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    Thread: Symptoms of timing being half tooth off.

    1. 05-11-2008 11:30 PM #1
      What are the symptoms of having the timing chains be half a tooth off? Will the car still run? Run, but run poorly? Any extra noise or noticeable vibration?

    2. Member Snowhere's Avatar
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      05-12-2008 12:27 AM #2
      Run, but poorly. Mine had jumped a few teeth and would run but not idle. Or I should say idle at 100 rpm and not idle higher. I would be pumping the gas, the only way it would stay running, and she would smoke terribly. Like I said, she was off a few teeth.

    3. 05-12-2008 12:35 AM #3
      Does that mean only a half tooth off will idle and run ok? In other words, if I get my chains, will I be able to tell if its done correctly?

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      05-12-2008 12:54 AM #4
      I do not follow you on the chains. If you do, or have someone do your chains, you are going to be able to see what is up. I would think a simple timing light should tell you that it is off. If you even suspect it is jumped in the VR, you should check it out. If your keyway is sheared, it will only start to jump off more and unlike my G60, you can damage your valves. I don't think it is too likely to jump enough to cause interference and still run, but why take that chance?

      Even one tooth off should be noticeable in loss of power and lower mileage as the timing will be off.


    5. 05-12-2008 01:19 AM #5
      it won't be anything like ok when it's off that much. 27 teeth on the cams, 24 on crank, and the intermediat goes from 18 to 32. so half a tooth can be anywhere from 10 to 5.6 degrees off. if you just put it back together and it's half a tooth off, you timed it with the intermediate shaft 90 degrees off.

      http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1264409

      other ways to lose timing would probably make a ton of noise before a tooth is skipped.


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      05-12-2008 01:51 AM #6
      car runs like ****

    7. 05-12-2008 02:00 AM #7
      did you have the timing chains off?
      if you want accurate help you need to reword your question. instead of diagnosing it yourself and asking what happens if what you diagnosed is true, you should say what you did to break it, what you did to fix it and describe what it's doing.

    8. 05-12-2008 02:12 AM #8
      Sorry to be vague, but I need to get my chains done and am worried that it might not be done quite right, and I don't know if afterward whether I would be able to tell if all is well or not. So I am curious as the symptoms of it being done incorrectly. I read the DIY and they mentioned that the bolts are different lengths, that the timing can be off etc and I am curious if I will be able to tell if bolts didn't end up back in the right place, correct parts were used, timing is correct etc. Is there anyway to confirm the procedure was done correctly?

    9. 05-12-2008 02:46 AM #9
      if your that worried that much about your timing chains being off, i think its time to find a different shop w/more vr6 experience. Please don't bring it to Joe blow on the corner.........

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      05-12-2008 09:07 AM #10
      Quote, originally posted by mkev0917 »
      if your that worried that much about your timing chains being off, i think its time to find a different shop w/more vr6 experience. Please don't bring it to Joe blow on the corner.........

      Or joe Schmuck the Ragman... he isnt very good either...

      Toaster on NASCAR: "I'd rather set myself on fire than party with white trash and watch traffic."

    11. 05-12-2008 09:15 AM #11
      how the **** can you be 1/2 a tooth off??

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      05-12-2008 10:04 AM #12
      a half tooth off should cause a noticeable power loss and exhaust note change around 4500rpm. give it full throttle from low rpm and you should be able to feel/hear a difference when you get to ~4500 if the timing is off.

    13. 05-12-2008 11:18 AM #13
      Quote, originally posted by mkev0917 »
      if your that worried that much about your timing chains being off, i think its time to find a different shop w/more vr6 experience. Please don't bring it to Joe blow on the corner.........

      No offense but that advice isn't that helpful. Everyone says they will do a great job.

      Quote, originally posted by brilliantyellowg60 »
      how the **** can you be 1/2 a tooth off??

      Easy, the two intermediate gears have different amount of teeth. So you can have it so that it is half a tooth out.




      Modified by a_riot at 9:20 AM 5-12-2008


    14. 05-12-2008 11:19 AM #14
      Quote, originally posted by a_riot »

      No offense but that advice isn't that helpful. Everyone says they will do a great job.

      Easy, the two intermediate gears have different amount of teeth. ONe has 23 and the other 24 I believe. So you can have it so that it is half a tooth out.


      Modified by a_riot at 9:19 AM 5-12-2008

      the cam gears?

      they have the same # of teeth


    15. 05-12-2008 05:23 PM #15
      Not the cam gears the intermediate gears. At least this is how I understand it. Due to the fact that its a VR6 all squashed into 15 degrees, the timing is different that other cars. Someone else can explain it better but bottom line is that it can be out half a tooth. fredhogarth explains it above.

    16. 05-12-2008 06:22 PM #16
      you can be one tooth off, not half

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      05-12-2008 06:30 PM #17
      im pretty sure a tooth off on the intermediate shaft has the effect of making the camshafts be a half tooth off, but the cams are still lined up properly in relation to themselves

    18. 05-12-2008 06:38 PM #18
      on the intermediate shaft it changes from 18 to 32 teeth. there is a square cross here to show timing with one side meant to be north. 32 divides by 4 so any of the lines can go up in that respect, but 18 does not so the cam gear will work with "north" in the north position or in the south. if it is east or west it will be half a tooth off.

      i think he read vgrt6's chain writeup and freaked at 8-2-04 update. search page for half

      Quote »
      before reinstalling the head and upper timing chain, you MUST make sure to rotate the crank until Cyl. #1 is at TDC AND and you can see the notch in the intermediate sprocket, as shown by the red arrow in the picture below.

      If you do not do this, there is a strong possibility that when the upper timing chain is reinstalled, it will be one half of a tooth off relative to the lower timing chain.




      Modified by fredhogarth at 3:41 PM 5-12-2008

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      05-12-2008 07:22 PM #19
      I read that if its off a tooth, then your going to bend some valves because VR6 are interference engines.

    20. 05-13-2008 08:26 PM #20
      No I don't think any valves get bent if that is the case. But I thought there were other symptoms that would enable you to tell that it was out.

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      05-13-2008 09:54 PM #21

      never heard of half a tooth off. if the chain at the bottom is off, then
      you're fu... you have to remove the tranny. if the mechanic has a
      book and as long as he pays attention to the timing marks before
      removing everything then he should be fine.

      if it's off at the top where the dual chain connects to the cam gears,
      then it will be an easy fix.


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      05-13-2008 10:23 PM #22
      Quote, originally posted by brilliantyellowg60 »
      you can be one tooth off, not half

      i was about to post this exact same thing. WTF.

      if you were half a tooth off, the chain wouldn't be ON!!!!!!


    23. 05-13-2008 10:47 PM #23
      You guys should read the entire post. Here is the relevant part from the DIY.

      Before reinstalling the head and upper timing chain, you MUST make sure to rotate the crank until Cyl. #1 is at TDC AND and you can see the notch in the intermediate sprocket, as shown by the red arrow in the picture below.


      If you do not do this, there is a strong possibility that when the upper timing chain is reinstalled, it will be one half of a tooth off relative to the lower timing chain. To make sure that this situation does not arise, turn the crankshaft until Cyl. #1 is at TDC and then check for the notch in the intermediate shaft. If it is not visible, turn the crankshaft another revolution and check again for the notch. Repeat the process until the crankshaft is at TDC AND you can see the notch in the intermediate sprocket. You may have to rotate as much as 3+ revolutions (4 would get you back to your starting place) in order for both to occur simultaneously. The amount of crankshaft revolution necessary will depend on how far off the crankshaft was from TDC or how much the crankshaft was rotated with the upper timing chain disconnected.

      The reason that the above procedure is necessary is due to the fact that the 4 timing sprockets (crank, inner intermediate, outer intermediate and camshaft (2)) do not have the same number of teeth. As a result, a full rotation of the crank sprocket does not produce one full rotation in the other sprockets. The impact of this is that setting the crankshaft to Cyl. #1 TDC does not always simultaneously set the intermediate sprocket to the correct position for the reinstallation of the upper timing chain.


    24. 05-13-2008 10:53 PM #24
      Are you able to do the timing chains yourself? If you are and you have the cam lock tool, it is almost impossible to NOT correctly time the motor.

    25. 05-14-2008 01:47 AM #25
      yea the marks are extremely obvious and you have the warning about the half tooth thing, which is probably the most likely error to make. go for it.

    26. 05-21-2008 06:49 PM #26
      My car has these symptoms (loss of power, different exhaust note, slight sputtering), directly after I did my headgasket. Now when I put the head back on I made sure cylinder 1 was at TDC, the crank lined up with its marks on the block, and the cams were set where I could slide in the cam plate I could also see the notch on the intermediate sprocket. The notch wasnt directly straight up though it was slightly more pointing towards the front of the motor. I guess my question is do these symptoms seem like it would be a timing issue? I have changed numerous sensors on the motor thinking those might be the problem. Thanks for any help Im running out of possible solutions!!

    27. 05-21-2008 10:09 PM #27
      probably your cam position sensor, marino
      did you putthe magnet on right? or did it fall apart? is it plugged in?

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      05-21-2008 10:17 PM #28
      Quote, originally posted by fredhogarth »
      probably your cam position sensor, marino
      did you putthe magnet on right? or did it fall apart? is it plugged in?

      i cracked mine when i put in new cams...caused much the same as what youre describing and headaches up the ass. i tore it apart numerous times to check, double check, triple check timing and changed sensors before i finally noticed the magnet was cracked


    29. 05-22-2008 11:48 AM #29
      Quote, originally posted by marinocr125 »
      My car has these symptoms (loss of power, different exhaust note, slight sputtering), directly after I did my headgasket. Now when I put the head back on I made sure cylinder 1 was at TDC, the crank lined up with its marks on the block, and the cams were set where I could slide in the cam plate I could also see the notch on the intermediate sprocket. The notch wasnt directly straight up though it was slightly more pointing towards the front of the motor. I guess my question is do these symptoms seem like it would be a timing issue? I have changed numerous sensors on the motor thinking those might be the problem. Thanks for any help Im running out of possible solutions!!

      Make sure your hall sender got plugged back in. I had symptoms similar to yours and the mechanic forgot to plug it back in after doing some work. The car ran, but sputtered if you floored it and I noticed a loss of power.


    30. 05-22-2008 03:39 PM #30
      Yes it was plugged in and I changed the CPS sensor already but I did not change the magnet Im going to go and check it out, and pick one up also if theyre cheap. This car is driving me insane though trying to figure out what it is

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