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    Thread: How to change your cam follower inside. (Now with debate about failures and their cause.)

    1. 03-24-2008 07:54 PM #101
      Quote, originally posted by magilson »
      No. That's why it was sarcasm. Go back, read the patent, then we can start a meaningful conversation. In the mean time I would take "deformation" wear over "jack hammer" wear anyday. Fair enough?

      As i already explained to you, PIVOTING of the cam follower is an expected occurrence,taking into consideration both parts (cam follower/piston+spring holder) aren't FIXED to each other.If you take the pump with the follower on it into your hands, you can PIVOT all you want...
      So again....what does that have to do with all the above, and how the follower might be getting...DEFORMED ???

    2. Member magilson's Avatar
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      03-24-2008 07:57 PM #102
      Quote, originally posted by GolfRS »
      So again....what does that have to do with all the above, and how the follower might be getting...DEFORMED ???

      You tell me how it's getting deformed. It's your theory!
      champagne wishes. caviar dreams.

    3. 03-24-2008 08:02 PM #103
      Quote, originally posted by magilson »
      You tell me how it's getting deformed. It's your theory!

      Why don't you state in public what you tell me on your p.m's ?
      That actually PIVOTING of a piston tip with next to no clearance is making the contact area larger ???
      I mean seriously man.......FFS....

    4. 03-24-2008 08:03 PM #104
      just my .02 but the relation seems to be that the deformation is occuring at the point of pivot. The APR pump having the wider piston with the same contact area and then tapering off causing possible "cupping" on the follower. Where as the other pump pictured not having the tapered edge is "punching" into the follower, giving it a more definate point of pivot, yet possibly wearing through faster...

    5. 03-24-2008 08:04 PM #105
      Not sure if any of this information can help at all, but here is patent information related to our pump:
      http://www.arinahnell.com/othe...t.pdf
      http://www.arinahnell.com/othe...2.pdf
      http://www.arinahnell.com/othe...3.pdf
      http://www.arinahnell.com/othe...4.pdf
      They are fairly difficult to read but have some interesting information.

    6. 03-24-2008 08:09 PM #106
      Quote, originally posted by shortydub »
      just my .02 but the relation seems to be that the deformation is occuring at the point of pivot. The APR pump having the wider piston with the same contact area and then tapering off causing possible "cupping" on the follower. Where as the other pump pictured not having the tapered edge is "punching" into the follower, giving it a more definate point of pivot, yet possibly wearing through faster...

      What you also fail to understand, is that if the follower is rigid and both pump pistons have the same contact area (green area in my pics), then NO pivoting can make it larger.
      Again, PIVOTING is a circular motion around an axis (the piston in our case) and if there is no SIDE MOTION allowed (which is the RULE for this pump to function properly), it ALWAYS should leave the same radius footprint...

    7. Member magilson's Avatar
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      03-24-2008 08:10 PM #107
      Quote, originally posted by Arin »
      Not sure if any of this information can help at all, but here is patent information related to our pump:

      It can't help at all. There is no help for any of us. It's deformation and we're all going to die.
      champagne wishes. caviar dreams.

    8. 03-24-2008 08:12 PM #108
      Quote, originally posted by magilson »
      It can't help at all. There is no help for any of us. It's deformation and we're all going to die.

      Or maybe its PIVOTING going wild inside the cam follower !!!
      Now that would be a disaster...no ??

    9. Member magilson's Avatar
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      03-24-2008 08:12 PM #109
      Quote, originally posted by GolfRS »
      Again, PIVOTING is a circular motion around an axis (the piston in our case) and if there is no SIDE MOTION allowed (which is the RULE for this pump to function properly), it ALWAYS should leave the same radius footprint...

      READ THE FREAKING PATENT! Side motion is accounted for given the shape of the end piston shaft! It's not the piston that is pivoting! I don't know how many ways I can say this! It's the follower pivoting against the pump shaft!
      champagne wishes. caviar dreams.

    10. 03-24-2008 08:17 PM #110
      Quote, originally posted by magilson »
      READ THE FREAKING PATENT! Side motion is accounted for given the shape of the end piston shaft! It's not the piston that is pivoting! I don't know how many ways I can say this! It's the follower pivoting against the pump shaft!

      Man...you are all confused.Maybe you are reading too many patents....
      Of course the follower is pivoting.It is free to move, as i've already explained to you.
      What you seem to keep ignoring though, is that there SHOULDN'T be ANY side motion happening, as that would seriously damage the pump, which needs to be moving in a constant vertical direction.
      What exactly aren't you getting ???? FFS !!!

    11. 03-24-2008 08:27 PM #111
      GolfRS, we may have a language barrier.
      Pivot can mean to spin around in a circle on a single point, as you are stating it. I mean rocking back and forth on a point or fulcrum. A seesaw pivots on a fulcrum.

    12. 03-24-2008 08:32 PM #112
      Quote, originally posted by Arin »
      GolfRS, we may have a language barrier.
      Pivot can mean to spin around in a circle on a single point, as you are stating it. I mean rocking back and forth on a point or fulcrum. A seesaw pivots on a fulcrum.

      Really ??Oh ok....
      So what kind of movement would that explain when referring to the
      pump again??

    13. 03-24-2008 08:33 PM #113
      Quote, originally posted by Arin »
      GolfRS, we may have a language barrier.
      Pivot can mean to spin around in a circle on a single point, as you are stating it. I mean rocking back and forth on a point or fulcrum. A seesaw pivots on a fulcrum.

      I was referring to it pivoting on a fulcrum, acting like a english wheel that is used in body shops. could this be possible?

    14. 03-24-2008 08:37 PM #114
      OMG we will die!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!
      Wil I give my car to my poor widow wife or should I ask to be buried in my car to prevent a cataclysm

    15. Global Moderator iThread's Avatar
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      03-24-2008 08:41 PM #115

    16. 03-24-2008 08:44 PM #116
      Quote, originally posted by shortydub »
      I was referring to it pivoting on a fulcrum, acting like a english wheel that is used in body shops. could this be possible?

      Well i have no clue how that is, but the way i see it, the only 2 movements
      that should be "allowed" in the pump in order for it to have the most endured stress on
      the piston (vertically) is,
      1)the up and down movement of the piston (completely vertically), and
      2)the rotation, pivoting, dancing round itself (or whatever you wanna call it) of the follower, which is to be expected, since it not attached to anything and its free to move (up down+pivot around the piston axis).
      ANY other movement could put more stress on the piston, causing it to break, with all the known consequences.

    17. Member magilson's Avatar
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      03-24-2008 08:45 PM #117
      Quote, originally posted by GolfRS »
      2)the rotation, pivoting, dancing round itself (or whatever you wanna call it) of the follower, which is to be expected, since it not attached to anything and its free to move (up down+pivot around the piston axis).

      [IMG]http://**********************/smile/emthup.gif[/IMG]
      champagne wishes. caviar dreams.

    18. Member rbradleymedmd's Avatar
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      03-24-2008 08:51 PM #118
      Out of curiosity...why (if possible, most likely not) don't we find a way to make the follower and piston all one sturdy piece? Would this not alleviate all these problems? Or would this lead to issues with the cam lobe then?
      Chapter 11 Dubs

      Quote Originally Posted by Joel@Eurojet
      Dazzle them with brilliance, don't baffle them with Bull****.

    19. 03-24-2008 08:53 PM #119
      Quote, originally posted by GolfRS »
      Well i have no clue how that is

      Power hammer:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...lated
      English wheel:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APmSjzBvYd0
      I think the contact area of the piston and the camshaft is acting like a mix of these two on our cam followers....

    20. 03-24-2008 09:00 PM #120
      Quote, originally posted by shortydub »
      I think the contact area of the piston and the camshaft is acting like a mix of these two on our cam followers....

      Its a good analogy, since the forces on the follower are
      1)impact from the piston/tip (its just now starting to show that maybe increased rpm for prolonged periods might actually cause disruption of the piston follower contact, acting like a hammer on return)
      2)frictional/rotational forces in the inside as the follower pivots around the piston axis.
      3)"normal" friction/wear form the contact of the follower with the camshaft on the outside.

    21. Member TypeR #126's Avatar
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      03-25-2008 02:03 PM #121
      There does seem to be some confusion around terms and definitions. Here is a crude drawing that represents the type of pivoting I was referring to.

      Here the cam follower is pivoting within the vertical plane of it's bore as the came lobe sweeps through it's arc, with the pump plunger acting as the pivot point. I've over simplified and exaggerated for effect.

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      03-25-2008 03:51 PM #122
      Just ordered myself a follower. I know how the stock looked before I installed my APR pump...so I have a good basis for comparison. If it doesn't look right after 5k...we'll see. I have a feeling its fine.

    23. 03-25-2008 04:08 PM #123
      Quote, originally posted by TypeR #126 »
      There does seem to be some confusion around terms and definitions. Here is a crude drawing that represents the type of pivoting I was referring to.

      Here the cam follower is pivoting within the vertical plane of it's bore as the came lobe sweeps through it's arc, with the pump plunger acting as the pivot point. I've over simplified and exaggerated for effect.

      Thank you for this image. This is what I tried to describe long ago.

    24. 03-25-2008 05:55 PM #124
      Quote, originally posted by TypeR #126 »
      There does seem to be some confusion around terms and definitions. Here is a crude drawing that represents the type of pivoting I was referring to.

      Here the cam follower is pivoting within the vertical plane of it's bore as the came lobe sweeps through it's arc, with the pump plunger acting as the pivot point. I've over simplified and exaggerated for effect.

      Right..Now this is the thing i was also trying to explain SHOULDN'T be happening.
      To begin with, the follower can't move in the direction you have positioned it, simply because its movement is directed by the the hole in which it moves, which is only up and down.Also, if you pic was the case, you would also find wear marks on the lips of the follower, and that just isn't the case....
      Second, IF it were to move like that, the force acting upon the piston would not be a vertical one, and since the piston CAN'T move sideways, the whole of the force would be translated to stress.
      The above are just a few of what would be happening if your drawing was actually what is happening.I'm pretty sure i can think of some more...

    25. 03-25-2008 06:37 PM #125
      Totally agree with GolfRS to the above
      The main reason of cam premature wear except the extra force it takes from aftermarket hpfp's is the driving style. Especially when raping the car all the time by changing gears to redline


      Modified by csih at 3:40 PM 3-25-2008

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