recession is "Likely". "Definite" was your word. that is like adding words to the original article. Who does that?

      Here is another article pointing to the fact that we are already in Recession.
      http://seekingalpha.com/articl...-here

      How about BBC article? is that legit enough for you? Truth is, mainstream media is now reporting inevitable recession. Many of us predicted this nearly a year ago.

      http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7176255.stm

      BTW, you should be fine with this articles as they all cite the report from an "ECONOMIST" a chief North American economist at that.

      Quote »
      The U.S. economy has landed in recession, according to an economist at brokerage firm Merrill Lynch.

      David Rosenberg, Merrill Lynch's chief North American economist, said Friday’s employment report — which showed the U.S. jobless rate jumped to a two-year high of five per cent in December on weaker-than-expected job creation — "strongly suggests that an official recession has arrived."





      Modified by marzen at 7:12 PM 1-8-2008

    34. Member jnm2.0t's Avatar
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      01-09-2008 06:06 AM #34
      Quote, originally posted by marzen »
      Mr. Feldstein said Recession is "Likely". "Definite" was your word. that is like adding words to the original article. Who does that?

      i never said 'definite' came from the article.


      Modified by jnm1point8t at 6:30 AM 1-9-2008

      They're steppin' on my rhythm and they're stealin' all my lines

      Every day on the bike is a day not in the Fusion.

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      01-10-2008 10:58 AM #35
      i agree beng... probably not the best place for your money overall, but as a gauge of the economy, 2-5% with all that has happened in the housing market would be ok by me.
      They're steppin' on my rhythm and they're stealin' all my lines

      Every day on the bike is a day not in the Fusion.

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