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    Thread: MK1 Cabby 1.8 G60TSI Buildup

    1. 05-01-2008 12:13 AM #1
      Termite's MK1 Cabby 1.8 G60TSI Buildup

      FYI: I have started building This site as a diary to all my projects.

      PHASE 1 (Research and Development)

      So, it starts... I've told a few people about my plans. I was originally going to keep it a secret, but as I dug into the scenarios I came to realize I'm going to need some advice. I’ve started picking apart some brains and websites; even started hording random parts. I'm in the R&D stage for my 1.8 TG60 cabby build.

      The Basics: Background of the VW 1.4 TSI
      In series is the way the 1.4 TSI Golf was designed, but that could present an issue with hot compressed air going in to the turbo. I'd need not only an IC after the turbo, before the intake, but I'd like to put an IC between the charger and turbo if I am going to do this.

      Parallel was my first thought, since I wouldn't be running hot air in to the turbo, and wouldn't require two IC's. So it's either two smaller IC's or one large one. I'll play this by ear as I go. Space and placement may dictate this design.

      Of course, this concept isn’t new or different by any means at all. Lancia had a similar setup in their AWD Mid Engine Deltas and were banned from the races for having too much power. I believe a few other manufacturers dabbled with this concept as well, but I haven’t dug that deep in to them. Honestly, the Lancia engine is what originally spawned this idea in my head. That and I saw some Skyline with it YEARS ago. I was fascinated from that point on. That and muh boy DuncMan brought it up in conversation again one day. It almost seemed fait for me to try this…

      “Why use an 1.8 8v G60 as your baseline.”
      Simple, the engine was free, and readily available. That and I figured a VR6 is much heavier, less ground clearance, and I didn’t get one for free. Don’t get me wrong, the VR6 is hella sexy sounding, and backs a huge punch in the pants, but I’m going to stick with the smaller engine to start. It was suggested to me by CanaryRadoG60 (not sure his vortex name), on the Strictly European Autosport forums to go with a 16v conversion for extra flow. Thanks for the advice mate, I’m going to look in to acquiring the parts.

      Asking for a handout:
      Now, I'd like to pick the brains of anyone who wishes to support my cause. If you have ANY input good or bad, please send it my way. Criticism, constructive or not, will give me something to work with. The whole point of this project is to attempt to do something "different", something hard to do. Hell, I may even attempt to find seal and hose kits for this to take E85. The thought of a green performance car had crossed my mind.

      The Scientific Method Who remembers this from school?

      ================================================
      Problem
      What turbo to use? I’m a bit new to the forced induction world, and don’t know the reviews and names of all the good turbo systems out there. I learn fast thought.
      Hypothesis:

      Test & Analysis:

      Conclusion:


      ================================================
      Problem
      Stock G60 ECU re-chipping/reprogramming, MegaSquirt, other piggyback system, or standalone?
      Hypothesis:
      The ECU that came with this engine is from an automatic setup. I’m assuming this will work fine, but I wonder what using an auto ECU will do when running a manual. I assume the only difference is the auto ECU has kick-down control. Speaking of which, I need to sell that tranny soonish.
      Advice from others
      From CanaryRadoG60 on the Strictly European Autosport forums
      snstuning.com <---sam knows his **** when it comes to all digi set-ups sam might have some info on the set-up you are looking to tackle. he might have tried and or thought of this one as well. sam might be difficult to get ahold of, but he responds well to IM on the vortex. look up his screen name.
      Test & Analysis:

      Conclusion:


      ================================================
      Problem
      Speaking of trannies... I also don't plan on converting the car to run the hydraulic tranny that mates with the G60, I planned on rebuilding and using my solid shift bunny tranny.
      Hypothesis:
      Of course I'll look in to changing the internals if I plan on producing an extreme amount of power. The bolt up should be direct as far as I have found otherwise... (Anyone?) I think the last owner of the cabby put a diesel tranny in it by mistake anyway. They said the old one went out on them and they had one put in from another car. Thing is, at around 65mph on the (120mph max) cluster, I'm actually rolling along around 40 something. That coincidently enough is about the same spot as about 45 or near there is on a diesel (85mph max) cluster. Either they put the wrong speedo in, or I have a diesel gearing. I am going to have to crawl under there or wait til I pull the stock motor out to check the stamping. If it is a diesel tranny, I might be able to get away without changing out the gears huh? Thoughts?
      Test & Analysis:

      Conclusion:


      ================================================
      Problem
      What about the Control Bypass Valve? [see diagram above] What do I use for that?
      Hypothesis:
      (order the one from the 1.4 TSI and modify it to work here?) Fabricate my own? How do I control it?
      Test & Analysis:

      Conclusion:


      ================================================
      Problem
      What is my boost mapping going to look like for a setup like this?
      Is that going to be complicated or just based on overall boost?
      Hypothesis:

      Test & Analysis:

      Conclusion:


      ================================================
      Problem
      E85
      Hypothesis:
      Might not work too well… It has been suggested to me that 18psi is the “safest” to run on pump gas, without detonation. E85 might not be able to meet that requirement.
      Test & Analysis:

      Conclusion:


      ================================================

      Reference Sources
      - Here's a pretty good write-up on how the 1.4 TSI works...
      - Green Earth Technologies for green motor lubricant and cleaners
      - Green Filter USA Lifetime warranty vs. K&N's million mile warranty. Well I know that's a stretch, but meh... K&N also over dips their rubber edge seal, blocking more of the breather area. While most of the Green's I have seen are nicely clean and not spilling over in to the breather area. Just a small OCD thing I noticed.
      - What ever happened with these "Green Tires" I wonder?
      - Squire's Rear Mount Turbo Systems The external mounting of this system helps to cool the turbo and keep the hot air out of the engine bay. Plus the metal hosing acts as an IC, cooling the air as it passes through the externally cooled piping. This system also reduces turbo lag, almost making my charger setup null.
      - VWVortex News Article on the Golf 1.4 TSI with diagrams and specs.

      Stuff already acquired...
      The Basics:
      - The car: 1984 Cabby

      - The engine: Stock 1.8 G60 well technically it doesn’t have the charger on it atm, so I guess we will call it a forged 1.8 (to be rebuilt fully and turbo added)
      - The wheels: 13" 2-piece Ronal basket weave (don't remember the exact model) Boy, do I need to clean those!

      - G60 stock IC
      - Working stock A/C (yup I'm going performance and cool - suck it)
      Extras acquired:
      - GT Grant Mahogany
      - New Duckbill (old one has cornering rash)
      - Some seemingly custom One-of-a-kind tubular steel bumpers I pulled off this other rabbit I bought cheap in Baltimore

      - PIAA HID ballast kit (not sure what I'm going to do with this, since I don't have a housing to use it with properly)
      - HELLA OE flat lens headlight housing
      - Kamei Factory OE Hood Scoupe (ahhhh fresh cabin air!!!) Used to belong to aKaBigMike, then acquired at Benbuilt4u’s shop. No Burkee, you still can’t have it back!

      Planned to acquire:
      - Turbo of course (but what kind, what size, blah)
      - Roots Charger (the engine I got was just a 60 basically, it didn't have the G-ladder charger with it, just the brackets and everything else.)
      - Hosing will more than likely be supplied by Henry's Engineering in Maryland. They are one of the East Coast's Leading manufacturers and resellers of Aeroquip high pressure hosing and fittings. A long time family friend owns the place, another long time family friend works there, as well as my Dad works there... can you say HOOK-UPS!?
      - Flowmaster 44 Series Muffler 2.5" for that DEEP tone and high flow. (3" won't fit up and over the rear u-arm, unless I get REALLY creative with the body and cutting some channels.)
      - Flowmaster Hushpower II Resonator 2.5" to reduce that rasp and enhanced the 44 Series deep rich sound. (3" won't fit up and over the rear u-arm, unless I get REALLY creative with the body and cutting some channels.)
      - Where the hell can I score a syncro/4motion/quattro drive train for this damn thing? Yea, I kind of have dreams to add this to the list as well, but that's a BIG dream. AWD cabby!?- I'll add more as I think of it...
      - Thinking about getting air temp sensors/gauges for each section of induction hosing, as well as just inside the intake opening; to monitor air temp as it travels the hosing. This might help me improve the heating issues stated above.

      - For live monitoring/car audio control/video and more… BEHOLD Carputer Heaven!
      - Mini-ITX Automotive Chassis
      - MSI Industrial LX800 Mini-ITX Mainboard – booting OS from [url=http://www.logicsupply.com/products/ts1gcf100i]compact flash – running my custom stripped down Windows XP
      - 8” in-dash touch screen
      - Vag-Com with USB dongle, always connected and logging to the internal carputer’s 40-pin IDE Flash Module
      - If I go with opting to not use the Stock ECU, and use a stand-alone instead, then the carputer will monitor that systems software, and Vag-Com is a moot point.


      Thanks to all who have helped so far…
      - My wifee, Maux (like faux), for being the awesomestest wifee evar, not nagging about the car, and actually pushing me to get it finished.
      - My dad for getting me first interested in vdubs.
      - My Brother-in-Law badazzgti88 for his advice and more
      - DuncMan for advice
      - 2bluejettacoupe for donating many of the parts, and for being and awesome friend
      - Cort for being an awesome long time friend as well, and busting my balls with my supposedly stupid idea to build a TSI. Meh, I’ll show you sucka!
      - aKaBigMike for first fully introducing me into the vdub tuning realm. He was the first person in VA to flag me down on the road, and is how I made friends in a state I knew very few people. And for making me fix his VRcoupe until 3am on the side of Rt.50 into Ocean City, MD. 
      - Lil Tee, I didn’t forget about your influence. I don’t know your tex name though.
      - turbopumpkin – Man, I don’t know your tex name either, but dayum, you have opened my eyes to some crazy fabricating and ish. I know anything is possible. You better believe I’m going to poke you from time to time on this one. Hope you don’t mind.

      OK peeps, pick it apart! Go ahead, I don't mind. Now off to drink my last beer and fall asleep.


      Modified by termitesgraffix at 12:01 AM 5-5-2008


      Modified by termitesgraffix at 2:06 AM 5-14-2008


    2. Member
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      05-01-2008 11:14 AM #2
      Good Luck on your project, using the VW TSI as the basis for the hardwear will be the way to go. The most diffucult part will be the tuning of course. Keep us posted on your progress!

    3. Member akabigmike2's Avatar
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      05-01-2008 06:00 PM #3
      DCIVW

    4. 05-01-2008 07:19 PM #4
      akabigmike2??? what happened to your other login son? You forget how to view forgotten password or something? Some angry hooligan from downtown after you?

      to you! Miss ya bro... come visit.


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      05-01-2008 09:29 PM #5
      Quote, originally posted by termitesgraffix »
      It was suggested to me by CanaryRadoG60 (not sure his vortex name), on the Strictly European Autosport forums to go with a 16v conversion for extra flow. Thanks for the advice mate, I’m going to look in to acquiring the parts.

      F**K a 16v head, if you are going to be swapping out heads, do it right and use an AEB 20v head

      Quote, originally posted by termitesgraffix »
      Hell, I may even attempt to find seal and hose kits for this to take E85. The thought of a green performance car had crossed my mind.

      E85 is a scam, thinking it is "Green" is not a good reason to use it...

      Quote, originally posted by termitesgraffix »

      Problem
      Stock G60 ECU re-chipping/reprogramming, MegaSquirt, other piggyback system, or standalone?

      Standalone would be your best bet

      Quote, originally posted by termitesgraffix »

      Problem
      E85
      Hypothesis:
      Might not work too well… It has been suggested to me that 18psi is the “safest” to run on pump gas, without detonation. E85 might not be able to meet that requirement.

      E85 has an octane of ~ 105 which means it would resist detonation better than pump gas which has an octane rating of ~ 87-93... Not to mention there are other ways of reducing detonation like alcohol injection, and lowering the C.R. more

      Good luck with your build


    6. 05-01-2008 10:05 PM #6
      Quote, originally posted by RipCity Euros »

      F**K a 16v head, if you are going to be swapping out heads, do it right and use an AEB 20v head

      That would certainly require me running a standalone on this setup then, yes? Man, that's a thought though... Not sure that would mate with this block though. I guess I need to also look up the bolt pattern and oil/water channel locations to see if they match. Man, I think you just cost me another million dollars and year of work.
      Quote, originally posted by RipCity Euros »
      E85 is a scam, thinking it is "Green" is not a good reason to use it...

      Agreed, but it looks good at tax time. I doubt I'm going to go that route anyway. Was more of just an added thought really.
      Quote, originally posted by RipCity Euros »
      Good luck with your build

      Thanks

    7. Member sdezego's Avatar
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      05-01-2008 10:09 PM #7
      I didn't have a chance to read your entire thread yet, but have you seen Rokka's 1.8TG60?

      I saw you are going to use the 020 trans. I have to say, that is suicidal...

      Quote, originally posted by fastslc »
      http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=L39bwtJeMuc

      Read carefully !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      http://forums.vwvortex.com/zer...age=1


    8. 05-01-2008 10:16 PM #8
      Quote, originally posted by sdezego »
      I didn't have a chance to read your entire thread yet, but have you seen Rokka's 1.8TG60? I saw you are going to use the 020 trans. I have to say, that is suicidal...

      Oh, he's already done it! Nice! I'm going to hit him up for some advice. Thing I saw though was, he apparently has his charger running always and dragging the engine down. I plan on using the electro-magnetic clutch method to disengage the charger. I don't want to have to rebuild every 3K like he is either. Yea, I'm still not sure what I'm going to do about the tranny, maybe I'll talk to Rokka. His setup looks nice though. Good lookin' out!

    9. Member sdezego's Avatar
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      05-01-2008 10:33 PM #9
      I am not sure where his orig build thread was, but I thought he was using some sort of a viscous coupling for the charger. ...unless that was one of my bad dreams of me thinking how I will be able to rev my 2L20v G60 to 8500 RPM

    10. 05-01-2008 10:40 PM #10
      Quote, originally posted by sdezego »
      I am not sure where his orig build thread was

      http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=2075109

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      05-01-2008 11:58 PM #11
      Quote, originally posted by termitesgraffix »

      Not sure that would mate with this block though. I guess I need to also look up the bolt pattern and oil/water channel locations to see if they match. Man, I think you just cost me another million dollars and year of work.

      I got ya covered my man

      http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1674618


    12. 05-02-2008 12:23 AM #12
      Quote, originally posted by RipCity Euros »

      I got ya covered my man
      http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1674618

      Apparently your search fu is faster than mine...

    13. Member badazzgti88's Avatar
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      05-02-2008 08:30 PM #13
      dale don't run a 20v head. 16v is fine and much cheaper and you'll make great ph.

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      05-02-2008 08:49 PM #14
      Oh, and did i sugest an eaton charger yet

    15. 05-03-2008 10:43 PM #15
      I've got a few cents to throw into the cookie jar.

      Second problem. The TSI uses a magnetic clutch on the supercharger to disengage it for when the turbo is spooled. Finding a pulley that can adequately handle the torque/power required by the supercharger will be a problem. Mercedes might have something that would work but you'll run into belt compatibility and diameter problems.

      Realistically the TSI setup is used for a blower to spool up a turbo that would otherwise have significant lag on the setup. The 1.4TSI without a blower would have poor turbo response, but you're building a 1.8 so the turbo you can use is going to be much bigger. I would say at the least something like a GT28R. You could save some money and get a T3 super 60 or something, they'll have worse boost response but that wont matter much with a blower to spool it up. Something in the 250hp range would suit you nicely I think. Still, probably past upper limit for an 020 transmission with any chance of reliability.

      I would also advise against E85 because it throws lots of problems into the equation that will make life really difficult. Also as a personal opinion from what I have researched about it, it's not as green as you'd like to think it is.

      You're going to need something with significantly more sophistication than a G60 ECU. It simply doesn't have enough programmable outputs to control everything that needs controlling.

      Boost mapping: Basically you'll have the blower run up to a set RPM and disengage. The manifold pressure there will be dictated by blower drive speed. After that, the ECU/wastegate will control manifold pressure for the turbo.


    16. 05-03-2008 10:48 PM #16
      yeah he stated a roots type at the top. Im planning on doing the same thing with my vr. im looking at the eatons and Im getting mixed reviews as to which supercharger I must use. I have a GT40R that I hope I can use without possibly overpowering the supercharger. I would also recommend water/meth injection when running this.

    17. 05-03-2008 10:53 PM #17
      and about the clutch if you see the diagrams on the TSI, you can see that it uses a centrifugal charger, which spins much faster than a roots type. do you think the clutch could manage an eaton as he stated he would use?

    18. 05-03-2008 11:33 PM #18
      All good points. I was thinking of using the clutch from the 1.4 TSI, if it was able to handle the same RPM and torque for the charger I would use. Another thought that came to mind was altering an A/C clutch pulley. Pulley ratios could easily be offset by the mated block-side pulley. The clutch pulley will be mounted at the block, and the charger will have a standard pulley. I will offset the clutch pulleys size with a larger or smaller charger pulley. Blah, I think I got a bit redundant there... Anyway, thanks for the advice. Well taken.

      Everyone has been downing the 020, and I don't blame them. Question is, what should I use then? Or should I just keep the 020 but find some place that will just replace the gears with heavier sets? I haven't even started to think about gear ratios to power band yet at ALL!


    19. 05-03-2008 11:43 PM #19
      I think if your gonna drop the money into this project anyway, expect to spend a little more on a cable shift conversion. O2J.

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      05-04-2008 02:29 PM #20
      Quote, originally posted by Geoff Rood »
      You could save some money and get a T3 super 60 or something, they'll have worse boost response but that wont matter much with a blower to spool it up.

      The charger doesnt spool the turbo on a twin charged motor.


    21. 05-04-2008 03:25 PM #21
      I beg to differ. Running twice as much air into the engine at low RPM's produces twice as much exhaust gas energy which helps cut down spool time of a larger turbocharger.

    22. Member
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      05-04-2008 03:30 PM #22
      Quote, originally posted by Geoff Rood »
      I beg to differ. Running twice as much air into the engine at low RPM's produces twice as much exhaust gas energy which helps cut down spool time of a larger turbocharger.

      Fair enough, i thought you were refering to the outlet of the supercharger feeding into the turbo spooling it...


    23. 05-04-2008 05:30 PM #23
      Correct... The idea behind this is to give more instant bottom end torque, to get your moving quicker, while at the same time produce more exhaust output to spool the turbo faster. In a sense "the charger spools the turbo faster" is a correct statement, but it is indirectly doing so. Once the turbo starts to boost, the charger will disengage and free spin, so to not take power away from the turbo's production. The air at this point is not going through the charger anymore, so you won't get a windmill action, the air will be traveling via the bypass valve, straight to the turbo.

      I'm willing to bet that if Rokka does this with his setup, he could squeeze another 10-20 ponies outta his setup. And he won't be rebuilding his charger as often. I'm wondering what mine will produce. Time will tell. Rokka, if you are looking at your PMs, hit me back! I have questions!


      Modified by termitesgraffix at 7:05 PM 5-4-2008


    24. 05-04-2008 06:44 PM #24
      so are you saying there is a way to disengage the supercharger without having a magnetic clutch on it? just use a bypass valve or wastegate?

    25. 05-04-2008 07:11 PM #25
      Nope. As the diagram above shows... There is a magnetic clutch pulley, separate from that of the charger pulley. The clutch pulley is placed in the crank belt system, and the charger connects to the clutch pulley with a separate belt. Essentially, the clutch pulley has two pulleys on it. To offset the RPM ratios, you would either change the charger pulley size, or the secondary clutch pulley size. Look at the diagram very closely and you will see what I mean. The control bypass valve is also included, to allow the air to route around the now free spinning charger. Again, see the diagram above.

      In summary, the magnetic clutch is not attached to the charger at all.

      Good questions though.


      Modified by termitesgraffix at 7:40 PM 5-4-2008


    26. 05-04-2008 07:22 PM #26
      what is the diagram that you're speaking of? not the air flow diagram I hope.

    27. 05-04-2008 07:42 PM #27
      Yup, the airflow diagram. Notice where it says "electromagnetic clutch"... you will see another pulley attached to and right next to it, with a belt going to the crank pulley. Why do you hope "not the air flow diagram"? Is the line pointing to the clutch confusing? I can alter it to make more sense if need be.


      Modified by termitesgraffix at 8:02 PM 5-4-2008

    28. 05-04-2008 07:55 PM #28
      I was hoping there was an incredibly specific one that showed how it works. but no worries, i understand how it works now. is there a picture of the clutch though?

    29. 05-04-2008 08:04 PM #29
      Ah, I see. Yea, it pretty much looks like an A/C Compressor Clutch. I'll see if I can dig up this particular one though, and get back to you.

      Maybe one of our brothers in the European local would chime in and provide us with a picture they took...


      Modified by termitesgraffix at 8:06 PM 5-4-2008


    30. 05-04-2008 08:05 PM #30
      I like where this is going, i was going to do a twin charged cabby a year ago, but plans changed.

      I was going to use a mercedes charger out of an slk230, it has an electromagnetic clutch attached to the pulley, i was thinking if you hooked the wire up to an rpm sensor, and had it cut power to it to disengage the clutch at a certain rpm (say 3000) then that would work...the only problem with that charger is the pulley is pretty big and only produces about 6psi of boost.

      Good luck with the build

      *edit* picture of the charger




      Modified by Chet Ubetcha at 8:07 PM 5-4-2008

      "Jacques Cousteau could never get this low."
      PVW - 05/09

    31. 05-04-2008 08:11 PM #31
      Compliments of VWVortex.com Volkswagen News Article. Thanks guys, YOU RAWK!

      OK, this kind of shows it, but is a bit small. See the charger system to the left, and the clutch pulley to the right. The open belt loop on the charger side is what wraps around the clutch side (right).

      Up close, you can see them mated and how the clutch connects.

      Full article on the 1.4 TSI
      http://www.vwvortex.com/cgi-bi...ter=1



      Modified by termitesgraffix at 8:14 PM 5-4-2008


    32. 05-04-2008 08:51 PM #32
      hmm, thats cool. I wish there was a way of doing it just by using some sort of pulley tensioner system, like non magnetic clutch type. but it seems they may be easy to get a hold of considering they came out of the slk's.

    33. 05-09-2008 08:38 PM #33
      I found a 16V 2.0 head at a local junkyard and went to pull it off last weekend. Looks like it's using the 12-point old style head bolts. Hmm, looks like Sears doesn't have the 12-point bit I need to pull the head off, or am I just not looking for the right name?

      Anyone know a store that might be local, or an online place that would have this bit? Local would be perfect, so I can go get it tomorrow.

      12-point (looks like Torx on crack)


      Edit: NVM!!! Enough determination and Google-fu brings the answer. Triple Square 12mm
      http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_1...0000P

      Yay me! Off to Sears again, and here's to hoping they are in stock.

      And an AMAZING THANKS to VgRt6 for posting...
      http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1208194


      Modified by termitesgraffix at 8:56 PM 5-9-2008


    34. 05-10-2008 10:44 AM #34
      that should be a sticky thread lol. so is that cabby going to be a 1.8 16 valve? if so that'll be dopedydope.

    35. 05-10-2008 03:25 PM #35
      Yea, I'm grabbing the head to work with. I'm leaning more toward 16v, but if a 20v should fall in to my lap, who am I to turn it away? But, yea, I'm going to go snag that 16v 2.0 head tomorrow, and mate it to my 1.8 block. I'm thinking the 16v intake might make for a bit more clearance to mount the turbo as well. BONUS

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