Username or Email Address
Do you already have an account?
Forgot your password?
  • Log in or Sign up

    VWVortex


    Links back to The Car Lounge (opens in same window)
    Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
    Results 1 to 35 of 56

    Thread: Gordon Murray talks about the NSX

    1. Banned 1SICKLEX's Avatar
      Join Date
      Dec 8th, 2001
      Location
      ____________________
      Posts
      20,046
      Vehicles
      Beige hybrid fancy Toyota and other fancy dumb Toyotas
      03-03-2008 11:39 PM #1
      http://docs.google.com/View?do...nscht

      http://docs.google.com/View?do...nscht

      To this day, the NSX is still a car that is near and dear to my heart. I put 75,000 Km on my NSX over the course of six or seven years.

      It's very difficult to discuss the NSX using current values and sensibilities. When the NSX debuted, the word "supercar" was still a relatively new idea in Europe. There are some who would say the Lamborghini Miura from the late 1960s was the first supercar. However, the truth is the explosion of modern supercars really started at the end of the 1980s.

      At the end of the 80s was the time when McLaren Cars was conceiving the idea for the McLaren F1. To that end, I was concentrating on coming up with what I wanted in a road car.

      To my thinking, the ideal car is one in which I could get in the driver's seat and be out for a drive in downtown London, and then want to continue straight on to southern France. A car that you can trust, with functional air conditioning, and retains daily drivability. No offset pedals allowed. No high dashboards restricting your view either. Having a low roof hitting your head every time you go over a bump in the name of aerodynamics and styling is out of the question. It is essential that a supercar be a pleasure to drive, and anything detracting from that must be excised.

      I started by driving the cars known then as "supercars." The Porsche 959, Bugatti EB110, Ferrari F40, Jaguar XJ220. Unfortunately, none of these fit the pattern of the supercar we were trying to build. What we wanted was a relatively compact, usable driver's car. The Porsche 911 had the usability, but with the engine packed in the back, it had a weakness in its handling stability.

      During this time, we were able to visit with Ayrton Senna (the late F1 Champion) and Honda's Tochigi Research Center. The visit related to the fact that at the time, McLaren's F1 Grand Prix cars were using Honda engines.

      Coincidentally, I spotted an NSX prototype parked near the course. I also learned at the time that Ayrton was assisting in the development of the NSX. And that Honda rear mid-engined sports car--the NSX--was the friendly supercar that we had been looking for. This car had perfectly functional air conditioning, a reasonably roomy trunk, and of course, it was a Honda, with the high levels of quality and reliability that implies.

      Then I had the opportunity to drive it. Along with Ron Dennis (President, McLaren Cars) and Mansour Ojjeh (Tag McLaren Group Representative), we drove the prototype on the Tochigi Research Center test course. I remember being moved, thinking, "It is remarkable how our vision comes through in this car."

      Of course as you know, the engine has only six cylinders; however, the NSX's very rigid chassis is excellent and would easily be capable of handling more power. Although it's true I had thought it would have been better to put a larger engine, the moment I drove the "little" NSX, all the benchmark cars--Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborghini--I had been using as references in the development of my car vanished from my mind. Of course the car we would create, the McLaren F1, needed to be faster than the NSX, but the NSX's ride quality and handling would become our new design target.

      When working on the development of a new car for years, it's easy to be caught in certain pitfalls. When you drive the car under development for testing every day (in truth, I was responsible for two-thirds of the testing for the McLaren F1), in that time, you can unknowingly convince yourself you are making progress when in fact you are not. For example, it's human nature that at the end of a long day you may want to think that your efforts to reduce low speed harshness are working better than they are. It is at times like this when you need a car to compare with. In those situations, the NSX time and again showed us the path in the areas of ride quality and handling, and also helped us recognize when we weren't making as much progress as we thought.

      In my opinion, the NSX's most special quality has long been overlooked.

      That could be summarized with the words, "The NSX's suspension is amazing."

      Both the body and suspension are aluminum, and it probably couldn't be helped that journalists' attention has been focused on praising the aluminum body. However, the suspension is the much more impressive use of aluminum.

      It's lightweight, tough, yet compliant. Also contributing to the refined NSX's handling and ride quality are 17 inch wheels and tires that are not overly large. The NSX's suspension is truly an ingenious system, and back then I imagined the development costs must have been enormous. To achieve that unparalleled accuracy and superior ride quality, longitudinal wheel movement is allowed via the use of a compliance pivot. (※)

      (※) Compliance refers to when you travel over a bump, the tire experiences a longitudinal force, which the tire and suspension must move with and absorb the shock. The pivot couples the upper and lower arms. It is connected to the arms via ball joints so that they move as a unit. When encountering input, the pivot rotates, keeping alignment changes to near zero while retaining compliance (see diagram). The inspiration obtained from this NSX suspension system would later influence the development of the McLaren F1's suspension.

      The NSX was also the first car to use DBW (Drive By Wire). It felt very pleasing. DBW is when instead of using a mechanical cable, an electronic signal is used to communicate throttle position. It achieved a very natural, linear feeling throttle, and I can now hide my embarrassment and confess that I copied the idea during the development of the McLaren F1 (laughs).

      The low-slung NSX's driver's seat position also provided just the right head clearance and an amazing field of view. The NSX development team moved the air conditioning unit away from the dash and deep into the NSX's nose in order to obtain more space. That air conditioning unit is an excellent one, and normally, you don't notice whether it's on or not.

      On the day I bought the NSX, I pressed the "Auto" button and since then until selling it, I never had to touch it. It was that perfect. Ah, I also remember the audio system as being very good.

      However, the media wrote up the aluminum body, and the many merits and advantages I perceived in the NSX have largely been overlooked.

      In my opinion, the NSX, while being such a great sports car, had two large flaws in it's marketing. First, at the time, the public was not ready to accept a Japanese car that was this expensive. The second is that for supercar customers, the power figures were not quite high enough. Of course, the prototype's engine was not bad, and soon the VTEC engine was added. Whenever I hear that VTEC sound it's amazing. I am repeating myself, but the NSX's excellent chassis would have been capable of handling much more power.

      With just a slightly lower price, or possibly selling it with a different brand name and a different badge, or perhaps endowing it with a touch flashier and more aggressive styling and additional power, there is no question the NSX would have reigned as a cult star of the supercars.

      However, during that time, in Honda's philosophy there was a resistance to large engines with many cylinders. I am not certain, but probably at the time, the voluntary restraint on power limits was a factor. Being a fan of Honda engines, I later went to Honda's Tochigi Research Center on two occasions and requested that they consider building for the McLaren F1 a 4.5 liter V10 or V12. I asked, I tried to persuade them, but in the end could not convince them to do it, and the McLaren F1 ended up equipped with a BMW engine.

      The NSX's development costs must have been enormous. Everything on it is unique. The chassis, powertrain, even the air conditioning are peerless. That aluminum body was very expensive. The numerous hurdles overcome by the NSX to reach production in areas such as spot welding, corrosion, and repairability make it a monumental work in automotive history. The philosophy of creating a car for human beings is apparent throughout. If it were me, I probably would not have obsessed over the aluminum and would have settled for a steel structure with aluminum panels to try to achieve a similar weight reduction. But what I really want to emphasize is the suspension. It is a a groundbreaking use of aluminum.

      There are a few things that could be improved on the NSX. First, the tires are too soft. Over the seven years I ran mine, I went through 14 sets of tires. After changing over to harder-compound Michelins in the rear, my tire life increased. As a result, rear grip was decreased slightly, but driving became more fun. The NSX's traction control and ABS are first generation systems and as a result are somewhat slow-acting. I also missed having more storage space in the interior. However, such things hardly seem significant in a sports car of this caliber.

      The NSX is a landmark car. It awoke not only a lazy Ferrari, but Porsche as well and sparked advances in usability, ergonomics, and handling. It may not have achieved success from a marketing standpoint, but many influential and important people have owned them. The NSX is also unusual in that it continued to be on sale for so long. If I were to looking for that type of car now, I would--without a doubt--gladly own an NSX


    2. 03-03-2008 11:43 PM #2
      Murray is brilliant, I love his sensibilities, and love reading his articles... But EVERYTHING is always discussed alongside the F1. Granted, the car is brilliant, and really is a fair benchmark in many respects... But sheesh!

    3. Banned 1SICKLEX's Avatar
      Join Date
      Dec 8th, 2001
      Location
      ____________________
      Posts
      20,046
      Vehicles
      Beige hybrid fancy Toyota and other fancy dumb Toyotas
      03-03-2008 11:45 PM #3
      Quote, originally posted by SebringMGB »
      Murray is brilliant, I love his sensibilities, and love reading his articles... But EVERYTHING is always discussed alongside the F1. Granted, the car is brilliant, and really is a fair benchmark in many respects... But sheesh!

      Murray is right behind George Washington on the scale of men


    4. Member BTM's Avatar
      Join Date
      Feb 19th, 2007
      Location
      Chicago Suburbs
      Posts
      8,083
      Vehicles
      '88 300te, '14 XV Crosstrek
      03-03-2008 11:47 PM #4
      man he really likes that air conditioning

      good read


    5. Member lip's Avatar
      Join Date
      Apr 28th, 2000
      Posts
      7,777
      Vehicles
      2010 CTS-V
      03-04-2008 12:03 AM #5
      great read

    6. Member Süsser Tod's Avatar
      Join Date
      Aug 3rd, 2001
      Location
      Mexico City, Mexico
      Posts
      4,106
      Vehicles
      GSX-R600, KLE650, SV1000
      03-04-2008 01:11 AM #6
      I don't think he is right in the part of the numbers not being impressive enough.

      I can recall several magazines praising the NSX for its performance, comparing it to the Ferrari 348. Basically it beated it in every single aspect, except for the badge.

      I think it was road and track, but the last line in the article was something like "The NSX is the better supercar, but the 348 is the better exotic".


    7. 03-04-2008 01:12 AM #7
      Whoa I didn't know that bit about going to Honda first for the McLaren engine. That was definitely a nice read.

    8. Member Internal Combustion's Avatar
      Join Date
      Apr 17th, 2007
      Location
      Columbus, OH
      Posts
      4,767
      Vehicles
      JB4 335xi, Prius
      03-04-2008 01:21 AM #8
      Quote, originally posted by SebringMGB »
      Murray is brilliant, I love his sensibilities, and love reading his articles... But EVERYTHING is always discussed alongside the F1. Granted, the car is brilliant, and really is a fair benchmark in many respects... But sheesh!

      If you were responsible for the McLaren F1, wouldnt YOU talk about it constantly?

      TCL pearl #452: You cannot name a car that would not be improved with a LSx engine.

      335- 12.2@115

    9. Member BTM's Avatar
      Join Date
      Feb 19th, 2007
      Location
      Chicago Suburbs
      Posts
      8,083
      Vehicles
      '88 300te, '14 XV Crosstrek
      03-04-2008 01:38 AM #9
      Quote, originally posted by cray Z »
      Whoa I didn't know that bit about going to Honda first for the McLaren engine. That was definitely a nice read.

      kinda caught me off guard as well, but it makes sense when you consider that mclaren f1 cars were honda powered in the late 80s/early 90s around the same time the f1 was being developed


    10. Member Black Jetta GT's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jan 10th, 2003
      Location
      Pittsburgh
      Posts
      3,347
      Vehicles
      2007 Mazda 3 HB
      03-04-2008 01:50 AM #10
      Quote, originally posted by Internal Combustion »

      If you were responsible for the McLaren F1, wouldnt YOU talk about it constantly?

      Damn straight I would! I'd call its name out in my sleep!


    11. 03-04-2008 01:58 AM #11
      Quote, originally posted by 1SICKLEX »

      Murray is right behind George Washington on the scale of men


      That is the best pict I've seen in yrs!


    12. 03-04-2008 02:38 AM #12
      i would rock an NSX right this instant.. still one of my alltime favorites

    13. Vortex Media Group Staff Tim@VMG's Avatar
      Join Date
      Dec 11th, 2001
      Location
      Baltimore, MD
      Posts
      18,505
      Vehicles
      2012 GTI Autobahn
      03-04-2008 08:05 AM #13
      Heh...

      That was a pretty good read. The man has a large ego, but he does know what the hell he's talking about!

      Unfortunately, reading that makes me want an NSX. I've always kind of had a thing for them.

      -Tim

      The artist formerly known as SilverSLC
      Forum Rules | How To Use vBulletin

      VWVortex | Fourtitude | INR8 | Kilometer Magazine | Swedespeed
      "When you're traveling at lower speeds, and by lower speeds I mean anything under 120 miles per hour..." -Allan McNish

    14. Member Tornado2dr's Avatar
      Join Date
      Mar 31st, 2001
      Location
      Split Pants, VA
      Posts
      12,096
      03-04-2008 08:14 AM #14
      Quote, originally posted by SilverSLC »
      Heh...

      That was a pretty good read. The man has a large ego, but he does know what the hell he's talking about!

      I concur. I still disliked reading it, awaiting for the required GM self-high five with handjob that he always gives himself.
      I don't think I have every read an article or interview of his that didn't include "...but the f1 was different..." or "but we had a better plan with the f1".
      It reduces the image of the F1 in my mind everytime he fawns over his own creation and tells the world how much better it is than all others. There is a lot ot be said for allowing something to stand on it's own merits.


    15. Member atomicalex's Avatar
      Join Date
      Feb 2nd, 2001
      Location
      Detroit and Düsseldorf
      Posts
      13,249
      Vehicles
      dark blue stick shift station wagon, shiny yellow motorbike, dirty green motorbike
      03-04-2008 08:25 AM #15
      I have had wistful feelings for the NSX since its debut. Maybe one day. I regard it as the Honda of exotics - perfectly refined and executed, then kissed by Soichiro himself.
      A(u). Klasse A, unbeschrankt, ungedrosselt
      Compared to a British roadster, all Volkswagens are reliable!

      nevAr Lose - DE Minister of Foreign Affairs and Deputy Bankruptcy Controller - IPROfftopikstan

    16. Member Professor Gascan's Avatar
      Join Date
      Sep 11th, 2002
      Location
      Canada
      Posts
      10,150
      03-04-2008 08:30 AM #16
      I would still love to own an NSX-R. Hopefully the 15 year rule still applies when the 05 JDM cars become available. Murray is absolutely right about the NSX's ride though. It has the best primary and secondary ride of any sportscar that I've driven.
      Fires are the leading cause of fires.

    17. Vortex Media Group Staff Tim@VMG's Avatar
      Join Date
      Dec 11th, 2001
      Location
      Baltimore, MD
      Posts
      18,505
      Vehicles
      2012 GTI Autobahn
      03-04-2008 08:31 AM #17
      Quote, originally posted by atomicalex »
      I regard it as the Honda of exotics

      Which it is?

      -Tim

      The artist formerly known as SilverSLC
      Forum Rules | How To Use vBulletin

      VWVortex | Fourtitude | INR8 | Kilometer Magazine | Swedespeed
      "When you're traveling at lower speeds, and by lower speeds I mean anything under 120 miles per hour..." -Allan McNish

    18. Member axe's Avatar
      Join Date
      Apr 29th, 2005
      Location
      Moncton, Canada
      Posts
      12,400
      Vehicles
      2009 Fit, 1972 CB750 K2
      03-04-2008 08:44 AM #18
      Your search for "McLaren" returned 11 results.

      █ ♣ █ + | Sunlight on chrome, the blur of the landscape... every nerve aware

    19. Member
      Join Date
      Jun 10th, 2000
      Location
      Motown
      Posts
      18,881
      Vehicles
      1957 Testa Rossa
      03-04-2008 09:10 AM #19
      Ferraris and Lambos are supercars that you drool over as a youth... or when you have money to burn as an adult.

      The NSX is the car you can actually ponder (consider buying... pseudo within reach of some of us) new or used as a middleclass/uppermiddleclasser, because it is... a real car... with quite enough performance for the "common man/woman" and without the eccentricities of exotics.

      That is my dreamy car (the Testa Rossa is still my dream car). The thing that makes it so damn cool to me is how HONDA it is. Everything about it epitomizes what Honda's philosophy in cars are... even as a super one.

      Great driving position without negatives like insanely horrendous exotic visibility.

      Great powertrain engineering.

      Great Chassis/supsension engineering.

      Great god almighty, I need one before I die!


      Modified by uncleho at 6:12 AM 3-4-2008


    20. Geriatric Member AKADriver's Avatar
      Join Date
      Nov 20th, 2001
      Location
      Unreal VA
      Posts
      40,933
      Vehicles
      NB Miata, تويوتا تاكوما
      03-04-2008 09:16 AM #20
      Yeah... in that regard it's a lot like the Corvette, though with a decidedly more "exotic" design, even if the performance envelope isn't much different (comparing same years - obviously newer 'vettes are faster). It's got exotic performance... but it's a Chevrolet that can get warranty service in Butt Fudge Egypt.

      The NSX has been an object of lust for me since before I knew what lust was - the original US magazine tests on the car's release just happened to coincide with my 10th birthday, and my 10th birthday present was basically every car magazine on the rack at the time.

      I had no idea Gordon Murray was such a fan, too.

      Splinter - Team Post-Killing Ninja
      I don't practice llanteria

    21. 03-04-2008 09:24 AM #21
      Quote, originally posted by BTM »
      man he really likes that air conditioning

      good read


      OK, so I'm not the only one who caught that. I guess good A/C in a supercar is really impressive

    22. 03-04-2008 11:04 AM #22
      Quote, originally posted by kerridwen »
      I don't think he is right in the part of the numbers not being impressive enough.

      The problem was, Honda moved the target for these kinds of cars, and then Ferrari and Porsche moved the performance target even higher. Honda failed to respond afterwards and got left behind.

      By 1995 the car should have received the styling update that it finally got in 2002, and they should have introduced a V8 powerplant what was comparable to Ferrari's. There is no doubt that Honda has the technical knowledge to build such an engine, but it simply never has.

      Nonetheless, I love the NSX. I used to think that I would own one, but now I'm not so sure. The S2000, though much less of a car that it is, pretty much satisfies my sports car cravings, and the roof folds down.


    23. 03-04-2008 11:16 AM #23
      Murray is really spot on with this article.

      People today tend to overlook the NSX because it only had a 3 or 3.2l V6 with the hp of an average family sedan today at onset, and at the end of an entry level sport sedan, but the NSX was so much more. If the NSX wouldnt have been developed I'd ventue to say that we wouldnt have the current F-cars we do today, or maybe not een the super exotics like the Veyron.

      Simply put it woke upo the entire high end car industry. The NSX did everything so well, but it was comfortable, well built, not extremely expensive to maintain and you could drive it like a honda, which means you follow the mainitance schedule, replace brakes and tires, and your fine. In contrast the ferrari's of the 80's to early 90's were trash, same with lambo's, astons, etc.


    24. 03-04-2008 11:18 AM #24
      Quote, originally posted by riceburner2 »

      The problem was, Honda moved the target for these kinds of cars, and then Ferrari and Porsche moved the performance target even higher. Honda failed to respond afterwards and got left behind.

      By 1995 the car should have received the styling update that it finally got in 2002, and they should have introduced a V8 powerplant what was comparable to Ferrari's. There is no doubt that Honda has the technical knowledge to build such an engine, but it simply never has.

      Nonetheless, I love the NSX. I used to think that I would own one, but now I'm not so sure. The S2000, though much less of a car that it is, pretty much satisfies my sports car cravings, and the roof folds down.

      this is true also, honda did rest on its laurels with not releasing bigger updates, but it is interesting that in its 10 year run the car only had minor updates, and even at the end it was still a fantastic car that besides outright speed, could still run with some of the best.


    25. 03-04-2008 01:17 PM #25
      I remember in the earlier part of the 90's a friend of our was bragging that he had the NSX engine in his Acura and so his car could go just as fast and I rolled my eyes.

      I don't think anybody said "It's just a Honda." about the NSX even when it first came out (although they might have roled out the "It's got no soul!" trope).

      I think the majority of people were blown away by it.


    26. Member maskedSONY's Avatar
      Join Date
      Nov 7th, 2000
      Posts
      8,482
      Vehicles
      2007 Accord EX-L
      03-04-2008 01:20 PM #26
      Quote, originally posted by snb3 »
      That is the best pict I've seen in yrs!

      SERIOUSLY! Is that offered in any higher resolutions? Also what city is that?




      Modified by maskedSONY at 1:22 PM 3-4-2008

      Quote Originally Posted by Turbiodiesel!
      It really is the perfect, no excuses all-rounder for the rich guy who's accustomed to having it all - the Hybrid version especially. It's like an F-150 Raptor banged an M5 in the men's room of a biker bar. Nobody really wanted the results, but damn - what a set of genes.

    27. Member TheOrange's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jul 15th, 2003
      Location
      Lexington, MA
      Posts
      5,267
      Vehicles
      94 Porsche 968 coupe, 01 Audi S4 Avant
      03-04-2008 01:23 PM #27
      so how others have already checked on NSX prices after reading that?

    28. Member AutoEuphoria's Avatar
      Join Date
      Oct 1st, 2007
      Location
      Mid-Michigan
      Posts
      4,459
      Vehicles
      '04 GTO
      03-04-2008 01:27 PM #28
      I have to agree with the people who said that he mentions the F1 too much. I've read articles of his before in Evo magazine, and he always goes back and talks about the F1...or what he was faced with when designing the F1...or how the actual topic is worse than the F1...it just really reminds me of the guy who will not shut up about being the quarterback for the highschool football team when they won the state championship. It's like, "yeah, that was a great accomplishment...but you're 50 now...get over it". The F1 will probably always be one of the cars that I desire the most...but damn...no need to bring it up in EVERY SINGLE ARTICLE you write.

      He sure as hell doesn't mention the SLR much


      Modified by AutoEuphoria at 10:28 AM 3-4-2008


    29. Geriatric Member AKADriver's Avatar
      Join Date
      Nov 20th, 2001
      Location
      Unreal VA
      Posts
      40,933
      Vehicles
      NB Miata, تويوتا تاكوما
      03-04-2008 01:28 PM #29
      Quote, originally posted by Jettavr666 »
      this is true also, honda did rest on its laurels with not releasing bigger updates, but it is interesting that in its 10 year run the car only had minor updates, and even at the end it was still a fantastic car that besides outright speed, could still run with some of the best.

      It wasn't so much resting on laurels as having its hands tied. They hit the 276hp "ceiling" in Japan and that was that. Look at the nonsense the Nissan GT-R has had to go through, with stern warnings in the manual against modifying the car and an ECU that locks the speed limiter to 112 unless the GPS determines you're on a race track. That's not to say Honda couldn't have made the sacrifices necessary to produce a 400+hp car in that kind of climate, but playing nice with regulatory constraints (rather than fighting them tooth and nail the way most car companies do) has always been Honda's prerogative.

      Splinter - Team Post-Killing Ninja
      I don't practice llanteria

    30. Member Golfotron's Avatar
      Join Date
      Apr 16th, 2006
      Location
      Milton, ON
      Posts
      2,964
      Vehicles
      97 Golf GL, 10AE Miata
      03-04-2008 01:52 PM #30
      I have lusted over the NSX since the first time I used it in the Gran Turismo demo on Play Station. Loved how the rear wing was part of the trunk.

    31. 03-04-2008 02:15 PM #31
      Quote, originally posted by AKADriver »

      It wasn't so much resting on laurels as having its hands tied. They hit the 276hp "ceiling" in Japan and that was that. Look at the nonsense the Nissan GT-R has had to go through, with stern warnings in the manual against modifying the car and an ECU that locks the speed limiter to 112 unless the GPS determines you're on a race track. That's not to say Honda couldn't have made the sacrifices necessary to produce a 400+hp car in that kind of climate, but playing nice with regulatory constraints (rather than fighting them tooth and nail the way most car companies do) has always been Honda's prerogative.

      I see exactly where you're coming from, and would agree with you, except I have now seen Honda rest on their laurels with the S2000. Which certainly could have sold much better with more motor and some updates- real updates, not the trim variations it got.

      The fact is, Honda is just not committed to marketing real sports cars. They can design a car that is just as good as anyone else's, but they are not committed to putting the effort into keeping it current. As much as I love my S2000, and I still think it's a great buy for a $30k convertible, time has passed it by. It's just not a market factor anymore.


    32. 03-04-2008 02:46 PM #32
      Quote, originally posted by maskedSONY »

      SERIOUSLY! Is that offered in any higher resolutions? Also what city is that?


      Modified by maskedSONY at 1:22 PM 3-4-2008

      I believe it Hong Kong. Almost made it there for the handover to China a few yrs back.


    33. 03-04-2008 03:31 PM #33
      Quote, originally posted by 1SICKLEX »

      That is the car of my dreams.


    34. Banned 1SICKLEX's Avatar
      Join Date
      Dec 8th, 2001
      Location
      ____________________
      Posts
      20,046
      Vehicles
      Beige hybrid fancy Toyota and other fancy dumb Toyotas
      03-04-2008 03:52 PM #34
      Quote, originally posted by maskedSONY »

      SERIOUSLY! Is that offered in any higher resolutions? Also what city is that?


      Modified by maskedSONY at 1:22 PM 3-4-2008

      Thats Victoria Peak in Hong Kong!


    35. Member jmj's Avatar
      Join Date
      Feb 6th, 2001
      Location
      MA
      Posts
      3,890
      Vehicles
      06 GTI
      03-04-2008 04:16 PM #35
      I always wanted to drive one of these cars. Can you imagine the complaints about wheel gap from the MkV crowd?

      Quote Originally Posted by Taipei_E92 View Post
      If you generalize...you are always going to get it wrong.

    Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •