Ford Zetec Vanagon conversion

[Sonicstereo]

Quote, originally posted by eunos94 »

It's an odd little vehicle it really is I will grant you that. It is shorter than your average Honda Accord yet somehow feels cavernous inside. It has all the handling prowess of a city bus (and driving position too) yet remains fun to drive. The sit up and beg driving position, the feeling of freedom that comes with owning such a versatile vehicle, the bread box looks, the way it trundles down the road. It all sort of slows you down and forces you to regain your perspective. It's a neat experience and one I recommend highly to anyone in need of a bit of... introspective and de-stressing.

All the above for me as well. Mine is a camper that I use as a mountain bike platform, etc.

After driving the Vanagon for awhile, I notice I don't drive my other cars as fast. Probably because 75 feels like you are actually flying in a breadbox,lol.

[rs4-380]

Quote, originally posted by BRealistic »

Are those Subaru engine models ones that fall under the headgasket issues?

you can use pretty much any ej engine, from the 1.8 to an sti motor. Yes, the early dohc 2.5's had headgasket issues, but the later SOHC 2.5's were much better, and the 2.2's have been around in some form since the early 90's. I'm sure foci were produced in higher numbers, but given that the ej series has been produced for longer, has more variants, and was used in more vehicles, i'd venture to say it's much easier to find a subaru motor in a junkyard.

[BRealistic]

Quote, originally posted by rs4-380 »

i'd venture to say it's much easier to find a subaru motor in a junkyard.

...in your area.

Don't forget that Subarus loose most of their appeal once you get below the snow belt. The all wheel drive just means they cost more to most buyers in my area. Older Suabrus are a very rare sight here.
Yet Zetec's have been sold since the 98 model year in Escort ZX2s, and ZX2s and later Focus models were sold in high numbers everywhere.

[251]

Quote, originally posted by Download_Complete »

Personally, I just don't see the appeal of Vanagons....

My Vanagons are the only VWs I've owned that I miss and are the only VW I would consider owning again.

...sold this one after 19 years

[B3passatBMX]

If a Zetec fits in, I believe the 2.5 duratec V6 uses the same mounts so seems one would fit in about the same. SVT Contour engine swap???

[Download_Complete]

Quote, originally posted by B3passatBMX »

If a Zetec fits in, I believe the 2.5 duratec V6 uses the same mounts so seems one would fit in about the same. SVT Contour engine swap???

OKay, now we're talking.

Lets go one better. 3.0L Duratec with the 2.5 Duratec SVT heads. 250 hp Vana-gone, anyone?

[BRealistic]

Quote, originally posted by Download_Complete »

OKay, now we're talking. Lets go one better. 3.0L Duratec with the 2.5 Duratec SVT heads. 250 hp Vana-gone, anyone?

I hate to be the buzz killer at the luv fest, but an OHC V6 is going to be a lot wider than an inline four. It may not fit very well.

And these engine swaps seem to be about making the Van a viable driver, not a performance van. I do wonder why some larger fours- like the Nissan 2.5 and Honda (accord) 2.4 haven't been used.

[VWturbonium]

Quote, originally posted by BRealistic »

I hate to be the buzz killer at the luv fest, but an OHC V6 is going to be a lot wider than an inline four. It may not fit very well. And these engine swaps seem to be about making the Van a viable driver, not a performance van. I do wonder why some larger fours- like the Nissan 2.5 and Honda (accord) 2.4 haven't been used.

I know most van swaps aren't for drag racing or performance, but considering most vans will be hauling stuff I think people would be alot happier with motors like a nissan KA24 or even an old 22RE, for the price of a Zetec i think you could find some more torque-biased options out there.

After poking around a bit, a Subaru EJ25 SOHC seems to be the best option, plenty of HP and torque for a Westy, fit in the stock engine bay like they were designed to be there, and the SOHC's don't have the HG issues like the DOHC's do.


Modified by VWturbonium at 12:51 PM 3-24-2008

[eunos94]

There have been several Nissan 3.5 V6 conversions, Subaru Flat 4's including Turbos, TDi, Zetec, VR6, 2.0 16V, 1.8 8V and I'm sure many others.

I like that the Subaru motors keep it a water cooled flat 4 and thusly keep the correct engine note while vastly increasing the reliability. It can even greatly increase the horsepower. I think the Zetec conversion is a goodun' and probably a lot easier for most Americans to source at their local pick a part.

I still dream of a Diesel Vanagon Westy.... maybe one day.

Even a stock 82 Westy Diesel is fine by me. I drove one for about 100 miles on back roads and bi ways. It was a delight. Sure it was slow but no slower than a class A motor home and certainly quicker than your average semi or school bus. It went up to 60 with ease. It just took 3x longer to get there than the average econobox. I can live with that just fine but if I can get triple the power and keep the economy (Such as the upcoming subaru diesel) Hellz Ya I'll take it.


Modified by eunos94 at 9:00 AM 3-24-2008

[rs4-380]

Quote, originally posted by BRealistic »

...in your area.

fair enough. Biggest reason the zetec conversion was ruled out when I was looking is because bostig makes it non-diy compatible. you can not buy mounts/adapters seperatley, you must buy everything, including the engine, from them, which makes it much more expensive.

[Diamond Dave]

If you don't like the Zetec, try STi power . There are even plenty of Forresters and legacies ready to give up their EJ25t engines.

No one has said the Zetec is the best engine on the planet. However, it was produced in high numbers across several variations, plentiful in wrecking yards, large aftermarket parts and performance support. it's also a pretty common engine in the Locost crowd.

[MagicBus]

I've actually seen the Zetec Vanagon in person.

I'm a Vanagon owner of five years and we've had them in the family nonstop since 1985, so I'm decently familiar with them. In that time, we lost only one engnie to head gasket failure, and even that was at least partially due to not following the maintenance scheule. IMO - if you keep up on the maintenance, the wasserboxer is pretty reliable, though it does seem to have a shorter lifespan between rebuilds than other engines I've seen.

The stock engine IS underpowered. That, I can't argue. For the most part, I've just adapted my driving style around it. Considering that two of the other cars I've owned in my time have been automatic Mercedes 240D's, I know I have a much higher tolerance for a slow car than most people.

As I said, I've seen the Zetec Vanagon in person. About two years ago, I paid a visit to Jim and Brady over at Bostig Engineering and got to take a ride in a recently completed conversion.

The van in question was, I think, an '86 or '87 with full Westfalia package, so it was heavier than a standard van. I didn't get to drive, but I rode shotgun. My impression was as such (keep in mind this was based on a single ride two years ago):

Power: The Zetec Vanagon definitely whooped the stock wasserboxer. The van, equipped with the Zetec engine in otherwise stock form, accelerated nicely and seemed to cruise with much greater ease than the VW engine.

Noise/vibration: One common, reported concern with using any engine other than the wasserboxer is noticable vibration, especially during acceleration. This is supposedly common with inline engines as opposed to Subaru swaps. The Zetec Vanagon was exceptionally smooth - I'd say as much as the stock Vanagon engine. Also, the engine noise did not intrude into the cabin.

All in all, I was impressed. My stock Vanagon is still running just fine, but long term, I'm keeping the Zetec on the radar as a potential replacement.

Modified by MagicBus at 9:57 PM 3-25-2008

[bostig_engineering]

Hey Guys,

I was sent a heads up about this thread, good attention being paid to various points, let me see if I can't hit a few more from our POV.

Quote, originally posted by rs4-380 »

fair enough. Biggest reason the zetec conversion was ruled out when I was looking is because bostig makes it non-diy compatible.

The main reason we started with turnkeys was two-fold. In order to develop something as potentially complicated as an entire engine conversion which encompasses everything from mechanicals to engine management, to documentation, it is important to not allow to many variants. This is one of the primary problems with the DIY efforts. Despite being around for 12+ years, the subie guys regularly experience the same problems as guys that did conversions years ago. Some of it can be avoided by paying close attention to the info online, but even the best of us are hard pressed to not fall into some of the traps that information gaps provide. This re-discovery and re-learning both burden the DIYer, which is something that most guys(esp guys that are trying to do something like this for the very first time) in retrospect wish they could have avoided.

In any case, by starting our development with a turnkey, we were able to both jumpstart sales because no other such turnkey existed before us, and by the same method, tightly control both development, and monitor the results. Much like software development, or any other engineering, your progress will only be as good as your utilization and control of information, as well as your ability to affect changes quickly and effectively.

We are about to release the V2.0 version of the Bostig Conversion, the entire mounting setup, flywheel, exhaust, harness, cradle etc has all been revised based on what we were able to do with the V1.0 version. Similarly again to software we can also offer an upgrade path to first gen customers, since parts were developed to be backward compatible, and not need to be replaced en mass to upgrade to the new mounting setup etc.

Additionally, since the conversion(and us as a company) have matured to this new level... NOW we are able to offer a DIY kit version of the conversion and really gain advantage on every aspect of the zetec. The guys that said they were unimpressed with the zetec in their focii... well I have to say I don't blame you. But you have to keep in mind that the entire implementation dramatically affects everything from perceived performance up through NVH and drivability. Drive a zetec in a caterham, a formula ford car, or indeed one of our conversions and see what you think.. it's a different ballgame. If you look at the reliability indices for the focus, the engine is the best part of the car hands down. It was one of ford's first world engine programs and they produced some 3.5 million of them.. which is more than the sum total of all FHI/subaru engine production from 1990 to 2005 across all engine families and displacements. Now production numbers alone aren't an indicator of a good program or product, but the engines are exceptional. Truly exceptional, both in their simplicity, but also in their design and manufacture.

Ford dumped the zetec in 2004-2005 in favor of the Mazda AJ based duratec.. Cheaper to produce, and less durable, which helps in hitting their warranty marks. Keep in mind that just as sewing machine makers in the early 20th century figured out quickly, you need to design them to both last long enough... but not too long.. or you hurt yourself in sales.

Of 40+ turnkeys we've shipped, the average price paid for an engine is $450 shipped to our door, and not one of those engines exceeded 10k miles. This could not have been achieved using any other powerplant that will fit in a vanagon.

Basing the conversion around an engine with such massive economies of scale in both the parts infrastructure, the aftermarket, and salvage markets, it is a very low risk proposition to drive and maintain a zetec converted van. Worst case scenario is an engine failure out of warranty, which for one of our conversions is several hundred dollars for another low mileage engine, vs a couple thousand for a high mileage anything else. The lowest cost engine we bought was $160 shipped to us from a yard about an hour away, with 8k miles. It boggles my mind to think it was even worth their time to pull it and drive it to me, but I won't argue.

It's been quite interesting developing the conversion. At first, when I first got involved, it was clear that most of the attention was paid to engine selection alone. Comparing the good/bad points of the engines usually sparked semi-religious flame wars in VW and vanagon forums far and wide... it seemed apparent though that this was not the only part of the picture. You need good engine mechanicals AND good engine management. Your only as strong as your weakest link... and this was always a very weak link in vanagons. It was also a weak link in all of the other conversion available when I first started looking at it. So we decided to address this aspect with just as much intensity as engine choice and support itself. That's why we're still the only conversion that uses brand spanking new wiring harnesses. In fact, for the 2.0 we've now increased our capabilities to instead of buying new harnesses from Ford(since they are a fraction of the cost of a new subie harness) and stripping down and re-looming, we can build the zetec harnesses from scratch, to any custom configuration we want, with all new pins, backshells, wire, routing. We designed and build them specifically for this application, again, something that no other provider is capable of(I'll brag about that one because just the time in FINDING the right contacts to try and twist the arms of people when you are dealing in such small quantities to make it possible is dangerous to your mental health)

The fact that we also custom tune the ECU to match our hardware and application is an important distinction. This is what enables us to run any octane, have both superchargers and turbochargers as bolt on options, and run e85, and we are talking with a few people in South america that want to be able to run CNG instead of gaslline. As we develop and improve the tunes, they can be emailed, downloaded, and then reflashed via the handheld unit which also doubles as a code reader and USB interface for realtime digital dash and logging functionality. Again, the reason we are capable of doing this stems from the choice of engine, and decision to pay attention to engine management. The 2.0 will have the option of a standalone on dash tool from Auterra to display engine metrics, trip computer functionatily, and has a GPS antenna input to log both against GPS location. The playback software uses to Google earth API to playback vehicle location while you see what the ECU was doing at the time... it's the first step to my dream of aftermarket vehicle prognostics for our customers.

The most recent development which lead to the DIY or Bostig Core conversion, is the realization that it didnt stop with engine mechanicals and engine management. The information provided and known by the operator is just as important. And this is where we can again distance ourselves from the other options. Video based assembly and instructional videos make the build really easy(a pic is worth 1000 words, NTSC video is 29.97 fps, which makes a DVD what.. a sh*tton of words ha) Also people like to pop in a DVD and learn something passively.. and the video makes it both easier for us to produce, and is really the perfect medium for transmission of complete information of such things.

Then there's the price. Since we've gotten so much better at both development and everything else in our business as we always try to improve ourselves as our products, the DIY kit price is looking to be right around $4k, which means if you are a DIYer, you can have it into your van for under $5k. Add the stage 1 turbo to that for around $2400 and you have a maintainable, 90% brand new for your dollar, reliable torque monster that gets 20mpg if you let grandma drive it. BTW we have an EJ22 with adapter plate, cradle, flywheel, primary exhaust, and DIY harness(worthless, it's a mess) that we pulled during a re-conversion. Someone can have for $300 if they want it. For $300, that might be a good reason to do the subie. We make the same power/torque with our power tune as the subie EJ22 does, and the reason we know this is we're still the only ones that ever bothered to double check ourselves and use a chassis dyno before selling anything to anyone... but if factory crank numbers as installed in something else float your boat, so be it

Thanks for reading,

Jim Akiba

Bostig Engineering

Modified by bostig_engineering at 8:21 PM 3-25-2008

Modified by bostig_engineering at 8:24 PM 3-25-2008


Modified by bostig_engineering at 8:25 PM 3-25-2008

[rs4-380]

Quote, originally posted by bostig_engineering »

The main reason we started with turnkeys was two-fold. Since we've gotten so much better at both development and everything else in our business as we always try to improve ourselves as our products, the DIY kit price is looking to be right around $4k, which means if you are a DIYer, you can have it into your van for under $5k.

I think you guys do offer a great service, as the majority of vanagon engine conversion customers do opt for the turnkey or shop-installed route.

Again, when I decided to convert, the zetec was out of the question because there was no DIY kit. Even at 4k for the kit, it would still be out of the question for me. I realize that I am not in the majority, and I may be more comfortable doing engine swaps then other vanagon owners, but my ej25 swap cost me between 2500 and 3000 including the engine, more then I planned on spending, but still pretty good for 165hp. In addition, while again I may be in the minority, I much prefer my self-made harness over something that was assembled by someone else. From a DIY perspective, it's much easier to troubleshoot any future issues because I built the damn thing.

[BRealistic]

Quote, originally posted by rs4-380 »

In addition, while again I may be in the minority, I much prefer my self-made harness over something that was assembled by someone else. .

Wow. That's literally the first time I have ever heard anybody say they would rather make their own hardness over using a premade kit.

[bostig_engineering]

Yeah but the important thing is WHY he prefers his harness. Since he built it, he knows it well. Which is exactly what I mean when it comes to the operator having the right information. Plus I see his point about the confidence of making it himself because even folks that sell themselves as specialists often sell junk in reality.

The wiring harnesses we make exceed what folks are used to, even from the factory(there will be pics of the new 2.0 stuff on our site in the next week or two) so the chances that one can actually build a harness as well as the ones produced by my man Kyle are very slim(not to say anything about your work having never seen it) mostly just because of the fact that you are doing a one off, and the materials used would exceed much of the cost of your whole conversion budget to buy for a single harness.. and the harness is a salvaged harness not new.. but aside from that, there is also pinout info, and wiring diagrams for troubleshooting, so you needn't have made it, nor remember what you did down the road for it to be easy to troubleshoot. The wire count for the zetec is also a half to a third of the wire count of even the ej22 let alone the 25. There are only 27 wires in the main harness, which I believe makes it the lowest of any current conversion including the diesels(go figure). So with all these combined factors, even someone that doesn't make their own can either maintain their own, or have the option of someone else doing it at a shop.

$2500-$3000 is a great number, but even aside from errors in general accounting like considering gas to run to the hardware store etc, the vast majority of people, will never be able to do it for so little, and certainly not in 4-5 days. How long have you had it up and running? Where are you located? We provide free dyno runs if you're ever in this neck of the woods, it would be good since we've never had anyone with a 2.5 actually step to the plate to see what they are putting down.

Once we break it out and get the 2.0 parts moving in the Core kits, it would be possible to buy just the parts that one would want from us, just as you did for your conversion, so a $1600 conversion would be possible for really mechanically inclined guys like yourself. Granted not with the power of the 2.5L, but with the turbo kit figured in too it doesn't put it much past where you were... but I won't count the chickens yet, the eggs are just hatching now and we still have to make sure nobody falls out of the basket or was soft boiled to begin with ha

Jim

[InfraRedline]

I the internet

[rs4-380]

Quote, originally posted by bostig_engineering »

How long have you had it up and running? Where are you located? We provide free dyno runs if you're ever in this neck of the woods, it would be good since we've never had anyone with a 2.5 actually step to the plate to see what they are putting down.

I'm in Maine, so i'd love to take you up on the offer at some point for my own curiosity (it is a syncro though, so it would need to be an awd dyno). I've had it running for a little over a year and have been very pleased with it.

And just to clarify, I'm not trying to turn this into a which is better brawl, we are both obviously biased, I made the decision I did for my own reasons, and in sharing those, I try to emphasize that they were MY reasons. I realize that the vast majority of people don't actually enjoy wiring like I do, may not have the experience or confidence, and/or the connections (although the only thing I farmed out was the welding of the oil pan and the coolant manifold (cut/mocked them both myself)). But I feel that people need to realize the possibilities that do exist.

That being said, there are no more wires in my vintage ej25 (2001) then the same vintage ej22, likewise, after simplification (which was the main goal of my own harness) the total number from the ecu to the harness is less then you think, and including the ecu ground, you count the van-engine interface points on one hand.

[bostig_engineering]

Quote, originally posted by rs4-380 »

And just to clarify, I'm not trying to turn this into a which is better brawl, we are both obviously biased, I made the decision I did for my own reasons, and in sharing those, I try to emphasize that they were MY reasons.[...] But I feel that people need to realize the possibilities that do exist. That being said, there are no more wires in my vintage ej25 (2001) then the same vintage ej22, likewise, after simplification (which was the main goal of my own harness) the total number from the ecu to the harness is less then you think, and including the ecu ground, you count the van-engine interface points on one hand.

I try to be careful to make sure I'm not presenting an argument as to which is better. That evaluation is wholly subjective, not mine to make, but I do want to make sure that all of the imperative facts regarding the points of comparison are accurate so that others can determine which they think is better based on good information. All too often people rely on hearsay and speculation in various forms on the intarweb from people that know more than they do, the only trouble is those people aren't always right and neither is the information. There is a cult of matching politics and misunderstandings that drive much of the decision making in this little niche market, for instance the folks that are brand loyalists, when the original flavor and meanings of those brands went extinct long ago. Likewise comparing Apples to Oranges is also perfectly acceptable to those that are only looking at them as "fruit" and look no deeper. This is what I'm trying to prevent, and I do so by presenting all the relavent bits of information that one "should" know before ever making a decision like which is better for me.

Man, definitely come down... the dyno we use is 2wd, but it only takes 20mins to pull the driveshaft, which we can help you with down here and you're all set. It's important to use the exact same dyno, and preferably under the same conditions(even though the dyno compensates), to keep the relative accuracy extremely high. If we sent you to a dyno elsewhere, even if it was the exact same make/model dyno, the numbers would not be strictly comparable to the database of pulls we have all on the exact same machine.

So what was the actual wire count you were able to get it down to(the total number from the ecu to the harness)?

Jim

Modified by bostig_engineering at 7:04 AM 3-27-2008

[Chapel]

Van War 2008

I wanna see this.

[moburki]

bostig_engineering

You guys built my buddy's Vanagon (FI Zetec). He lives in Indy
Here's the link, I think (can't check, I'm working)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...42k -

Very cool, nice work!

[bostig_engineering]

You're friends with Dave! Dude we love dave! His van in black with the custom interior is sweet...

Here's a video of his van right before the conversion to the supercharged setup:

http://www.bostig.com/files/upinsmoke.wmv

Jim

[moburki]

Ol' Dave is my bro from waaaaay back! Can't wait to get a ride in the Vanagon, looks like a lot of fun! Just visited with him and our buddies for a wedding. We're all motorhead toy freaks, just like we were kids. Its great!

[Egz]

Quote, originally posted by Chapel »

they do, they're great little motors.

I'm a little late to this thread, but I've gone from a Zetec to a Duratec, and I never looked back.

But for its purpose on a Vanagon, it will do fine.

[Chapel]

Quote, originally posted by Egz »

I'm a little late to this thread, but I've gone from a Zetec to a Duratec, and I never looked back. But for its purpose on a Vanagon, it will do fine.

actually, let me ask you this: what is the difference between the Zetec 2.0 16v and the Duratec20?

for some reason I always thought it was just a name change but now I just found out it's a rebadged Mazda MZR motor... and now I feel silly. Apparently the SOHC Duratec 8v is a rebadged Kent motor though.

[bostig_engineering]

Of the differences, the biggest is that the Duratec(Mazda as you point out) are an aluminum block(vs zetec iron block, AL sub-crankcase), and the internals aren't quite as beefy. It's easier/safer to push the zetec to higher power levels than a duratec which is one of the reasons the RS turbo were badged with the name duratec but in reality were still turbo'd zetecs, not duratecs. The duratec will eventually eclipse the zetec I think if for no other reason than production numbers, but not for another few years yet, as they still aren't available to play with as easily... too new.

The packaging is also different, the duratec being bigger all around. One of the criticisms of the zetec was it's packaging oriented design.. so valves can't be huge etc.. but it's a great trade off, especially when you slap a turbo on it. The bellhousing pattern is different, the intake/exhaust swap sides. The duratec are great if you plan to leave them alone, they have the NVH uphand and are great engines... but if you want to make power from a tiny engine, I think the zetec is a better choice. The stock 2.3 would be great power wise in a vanagon if it fit well. A dry sump would almost certainly be needed. To make it fit though.

Jim

[Chapel]

off topic question... but did you guys do the Port and Polish on the head for my engine back in like 2004?

It was a German head for a crossflow ABA motor.

It was back when my friend Pat owned the car/motor.

[BRealistic]

Quote, originally posted by Chapel »

It was back when my friend Pat owned the car/motor.

You know Pat?

[bostig_engineering]

Yeah very likely, we did some 8v heads as well as GTP and 3S heads... that looks like a light chamber and port polish, maybe it was gasket matched too. The flowbench sits lonely in the corner now that we're fulltime doing the vanagon engine conversions.

Jim

[Chapel]

you guys still do it though?
there's a few guys locally that are looking to have it done

[rs4-380]

Quote, originally posted by bostig_engineering »

So what was the actual wire count you were able to get it down to(the total number from the ecu to the harness)?

I'm not sure exactly how you are defining ecu to harness, so here's all of them.

there are 2 main plugs on the intake manifold that go to the ecu, there are 29 pins used between those two plugs. All the engine electrical components (coil, injectors, idle air controller, map sensor, throttle position sensor, evap purge solenoid, etc) and the fuel rail are all mounted to the intake and as such, you can unplug these two plugs, unbolt the manifold, and lit everything off the long block in one piece.

In addition, there are 3 wires from the ecu to the 02 sensor (i'm only using a front sensor), 2 for the fuel pump and 3 for the vehicle speed sensor, these wires do not necessarily terminate at an ecu plug though (ie the grounds are spliced into other grounds). The ecu also requires a constant and switched +12v as well as a cranking signal. The tach signal for the instrument cluster is supplied from the ecu, and the stock vanagon temp gauge wire and sensor is retained (sender installed in coolant manifold).

The interface points between the van and the engine are limited to ground, constant 12v, switched 12v, alternator output and the cranking signal. The ignition and fuel pump relays, and the four fuses (ecu, fuel pump, 02, etc) are all contained with the ecu under the rear bench in the stock location. Nothing engine related hits the vanagon fuse panel (as with most other swaps in these vans).

[bostig_engineering]

So it sounds like there are only 35 for then engine management itself(keeping the van interface/fuel pump separate) yeah that's pretty stripped down. What year ej25 is it?

Thanks,

Jim

[rs4-380]

2001.

Like I said, an ej22 should be pretty much the same.

[bostig_engineering]

The one we have here certainly isn't, but you're right, it should be close to the same. How many miles are on yours?

Jim

[rs4-380]

sorry, should clarify that an ej22 of the same vintage.

I have about 4000 miles on it.