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    Thread: New 2.0T TSI question

    1. Member theskippur's Avatar
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      07-03-2008 08:30 AM #1
      What does TSI mean? FSI is Fuel Stratified Injection, if I'm not mistaken.

    2. 07-03-2008 09:49 AM #2
      Edit: See below


      Modified by LowSky at 9:51 AM 7-3-2008

    3. 07-03-2008 09:51 AM #3
      Right from the moths of VW: Note the TSI in the GTI isnt twin charged

      FSI
      Fuel Stratified Injection is a variant of fuel injection employed in modern four stroke petrol engines. The gasoline is injected right into the combustion chamber of each cylinder, as opposed to conventional multi point fuel injection that happens in the intake manifold. The technology, adapted from Audi's Le Mans racecars, induces a electric charge in the fuel-air mixture.

      TSI
      Twin-charged version of Volkwagen’s FSI direct injection engine. TSI stands for “turbocharged stratified injection”. This little 1.4 liter monster makes about 168hp and 240Nm of torque at 1750-4000rpm. This big amount of low-end torque is achievable through a supercharger that works up to 2000rpm before the turbocharger kicked in.

      TDI
      Volkswagen's Turbo Direct Injection is a turbocharged and intercooled diesel engine with direct fuel injection.Direct injection diesel engines operate by having the fuel injector arranged to inject fuel directly into the engine's cylinder, as opposed to indirect injection diesel engines, where the fuel is injected into a pre-combustion chamber. The reduced material volume of the direct injection diesel engine reduces heat losses and thereby increases engine efficiency, at the expense of increased combustion noise. A direct injection engine is also easier to start when cold, due to the reduced heat loss of the design.


    4. Member Sump's Avatar
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      07-03-2008 09:52 AM #4
      The New TSI name bothers me.

      Quote, originally posted by TopGear Website »
      And just like VW's FSi moniker, there's no direct explanation of what TSi stands for, but if we tell you it could well be 'turbo supercharger injection', you should begin to get the drift.

      In europe there is already a TSI engine that is both turbo and supercharged.

      In short, The new US 'TSI' is really the same FSI with some different components.


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      07-03-2008 09:55 AM #5
      The US engines never had Fuel Stratified Injection, rather it was dubbed Fuel Straight Injection. It had something to do with the quality of the fuel in the US (and Canada).

      The TSI moniker makes even less sense, as it's confusing to people who know of the TSI twin charged plant in ROW. I would assume the acronym stands for Turbo Straight Injection here.

      This bit: "The reduced consumption of the FSI engine is achieved by stratification in the low and medium speed ranges." does not apply to US engines and never has, far as I know.

      Found a better explanation, basically we don't get the lean burn mode that the true Stratified engine does:

      "Although FSI does allow engines to run lean air-to-fuel ratios—thus saving fuel—there is a side effect of increased production of NOx. There are catalytic converters that can remove the extra NOx, but the high-sulfur fuel we use in the U.S. contaminates them. There are Audi engines in Europe—including racing powerplants—that use FSI with lean burn, but here, FSI engines run about the same air-to-fuel ratio as port-injected engines. So for us, FSI is short for "fuel straight injection."


      Modified by silverA4quattro at 9:59 AM 7-3-2008


    6. 07-03-2008 10:07 AM #6
      Quote, originally posted by sump22 »
      The New TSI name bothers me.

      Agreed.

      Quote, originally posted by sump22 »
      In short, The new US 'TSI' is really the same FSI with some different components.

      Uhhh, gotta disagree with you on this one. As far as I know, there isn't even a single interchangable component between the U.S. spec FSI and the U.S. spec TSI.

    7. Member Sump's Avatar
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      07-03-2008 10:11 AM #7
      Quote, originally posted by shipo »

      Agreed.


      Uhhh, gotta disagree with you on this one. As far as I know, there isn't even a single interchangable component between the U.S. spec FSI and the U.S. spec TSI.

      So 2008 GTI's with the 2.0T TSI are 100% different from 2008 GTIs with the 2.0T FSI. I don't think I can buy that. The only changes I have heard are chain driven, new intake/ engine cover, and few others.


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      07-03-2008 10:14 AM #8
      Quote, originally posted by sump22 »

      So 2008 GTI's with the 2.0T TSI are 100% different from 2008 GTIs with the 2.0T FSI. I don't think I can buy that. The only changes I have heard are chain driven, new intake/ engine cover, and few others.

      It's a completely different engine.

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    9. Member Sump's Avatar
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      07-03-2008 10:16 AM #9
      Anyone got a link explaining this?

    10. 07-03-2008 10:17 AM #10
      Quote, originally posted by sump22 »

      So 2008 GTI's with the 2.0T TSI are 100% different from 2008 GTIs with the 2.0T FSI. I don't think I can buy that. The only changes I have heard are chain driven, new intake/ engine cover, and few others.


      Sorry, the CCTA engine is a complete clean sheet redesign from the ground on up. The only common components these two engines share are air, fuel, coolant and oil.

    11. 07-03-2008 10:18 AM #11
      Quote, originally posted by sump22 »
      Anyone got a link explaining this?

      http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3889971


    12. Member Sump's Avatar
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      07-03-2008 10:19 AM #12
      Thanks. I found this too.

      Quote, originally posted by 2.oT forum »
      uote:
      Originally Posted by meerbusch
      I'm new in this forum and kind of accidently stumbled over this post. BPY engine vs CCTA engine is a very clear thing: The CCTA engine is a complete new design and improves in many areas where the old engine was a compromise. (Note: I'm german and called up a friend in germany who happened to be an Audi Master mechanic. He forwarded me a pdf document ; this one is actually a public document).

      balance shafts: BPY has a add-on solution (expensive) vs build-in in CCTA. The goal is to improve the accoustic behavior as well as the mid- to high-end vibration. This will help wear and tear long term for any attached part as well as internal engine block parts.

      engine block: aside from the fact that the engine block is shared with the new 1.8L engine of the same family ( hence "world engine") it has been build for higher average internal pressures up to 25 Bar. That in turn allows for higher specific power output of greater 100kW/L and 175Nm/L. The current BPY engine is by far not build for that.

      engine block vs crankshaft: to prevent longterm warping Audi/VW used a metal composition with almost identical expansion coefficients 13.17 and 13.26 um/mK. This has been an issue with the bearings at high power output and high temperature.

      thermal profiles: the engine was optimized for higher temp effeciency which means less losses and better gas milage.

      Head and block: the head is aluminum and has a different characteristic. To minimize stress between both parts they used highly komplex FEM Modells to optimize the mounting points and a better more evenly distribution of the stress points. That's a major improvement for the gaskets and for the head mounts (bolts). The old engine wasn't optimized that well.

      waterpump and thermostat housing was removed from the block because of the lack of structurell support. But all oil and oil return paths , blow-by paths and chain housing was integrated. The engine is lighter, shorter, better to maintain due to an overall lower component count for the engine. Keep in mind, this engine is also cheaper to manufacture (one of the main goals) as well as being manufacturable all over the world (in the US as well). This engine was actually a co-developent of Audi and a steel plant (sounds funny I know, but they have the knowledge of HOW to make it). This was not driven by VW.

      Needless to say that, in the current configuration this engine is good for 270HP in the standart build. In the paper they also talked about the manufacturing process of precision pouring and casting and there they are about a factor of 2x better than on the old engine. Their process window is much much tighter now and more reliable. That bgood for process variation.

      So knowing what is in the paper, and neglecting the modding aspect of the older BPY engine for the moment, the CCTA engine is a generation better, more reliable and more efficient. The smaller new 1.8L brother is already one of the best choices in germany. Compared to the older 1.8T engine it has 50% more torque (less 10 HP) but is almost as drivable as the 2.0L BPY engine. And that is a statement in one of my german car magazines. So my choice is clear here. Anyone who has the new engine now is lucky to have it, because it's the future.
      (Audi will have some mods that VW engines won't get like variable valve lifting)

      Hope that helped some people


    13. 07-03-2008 10:27 AM #13
      2008 gti engine is closer to the 2.0 fsi from 2006-2007 than most 08 oweners would like to admit. it is definitely NOT a 2.0 twin charged engine so sorry to everyone crossing your fingers for that. Now, 2008 owners wishing to set themselves apart will try to tell you the 2008 gti has a completely different engine. well it's not. block, pistons, crank shaft, balancer placement is the same. it's still 2 liters and it produces the EXACT SAME AMOUNT OF POWER which is what it all boils down to. there you have it. sure the timing chain replaces the belt and the air intake system is revised but none of the features of the audi versions like valve lift will make it to the gti engine.

      Modified by Viper83181 at 10:31 AM 7-3-2008


      Modified by Viper83181 at 10:44 AM 7-3-2008


    14. 07-03-2008 10:35 AM #14
      I'm thinking that you haven't been paying attention.

      - For 2006, 2006 and the first half of the 2008 model year, VW installed the BPY 2.0T FSI engine in the GTI.

      - Starting with about the March 2008 production of GTIs, VW installed the new (and I do mean COMPLETELY NEW) CCTA engine. Like it or not, believe it or not, the "block, pistons, crank shaft, balancer placement" are NOT the same.


    15. 07-03-2008 10:40 AM #15
      well i think my 08 gti is made 05/08 and its the FSi engine..maybe im reading the production date wrong?

    16. 07-03-2008 11:06 AM #16
      I'm thinking that I mis-worded my statement about when and how the TSI went into production. I should have said something like, "Around March of 2008, VW started installing the new CCTA engine in GTIs, A3s, and a few other transverse installations."

      During April of this year we began to see sporadic reports of GTIs reaching our shores with the TSI motor, and as time has gone on, the mix if TSIs over FSIs has gradually swung to the point where most (if not all) GTIs hitting our shores are sporting the new engine.


    17. 07-03-2008 06:18 PM #17
      You can find the build date on the driver door sill...I have the new TSI and my build date was 04/08

    18. 07-03-2008 06:39 PM #18
      Quote, originally posted by shipo »

      During April of this year we began to see sporadic reports of GTIs reaching our shores with the TSI motor, and as time has gone on, the mix if TSIs over FSIs has gradually swung to the point where most (if not all) GTIs hitting our shores are sporting the new engine.

      Also FYI the TSI motor was showing up in Passat's at least a month prior to that.


    19. 07-03-2008 08:39 PM #19
      The all new 2.0T is not in any of VW/Audi cars in USA yet. The first one to receive it will be the new A4 sedan, then it will trickle down to the A3, TT and then VW's. The revised 2.0T which is called FSI incorrectly here, is just that a slight revision, not a clean sheet design like the also incorrectly labeled TSI.

    20. 07-03-2008 10:59 PM #20
      Quote, originally posted by tjm7671 »
      The all new 2.0T is not in any of VW/Audi cars in USA yet. The first one to receive it will be the new A4 sedan, then it will trickle down to the A3, TT and then VW's. The revised 2.0T which is called FSI incorrectly here, is just that a slight revision, not a clean sheet design like the also incorrectly labeled TSI.

      It seems that you haven't been listening either. There are two versions of the new 2.0T, one for transverse applications (i.e. A3, TT, GTI, GLI, Tiguan, Eos, and the Passat), and another for the longitudnal applications, (i.e. A4, A5, and in other countries, the A6).

      Like it or not, believe it or not, the new engine has been here in the states since April, and as I understand it, the BPY is all but phased out. The more powerful "Valve Lift" version of the engine will debut (here in the States) this fall in the new A4 and in the A5, and the word on the street is that it will NOT trickle down to the transverse cars.


      Modified by shipo at 11:00 PM 7-3-2008


    21. 07-03-2008 11:14 PM #21
      [QUOTE=shipo]
      It seems that you haven't been listening either. There are two versions of the new 2.0T, one for transverse applications (i.e. A3, TT, GTI, GLI, Tiguan, Eos, and the Passat), and another for the longitudnal applications, (i.e. A4, A5, and in other countries, the A6).

      Like it or not, believe it or not, the new engine has been here in the states since April, and as I understand it, the BPY is all but phased out. The more powerful "Valve Lift" version of the engine will debut (here in the States) this fall in the new A4 and in the A5, and the word on the street is that it will NOT trickle down to the transverse cars.


      OK here we go, unlike 99.8% of people here I have real knowledge as my father is an engineer for VW America for Audi AG. The new engine isnt out as of yet. It is not being put in any of VW's group cars yet. Yes their is a revision of the older 2.0 out, no doubt. BUT the all new engine will not come out until as u stated latter this year in our A4 and the row a5, a3 tt and so forth. And yes it might trickle down due to economy of scale, ie no reason to produce two engines with similar characteristics esp when the new one is more efficient.


    22. 07-03-2008 11:24 PM #22
      I'm sorry, but either you or you're father has it wrong.

      The 2.0T that has been shipping under the cover that says "TSI" is an entirely new, clean sheet engine design. The only differences between the TSI and the Valve Lift version that will be coming in the A4 is the cylinder head.

      If you don't believe me, that's cool, just go down to your local VW dealership and crawl under any TSI equipped Passat, GLI, GTI or Tiguan and take a look at the engine block, it's completely different, with the most obvious change being the location of the balance shafts (readily visible on the side of the block).

      So, what's different? Let's see, how about the crank, connecting rods, bearings, pistons, engine block (complete with newly located balance shafts), cam drive (now a chain instead of a belt), the cylinder head and all of its components, the intake plenum/manifold, the exhaust manifold. Furthermore, the new engine has a different bore, a different stroke and a different compression ratio.

      What's not different? Uhhh, the air, fuel, oil and coolant that go into the engine.


      Modified by shipo at 11:26 PM 7-3-2008


    23. Senior Member feels_road's Avatar
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      07-04-2008 12:04 AM #23
      Quote, originally posted by tjm7671 »
      OK here we go, unlike 99.8% of people here I have real knowledge as my father is an engineer for VW America for Audi AG. The new engine isnt out as of yet. It is not being put in any of VW's group cars yet. Yes their is a revision of the older 2.0 out, no doubt. BUT the all new engine will not come out until as u stated latter this year in our A4 and the row a5, a3 tt and so forth. And yes it might trickle down due to economy of scale, ie no reason to produce two engines with similar characteristics esp when the new one is more efficient.

      Sorry, you are wrong. The Tiguan was the first to receive this engine in the US, and the others have followed. It's really easy to see, too (besides the engine cover): the dip stick is in a different location. Just go to any dealer and pop the hood. As others have said, it is completely revised --- not just an update.

      You are probably confusing Audi's version with variable valve lift (which indeed will only arrive with the new A4) with that for VWs, which has been out for months.

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    24. 07-06-2008 07:32 PM #24
      And with all those modifications...it's no more powerful than the old 2.0t. Ha! screw efficiency, I want power!!!

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      07-07-2008 10:26 AM #25
      Quote, originally posted by shipo »

      Agreed.


      Uhhh, gotta disagree with you on this one. As far as I know, there isn't even a single interchangable component between the U.S. spec FSI and the U.S. spec TSI.

      Depends how you look at it.. Audi still labels them as FSI so they would be 100% interchangeable


    26. 07-26-2008 07:47 PM #26
      Quote, originally posted by sump22 »
      Thanks. I found this too.

      These comments aren't surprising.

      As an owner of 2.0T FSI, I was concerned about VW dropping the engine 2.5 years into its production. As an engineer, however, I'm aware that the first generation of a new product is often a patchwork of re-use and new concepts. The result is something that works, but is not optimized for cost or manufacturability. The second gen is a typically a refinement of the first that 'cleans up' the design and address those issues, as well as short term reliability (to minimize the cost of warranty returns).

      The potential problem for the 2.0T TSI, however, is that it's a complete re-design. It's not a refinement of something that already works. As a result, VW doesn't really know what new failure modes may have been introduced. So I wouldn't call the owners of this engine 'lucky' until its proven itself. The 2.0T FSI has received lots of accolades, so the only reason a company would do a complete re-design is cost. It's either too expensive to build, or VW is aware of a problem that could cost it in terms of warranty repairs.


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      07-28-2008 06:26 AM #27
      True in general, but don't forget that North America is just the tip of the iceberg - we only receive an abysmal fraction of the cars and engines produced.

      In other words, this redesign was planned and due, but seems a bit early and unexpected due to the slight delay of the upcoming MkVI (for which it would have been concurrent, otherwise).

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    28. Senior Member syntrix's Avatar
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      07-29-2008 08:57 AM #28
      Quote, originally posted by chris@revotechnik »

      Depends how you look at it.. Audi still labels them as FSI so they would be 100% interchangeable

      Are any parts interchangeable with a 2002 BMW 530i? I didn't know they ya a TSI or TFSI engine. Why is it called a 530? Shouldn't it be called a 520TT FTSFSI?

      Is shipo saying that the spark plugs have changed between the engines?

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    29. 07-29-2008 09:43 AM #29
      Quote, originally posted by syntrix »
      Is shipo saying that the spark plugs have changed between the engines?

      No not necessarily, that said, I wouldn't be at all surprised if they were different given the change in the compression ratio.

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      07-29-2008 09:45 AM #30
      Quote, originally posted by shipo »

      No not necessarily, that said, I wouldn't be at all surprised if they were different given the change in the compression ratio.

      Can you verify that? I must have misinterpreted what you said:

      Quote, originally posted by shipo »

      Sorry, the CCTA engine is a complete clean sheet redesign from the ground on up. The only common components these two engines share are air, fuel, coolant and oil.
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    31. 07-29-2008 10:48 AM #31
      That previous quote of mine was targeted more at the hard points (ummm, and software/firmware too) of the engine and not at things like filters (although the oil filter is decidedly different), plug wires, spark plugs, and other components that are common to many different engines.

      As for the specific spark plug used in the TSI engine, no, I have no proof that it is a different plug than the one used in the FSI, however, if I had to place a bet on the issue, I'd bet that they're different.


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      07-29-2008 02:28 PM #32
      Quote, originally posted by shipo »
      That previous quote of mine was targeted more at the hard points (ummm, and software/firmware too) of the engine and not at things like filters (although the oil filter is decidedly different), plug wires, spark plugs.......

      the oil filter for the TSI, as you may know is on the top of the engine. from looking at it and thinking about changing the oil would seem messy....but given that you have to let the car sit a few before changing oil...based on gravity...oil would drain from the vertical filter right? i havent changed my oil yet (just over 2800 miles)...


      + the filter looks EXACTLY like the ones from the MKIV GTi's.
      i'm not sure what the ones on the FSI looked like.

      discuss.

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      What's a TSI?

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    33. 07-29-2008 03:17 PM #33
      The oil filter on the TSI motor has a sleeve integrated with a trick check valve arrangement that allows the oil to drain back into the pan only when you start to unscrew the filter. On a different board I saw a write-up from a VW tech that said that when he pulled the oil filter out, he didn't spill a drop of oil.

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      07-29-2008 04:25 PM #34
      Quote, originally posted by shipo »
      The oil filter on the TSI motor has a sleeve integrated with a trick check valve arrangement that allows the oil to drain back into the pan only when you start to unscrew the filter. On a different board I saw a write-up from a VW tech that said that when he pulled the oil filter out, he didn't spill a drop of oil.


      that's....BRILLIANT!

      FS: 2008 - TSI - GTI PARTOUT - Horsham, PA
      What's a TSI?

      Formerly ShippensburgGTI

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      07-29-2008 06:04 PM #35
      I'd start changing the oil myself again, but I got three years maintenance paid thrown in when I bought my car!

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