How to change your cam follower inside. (Now with debate about failures and their cause.)

[GolfRS]

Quote, originally posted by NoRegrets78 »

I have to agree with csih...you really need to prevent the issue from the start before it bites you in the rear. GolfRS: What do you mean we'll see pretty soon?

I mean.... when i check it ??

[NoRegrets78]

Ah ok, sorry, my mistake.

[csih]

I dont know if cryogenics to this part could help a bit

[GolfRS]

Quote, originally posted by csih »

I dont know if cryogenics to this part could help a bit

You can try and let us know.

[blackvento36]

Quote, originally posted by csih »

I dont know if cryogenics to this part could help a bit

Actually it probably could. From what I know about cryogenic treatment (which isn't much) is that it improves a metal's ability to resist wear without actually hardening it much. The last thing you wanna do is make the follower much harder. Could work but for what it probably costs I doubt any single person would wanna bother.

I've always supported Autotech's stuff but I wouldn't bother doing anything to the follower if running their pump. The concave surface of their plunger tip would eat through a follower sooner or later regardless.

I think in a perfect world one of these companies would redesign the plunger shaft slightly shorter and the follower slightly thicker. That way the the bottom of the follower wouldn't deform and allow the plunger to play and wear the follower.

[chris@revotechnik]

Quote, originally posted by blackvento36 »

I've always supported Autotech's stuff but I wouldn't bother doing anything to the follower if running their pump. The concave surface of their plunger tip would eat through a follower sooner or later regardless.

Again blanket statements without looking at all the facts.

JCs autotech pump is only one of many that I have seen/ been sent pictures of that appears the way it does. Every other follower has had 100% identical wear both inside and out regardless of brand.

[magilson]

Quote, originally posted by chris@revotechnik »

Again blanket statements without looking at all the facts. JCs autotech pump is only one of many that I have seen/ been sent pictures of that appears the way it does. Every other follower has had 100% identical wear both inside and out regardless of brand.

Post them up!

[goin2fast]

What is involved in cryogenic treatment. I have access to LN2 and have two cam followers on the way.

[chris@revotechnik]

Quote, originally posted by magilson »

Post them up!

I'll see what I can, have to realize anything that comes through my email is covered by my NDA.

Most will be the outside surface which will be obviously concave with all brands of pumps.

Unfortunately this thread like most on the topic has turned into more I heart brand X then actual facts. Might as well argue honda vs VW at this point in the thread.. it will be just as productive.

[NoRegrets78]

If you're going to make statements that all pumps regardless of brands will wear the same on the follower, you really need to post up evidence.

The only pics we've seen clearly show two different wear patterns between the AT/KMD style and the OEM/APR style.

[chris@revotechnik]

Quote, originally posted by NoRegrets78 »

The only pics we've seen clearly show two different wear patterns between the AT/KMD style and the OEM/APR style.

I actually haven't seen a single picture that shows that, I've seen plenty of people post and bicker about what they want to be an issue because they like brand X or Y but nothing that is the real problem.

I have seen pictures showing an imprint on the back that may or may not be different but I have not seen anyone post a single picture showing the actual wear.

But we can just keep making circles.. but they are a lot more fun in a car or a dirtbike or crop circles even.. doing them on forums gets a little boring.

[NoRegrets78]

Are you serious?

Look at arin's pic, and look at JC's.

JC's shows a very clear cut in circle while arins is more of an indentation. Am I missing something here?

Maybe its the way the pics were taken? The lighting?


Modified by NoRegrets78 at 10:08 AM 3-26-2008

[2zzge]

NR78 - its the same wear man.
we're waisting time arguing over this. it would be more productive to bicker over a solution, than it would be to defend a part that is obviously broken.

[NoRegrets78]

Must be the lighting then.

I'm sorry I just haven't seen any in person, and like a lot here am relying on info posted by others. To me the pics look different...but it may just be an illusion. I apologize for my noobness. I'm still trying to grasp this whole concept and figure out what the hell is going on.

[chris@revotechnik]

Quote, originally posted by NoRegrets78 »

Are you serious? Look at arin's pic, and look at JC's. JC's shows a very clear cut in circle while arins is more of an indentation. Am I missing something here?

Yes I am 100% serious because you guys are arguing over something that is NOT THE PROBLEM!!

none of these are wearing or failing from the back.

It doesn't matter what that indent looks like on the back the only thing that matters if the face.

Notice anyone stuck on the back side is never showing the face of their follower after 6-10K miles with an aftermarket pump.

Now lets look at the back side for a minute though since it DOES show the fail point.

You see that ring that is obvious between the 4 oil holes? slight to the inside of them.

That is the fail point if its let to go too long so that it wears thin enough to crack.

Every single failure so far that I have seen has cracked at that line. Connecting the dots between the holes.

Every single failure I have seen so far regardless of pump has been concave, worn, and broken in an identical matter.

You want proof from me about what I am saying, I have yet to see one shred of evidence that the tip style and wear pattern from the backside has caused a failure. When someone can even come up with an instance where if failed because of that let me know. How many of the people in this discussion have even seen a truely warn follower first hand? How many people in this discussion have had a failure and are not being honest about it would be the better question

[2zzge]

i think that if anything, its just phases of the same "break" process.
its a somewhat protracted "break", where phases of wear are being detected until -if left alone- it would go catastrophic on us (or actually has on some). i think we'll be better off if we think of the whole process as "the break".

just as with many other VW parts on this car, they are "just barely" adequate for stock usage....however, once we "go mod" we take great risk in exacerbating an already "iffy" situation.

don't let anyone convince you that any company is the cause of this. you won't be doing yourself any favors if you do. you'd just be closing your eyes to a "break in progress"

[jc@douglas]

just to clear this up, chris is right, every failure besides mine has the top punched in from the cam side and you see stress cracks connecting the 4 holes, as for mine..mine was about to punch straight threw the center with no wear marks anywhere else on the follower except the exact spot on the opposite side
i am hosting pics now of a failure with an APR pump and it is the same style failure as the OEM and every other brand pump

[2zzge]

that would be helpful jc, thanks!

[jc@douglas]

sorry the only camera i have available to me at work sucks ass but you can see the cracks connecting the 4 holes

[GolfRS]

Quote, originally posted by jc@douglas »

you can see the cracks connecting the 4 holes

Emmmm....not really...

Pic quality is too bad to see it.

[jc@douglas]

Quote, originally posted by GolfRS »

Emmmm....not really... Pic quality is too bad to see it.

i know the pics suck but how can you honestly not see the lines connecting the holes
i will try to remember my other camera tomorrow

[NoRegrets78]

I apologize...I think I understand now. It's hard enough to weed through all the propaganda and misinformation without getting caught up in it all.

Now that it's pretty much agreed this is a problem across the board...lets get this thread back to figuring out a permanent solution other than going back to stock fuel pumps.

[rracerguy717]

Quote, originally posted by jc@douglas »

every failure besides mine has the top punched in from the cam side and you see stress cracks connecting the 4 holes, as for mine..mine was about to punch straight threw the center with no wear marks anywhere else on the follower except the exact spot on the opposite side

That sounds like a possible failure's from the follower floating on the cam surface and just hammering its way through?? .

just my 2 cents Bob.G

[jc@douglas]

Quote, originally posted by rracerguy717 »

That sounds like a possible failure's from the follower floating on the cam surface and just hammering its way through?? . just my 2 cents Bob.G

it's possible but thats something i am going to have to deal with as i am rev'ing my car higher than anyone else here, chris rev's his car just as high if not higher but has yet to have the same problem that i did so thats a 50/50 chance..autotech seems to feel it might be the pump its self and is getting me a new pump out to try..it could be alot of different things on my car seeing i am doing things a little different then everyone else
and might i add i don't feel rpm is the problem but i can't eliminate it as a possibitiy until i can prove that it's not the problem


Modified by jc@douglas at 8:31 AM 3-26-2008

[blackvento36]

Quote, originally posted by NoRegrets78 »

Are you serious? Look at arin's pic, and look at JC's. JC's shows a very clear cut in circle while arins is more of an indentation. Am I missing something here?

Actually, that's my pic and that was the stock fuel pump.

Quote, originally posted by chris@revotechnik »

Again blanket statements without looking at all the facts. JCs autotech pump is only one of many that I have seen/ been sent pictures of that appears the way it does. Every other follower has had 100% identical wear both inside and out regardless of brand.

How did you figure that was a "blanket statement"?

Spongebob sent me this pic which I posted on the other page

And this is JC's pic we are obviously familiar with

One picture shows a concave plunger tip, and another shows a convex depression punched into the follower by the same company's fuel pump. That must be a coincidence tho right?

talking about photo's that you have "been sent" does no one any good if we don't see them and can't verify what the setup was.

All I know is...............

the wear on my follower

doesn't look like JC's follower

which doesn't look like Arin's follower

So what the hell are you talking about?

[blackvento36]

Quote, originally posted by jc@douglas »

just to clear this up, chris is right, every failure besides mine has the top punched in from the cam side and you see stress cracks connecting the 4 holes, as for mine..mine was about to punch straight threw the center with no wear marks anywhere else on the follower except the exact spot on the opposite side i am hosting pics now of a failure with an APR pump and it is the same style failure as the OEM and every other brand pump

stress cracking the follower is one thing, Chris was talking about "wear" which in your case especially, looks alot more pronounced with the Autotech pump. He specifically said every one he has seen looked like your AT follower.


Modified by blackvento36 at 11:54 AM 3-26-2008

[jc@douglas]

Quote, originally posted by blackvento36 »

stress cracking the follower is one thing, Chris was talking about "wear" which in your case especially, looks alot more pronounced with the Autotech pump. He specifically said every one he has seen looked like your AT follower. Modified by blackvento36 at 11:54 AM 3-26-2008

he is not talking about the fuel pump side of the follower he is talking about the cam side i believe

[chris@revotechnik]

Quote »

One picture shows a concave plunger tip, and another shows a convex depression punched into the follower by the same company's fuel pump. That must be a coincidence tho right?

Show me where the tip has caused a failure and you'll have a point.

Look at the pictures JC just posted.. THAT is a failure, had that kept going it would have cracked between the holes and the center fallen out.

The pictures of jcs follower and tip are rare and so far the ONLY one that looks as if it does. Possibly related to high revs and floating. However I am probably the only other one who is reving as high as his has and mine wore/failed just like the one he just posted, not like his.

Quote »

talking about photo's that you have "been sent" does no one any good if we don't see them and can't verify what the setup was.

Its just as good if not better then discussing a non issue. Doesn't matter if someone posts pictures or not if the pictures are not of the real problem. Its about as valuable as posting pictures of your front lawn if its not related to the problem.

JC just posted a picture of an apr pumps wear.. THAT IS THE PROBLEM.. not the back.

I just cropped and need to upload a picture showing identical wear on the face of the follower.. you know the part where it wears and fails. As soon as I get them up I'll post it. You'll see that despite the internets theory on this style tip pushing OUT its in fact concave and showing the exact same line on the front face as the one JC just posted.

Or we can just keep theorizing based on brand loyalty, which really seems like the best way to get to a solution.

[chris@revotechnik]

Quote, originally posted by blackvento36 »

stress cracking the follower is one thing, Chris was talking about "wear" which in your case especially, looks alot more pronounced with the Autotech pump. He specifically said every one he has seen looked like your AT follower.

No its not one thing.. its the whole issue. Again this is why people need to get off the tip.

The followers are being worn in a matter they are thinning out and being pushed inwards. This thinning and stretching weakens the follower which then causes stress cracks. Eventually the entire center of the follower will fall out once its worn/stretched/cracked causing the tip of the pump to ride directly on the cam.

I'm not sure what you mean by all the ones I have seen look like his as I've made it clear I have never seen one like his other then his.

I agree that the way it leaves a mark on the inside is different then the stock or apr. I don't agree or believe in anyway that its part of the overall problem.

I do believe in his specific case that it potentially was an issue. But he also has little mileage on his, had it stayed in his wear on the face may have ended up just like the rest. Point is like him everyone should be checking and replacing their followers when they see wear, regardless of brand of your pump. We can ignore this and have failures or we can play it safe..

Its like a hooker with no condom

Vs

your GF with one

Which one is being just plain stupid and which one is playing it extra safe?

[blackvento36]

Quote, originally posted by chris@revotechnik »

Show me where the tip has caused a failure and you'll have a point.

Well lets ask JC

Hey JC, do you consider that follower used with your Autotech pump to be a "failure"? If not, why did you change it? Would you be comfortable running that for a while longer knowing that pretty god damn soon you would be replacing your intake cam rather than a $53, 30-minute-to-replace part.

Honestly Chris that is the most boneheaded thing I've heard on here in a while. You know better than that. The pressure was focused on such a specific part that it's damn near as pronounced on the backside as the front! Out of all the follower pics posted in this thread, that's the only one that looks like that.

Quote, originally posted by chris@revotechnik »

Or we can just keep theorizing based on brand loyalty, which really seems like the best way to get to a solution.

Are you serious? I've almost made it a career on this forum to bash APR. Every fuel pump thread I've posted in has me backing up Autotech's, but unless I ignore the obvious flaw which only you can't seem to see, I can't continue with that. I like Autotech too, but you almost sound like your bangin the owners daughter

[jc@douglas]

he was not including mine in that statement, mine is the only cam follower with proof to have failed like that, i sent autotech pictures of both my pump and follower and they seem to think their is something wrong with my specific pump..i have not seen another cam follower to date that has failed just like mine..everyone i see is punched in from the cam side mine is rare and is punched in the the fuel pump side..my car is also operating under condition that no other car is at this current time so my follower should be irrelivant <--- (i am no english major )

[blackvento36]

Quote, originally posted by chris@revotechnik »

No its not one thing.. its the whole issue. Again this is why people need to get off the tip. The followers are being worn in a matter they are thinning out and being pushed inwards. This thinning and stretching weakens the follower which then causes stress cracks. Eventually the entire center of the follower will fall out once its worn/stretched/cracked causing the tip of the pump to ride directly on the cam.

Yes, that is understood, we all know about the failures with the pump stretching and cracking out almost the entire face of the follower. While, in your opinion, Autotech's follower wear isn't a problem it is in mine. I can see that plunger causing the follower to wear right through the very center. Just because A in likely to happen sooner than B doesn't mean it's not an issue. If his had little mileage on it now, what would it be like in say another 5k miles? Assuming that it doesn't break in the common fashion first.

BTW stress and wear are 2 different things, we can argue about that too if you like.

[blackvento36]

Quote, originally posted by jc@douglas »

he was not including mine in that statement, mine is the only cam follower with proof to have failed like that, i sent autotech pictures of both my pump and follower and they seem to think their is something wrong with my specific pump..i have not seen another cam follower to date that has failed just like mine..everyone i see is punched in from the cam side mine is rare and is punched in the the fuel pump side..my car is also operating under condition that no other car is at this current time so my follower should be irrelivant <--- (i am no english major )

I understand you don't want to make this an Autotech bashing thing and that's fine, I don't either. He may not have been including your follower in his statement, but yours certainly answered the question he asked.

All I know is Spongebob shows me a pic of a plunger with a concave tip, and you show me a picture of a follower with wear which has almost certainly been caused by that concave tip. And he didn't even send the pic for that purpose, somebody just pointed it out.

Now the argument seems to be that yours is an isolated incident, but I bet your tip looks just like his. The only difference between your car and any other car running that pump that would be relevant is that your revved your engine higher than most. To me, that means your saying if you've ever tuned your car to the point you'd wanna rev it that high at the track, your Autotech pump will be holding you back. Alot of followers have had the faces punched completely out, which would hinder someone from noticing the wear you've seen. I'll bet most ppl haven't even checked their follower until it had a catastrophic failure.

[chris@revotechnik]

Quote, originally posted by blackvento36 »

If not, why did you change it?

The same could be asked to any number of people on this forum who have changed their follower but are only showing the back side

If their backside looks fine why did they change it and why only show the one side?

Quote »

Honestly Chris that is the most boneheaded thing I've heard on here in a while. You know better than that. The pressure was focused on such a specific part that it's damn near as pronounced on the backside as the front! Out of all the follower pics posted in this thread, that's the only one that looks like that.

Is it really that hard to figure out that jc's failure appears to be an isolated incident? Have you seen anyone actually post similar pictures or report a similar issue? That it doesn't have to mean that the problem was even directly related to the pump itself but possibly just exaggerated and really the PROBLEM that caused it was related to something else?

As its been brought up, did it float and cause a punching situation on the follower? If thats the case, a stock type tip would have done the same. Did it hold up in the bore possible and cause extra pressure on it? IF so the same could happen if it was a stock style tip.

The only thing being brought up so far is that the tips are different.. no proof that its actually a problem or the cause of a problem. When multiple people start wearing out the backside lets look at it.. Right now however they are wearing/deforming from the front face.

Quote »

Are you serious? I've almost made it a career on this forum to bash APR.

Is that really something to be proud of? I mean really shouldn't we be here to get to the bottom of things and discuss things, not bash?

On that note some of your former "bashing" brethren are now supporters. So really it doesn't matter what you've done in the past.

[chris@revotechnik]

Quote, originally posted by blackvento36 »

Yes, that is understood, we all know about the failures with the pump stretching and cracking out almost the entire face of the follower. While, in your opinion, Autotech's follower wear isn't a problem it is in mine. I can see that plunger causing the follower to wear right through the very center. Just because A in likely to happen sooner than B doesn't mean it's not an issue. If his had little mileage on it now, what would it be like in say another 5k miles? Assuming that it doesn't break in the common fashion first.

I've never said his follower is perfect and doesn't present an issue.. I have made the point several times but no one cares, that his is the only one that this has happened to. We can work to figure out the isolated instance or the one that is happening to handfuls of people. Which do you think is more productive?

Quote »

BTW stress and wear are 2 different things, we can argue about that too if you like.

Actually they are not if you really want to get down to it, but I know what you are saying and BOTH are occuring if you really want to get technical.